Heard another idiotic HD commercial on WZLX yesterday

[KB1OKL]

In 1969, the country was waiting for an expansion of repetitive-music AM stations. All across the USA, "progressive rock" stations started up. It gave REASON to switch to FM.

Bob, I'm surprised to hear that from you, of all people! Your FM predecessor, the original WJIB, was the first FM radio station that was very popular. BCN had finally started to catch on by around 74 or so with prog rock (IIRC), but was eclipsed in 75 by F-105 (CHR/disco from Ron Robin; the CHR/rock came by 77) and COZ (arena rock, but with some room for prog rock; the uber-tight hard rock format came in 80 with John Sebastian), with ROR (oldies) and EEI-FM (true soft rock, NOT AC), then BOS (disco from Ron Robin), BCN (the strike and after) and Kiss (disco/CHR from Sunny Joe) followed in that order. HUE (until its last pre-Kat/ZLX book in Fall 84) and Wish (until it backed away from pure easy listening) never even made the top 10 (Magic beat both of those stations by Spring 82); even EEI-FM's successor Hitradio made the top 10. By 85, there were only 4 AMs doing well: WEEI (news; now WEZE), WRKO (talk), WHDH (pop hits; now WEEI) and WBZ (pop hits).

WBCN was one of the shots that was heard around the world, it was IIRC only the third progressive rock station in the country and ushered in a whole new era. There may have been other market forces at work but WBCN was the only NEW format that drove the change. WCOZ topped WBCN for a little while in the ratings but eventually died out as it was too tightly play listed compared to WBCN.

 

[KB1OKL]

I'm just curious, "Don Juan" Guilmette - I let it go the first time, but you stated it again in a subsequent post.
In which parallel universe did 8-track tapes prevail over cassettes as a consumer product?

Would that be kind of like the Oz where you live, where defending a successful business like my radio station, the staff people and their families who work here for a living, serving the public with a valuable audio service, contributing to the tax base and building business for our many advertisers - is viewed as a BAD thing?

You know: like how you sneer about how speaking out against HD interference that is injuring us, is REALLY due to my "vested interest." (Whatever THAT means.)

It's been noted before. For some guy who constantly protests that you're impartial about HD, you certainly spend a lot of time and effort ferociously attacking its critics. Or maybe you're just another guy who comes here because you like the sound of hearing yourself argue??

The 8 track machine was a flash in the pan which was very briefly available in car systems. I had one in 1971, within a couple of years IIRC they had gone the way of the dodo and were replaced by cassette players which were still around 20 years later, cassette players overwhelmingly prevailed over 8 track machines, just as analog radio overwhelmingly prevails over iBlock. At least 8 track players had their very brief day in the sun but once you had one you never bought another one. The same is true for iBlock but it isn't selling.

 

[Don Juan]

I'm just curious, "Don Juan" Guilmette - I let it go the first time, but you stated it again in a subsequent post.
In which parallel universe did 8-track tapes prevail over cassettes as a consumer product?

In the end it didn't prevail but for awhile it was THE way to listen to pre-recorded tape in the car. Cassettes lagged behind.

You know: like how you sneer about how speaking out against HD interference that is injuring us,

Maybe you missed it in your zeal, but numerous times I have said that I understand and feel for your predicament. I would expect no less of a enthusiastic defense of your situation. Your station is your baby

For some guy who constantly protests that you're impartial about HD, you certainly spend a lot of time and effort ferociously attacking its critics. Or maybe you're just another guy who comes here because you like the sound of hearing yourself argue??

Who knows...if there were 12 hobbyist here touting HD as the second coming and total rejuvenation of the readio industry...I might just be giving THEM a dose of reality as well.

due to my "vested interest." (Whatever THAT means.)

You could always look it up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vested+interest?jss=0

 

[Don Juan]

I had one in 1971, within a couple of years IIRC they had gone the way of the dodo and were replaced by cassette players which were still around 20 years later, cassette players overwhelmingly prevailed over 8 track machines, just as analog radio overwhelmingly prevails over iBlock. At least 8 track players had their very brief day in the sun but once you had one you never bought another one. The same is true for iBlock but it isn't selling.

The public overwhelmingly went for 8-Track tapes...even when cassettes were available. Not sure why.. Virtually every car that had a tape player at that time...had an 8-Track. If you look at stereo catalogs at the time, every "hi-fi" or "stereo" had some way to stick an 8-Track into it. Not sure why this was overwhelmingly embraced at the time. I hated 8-Tracks from the getgo. Maybe it was the ease of no rewinding..maybe the industry pushed it harder...price....? It appears that the public perception of cassettes as something that went into small tape recorders...portables. I'm sure it was many things.

If you were a geek like us...you probably preferred the recordability of cassettes. ...and in time the public switched over to cassettes. (Maybe it was the 8-Tracks ability to jam that did them in!) ;-)

Why was 8-Track so popular? Who knows! Did the public eventually move onto something they thought had better benefits? Of course, the always do.

I mentioned before that Sony's Betamax was thought to be technically superior. Almost every electronic review magazine raved about the quality of Beta over VHS. However, the public went for the lower quality VHS. Was it due to the extended record time available to VHS? Was it the fact that the machines were slightly cheaper? Was it that they wanted to trade tapes with friends?

Whatever the reasons for their choice, it wasn't for the technical reasons that the purists touted.

Like HD...there are many factors involved. Sometimes there is no logic behind the consumer choices. (Even though many people keep trying to reduce the reasoning for technology acceptance or bombs to one simple thing...for isntance "The emergence of free-form FM".)

 

[bigtom101]

The public overwhelmingly went for 8-Track tapes...even when cassettes were available. Not sure why.. Virtually every car that had a tape player at that time...had an 8-Track. If you look at stereo catalogs at the time, every "hi-fi" or "stereo" had some way to stick an 8-Track into it. Not sure why this was overwhelmingly embraced at the time. I hated 8-Tracks from the getgo. Maybe it was the ease of no rewinding..maybe the industry pushed it harder...price....? It appears that the public perception of cassettes as something that went into small tape recorders...portables. I'm sure it was many things.

Not to get too off topic, but the "Compact Cassette" was released here in the US in 1964, with the 1st pre-recorded tapes coming out here in 1969. I remember thumbing thru the owners manual for my paps 1974 Cadillac Sedan deVille - an 8 track was offered (with FM stereo on every radio!), but no stereo cassette tapes. On 1979 Caddy's, you could get either 8 track or cassette (with CB too) and ETR on every radio. In one of the back rooms, he had a bunch of old newspaper ads lying around from the early 70's - and the music ads either had 8 tracks or vinyl shown, no cassettes.

Quite frankly, I dont know whats worse - the FCC in the 80's choosing the laissez faire route and letting the market decide the de-facto standard for AM stereo, and causing mass confusion and inaction on the part of most manufactures, or hand picking a system and running with it no matter what like they seem to have done from the 90's on. Quite frankly, with the FCC wanting to use a hybrid system on the same frequencies as the analog channels, your choices are limited on how to accomplish the task without pissing everyone off. FM eXtra is nifty, but since its just a digital subcarrier, the range is limited to solid FM stereo coverage. DAB/DAB+ would be great....but the US military has the L band reserved for its uses. And since the FCC likes home grown technology...for whatever reason....we have HD Radio(tm).

HD could fail like AM ST and end up on the junkheap. But only if stations don't use it to its full potential and promote it - in FM hybrid mode, you have 2 stereo channels and 1 mono channel to fill with programming. Or to lease to someone who wants to program it! Most stations only mention HD in the legal ID...and thats it. At least Loren & Wally talk about HD whenever they have Jim Berry the gadget guy on, which is more than I can say for any other station out there.

I think I just might have to send out for another C-QUAM am st part 15 exciter to play around with.

 

[KB1OKL]

Who knows...if there were 12 hobbyist here touting HD as the second coming and total rejuvenation of the radio industry...I might just be giving THEM a dose of reality as well.

Are there that many? ;D And surely it must be a hobby or an avocation as it certainly isn't making anyone any money (except of course for ibiquity).

 

[Don Juan]

Are there that many? ;D

There are as many as HD-haters...except they're not as noisy. ;-)

And surely it must be a hobby or an avocation as it certainly isn't making anyone any money (except of course for ibiquity).

It could start making money tomorrow is stations wanted. They are choosing not to.

 

[Savage]

"HD could start making money tomorrow (if) stations wanted." Really? Amazing!! JUST LIKE THAT!!!

(Hard to fathom, isn't it? All those eager HD operators just sitting there...leaving all that HD revenue piled up under the table. It's obvious, yes? Experienced professional radio pros (presumably with "vested interests" which is an interesting concept I just learned about) JUST AREN'T INTERESTED IN ALL THAT CASH from HD operations just waiting for Don Juan Guillmette to scoop up and put in buckets.)

Tell you what: why don't you head out and hit the streets tomorrow and try selling advertising on a totally unrated service, with coverage problems, utilizing a technical standard nobody in the general population understands or cares about, for a nonexistent audience. And don't forget: the economy sucks and is likely to continue sucking for a considerable time.

Please, by all means, report back here and tell us how much revenue you've generated.

 

[Don Juan]

"HD could start making money tomorrow (if) stations wanted." Really? Amazing!! JUST LIKE THAT!!!

Tell you what: why don't you head out and hit the streets tomorrow and try selling advertising on a totally unrated service, with coverage problems, utilizing a technical standard nobody in the general population understands or cares about, for a nonexistent audience. And don't forget: the economy sucks and is likely to continue sucking for a considerable time.

Please, by all means, report back here and tell us how much revenue you've generated.

You are really shortsighted aren't you.

If stations wanted to....they could sell the time to foreign language or religious broadcasters....or to any group who have a special constituency that would/could purchase radios. It would be much cheaper than buying the typical lease-time staton....they would no doubt get more time...and the stations could start billing by the end of the week.

They could probably lease programming time to one of the smaller college stations. WUMB would probably LOVE to be on the HD-2 of a full signal in Boston.

(Hard to fathom, isn't it? All those eager HD operators just sitting there...leaving all that HD revenue piled up under the table. It's obvious, yes? Experienced professional radio pros (presumably with "vested interests" which is an interesting concept I just learned about) JUST AREN'T INTERESTED IN ALL THAT CASH from HD operations just waiting for Don Juan Guillmette to scoop up and put in buckets.)

Operators have chosen not to sell time....in order to promote the medium and technology and put the best light on it.

I think I'm beginning to see why Mark Manuelian doesn't return your calls.

 

[KB1OKL]

(Hard to fathom, isn't it? All those eager HD operators just sitting there...leaving all that HD revenue piled up under the table. It's obvious, yes? Experienced professional radio pros (presumably with "vested interests" which is an interesting concept I just learned about) JUST AREN'T INTERESTED IN ALL THAT CASH from HD operations just waiting for Don Juan Guillmette to scoop up and put in buckets.)

Operators have chosen not to sell time....in order to promote the medium and technology and put the best light on it.

I never realized that broadcasters were that altruistic and/or If anyone here believes that last post I have some time to sell them on an HD-2 near you!

 

[Don Juan]

Operators have chosen not to sell time....in order to promote the medium and technology and put the best light on it.

I never realized that broadcasters were that altruistic and/or If anyone here believes that last post I have some time to sell them on an HD-2 near you!

I believe it is/was all part of the alliance's stated effort, do you read the trades?

Why, do you know of stations trying to sell time on HD-2? I don't know of any.

 

[Savage]

"...they COULD sell time to religious or ethnic broadcasters...." "...it WOULD be much cheaper than buying the typical lease-time station...." "they WOULD no doubt get more time...." "....WUMB WOULD probably LOVE to be on an HD-2...." Etc., etc.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Know why HD-2 and HD-3 aren't being sold? Because they CAN'T. The service provides no value. No audience and not much prospect of much of audience any time soon: no interest, no matter how cheap it is. If you don't offer value to your advertisers, you're essentially screwing them by asking for money for a worthless product. Do that very long, and you'll be out of business.

It's obvious you've never sold anything - in particular, anything having to do with radio. So spare us the lecture about how to "sell HD."

I don't try to call Mark Manuelian, but the fact you gratuitously bring this non sequitur up in the middle of an ad-sales debate does strongly suggest that your aggressively negative comments vented on this poster in particular indicate you're trying to suck up to WBZ publicly here. Maybe you work there...or want to someday??

 

[Savage]

I forgot: Don, you're right - few if any stations are trying to sell time on HD-2.

The reason is: it's a waste of time. There's no audience.

Most stations are having challenges selling their main channel inventory. Diluting the sales effort by chasing prospects for HD 2 & 3 subs will only make the fiscal problems worse, and could alienate good clients by trying to hook them into a questionable, if not worthless, product.

 

[bigtom101]

If stations wanted to....they could sell the time to foreign language or religious broadcasters....or to any group who have a special constituency that would/could purchase radios. It would be much cheaper than buying the typical lease-time staton....they would no doubt get more time...and the stations could start billing by the end of the week.

They could probably lease programming time to one of the smaller college stations. WUMB would probably LOVE to be on the HD-2 of a full signal in Boston.

Emmis is doing just that with WQHT-HD2 in NYC, except to some Asian broadcaster. I'd give my eyeteeth to put my college station on a HD2 or 3 - 20 watts doesn't go too far unfortunately. Its treating the multicast channels like a SCA service, but if it makes money, its a good thing.

 

[Don Juan]

"...they COULD sell time to religious or ethnic broadcasters...." "...it WOULD be much cheaper than buying the typical lease-time station...." "they WOULD no doubt get more time...." "....WUMB WOULD probably LOVE to be on an HD-2...." Etc., etc.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Know why HD-2 and HD-3 aren't being sold? Because they CAN'T. The service provides no value. No audience and not much prospect of much of audience any time soon: no interest, no matter how cheap it is. If you don't offer value to your advertisers, you're essentially screwing them by asking for money for a worthless product. Do that very long, and you'll be out of business.

Do you know how to read? Apparently you are too busy spouting your talking points you can't hear anything else. The ideas I brought up had very little to do with advertising, per se. Do you listen to anyone's response before you start spouting your anit-HD venom? Did you read BigTom's responses...or do you just go into insult mode automatically?

I don't try to call Mark Manuelian, but the fact you gratuitously bring this non sequitur up in the middle of an ad-sales debate does strongly suggest that your aggressively negative comments vented on this poster in particular indicate you're trying to suck up to WBZ publicly here. Maybe you work there...or want to someday??

I read an article about your situation, where you are quoted as saying Mark Manuelian after being very helpful, stopped returning your calls. I think we see the reason.

It's obvious you've never sold anything - in particular, anything having to do with radio.

You'd be surprised.

but the fact you gratuitously bring this non sequitur up in the middle of an ad-sales debate does strongly suggest that your aggressively negative comments vented on this poster in particular indicate you're trying to suck up to WBZ publicly here. Maybe you work there...or want to someday??

I bring it up because I see how you deal with people who have a different position. Your comments get personal and you get full of piss and vinegar.

I'm at the point where I don't have to suck up to anyone anymore.

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

I have been following this thread with interest. Only now do I feel
the need to weigh in. Brokered time, on commercial radio, only works
on a large scale, when the programming can be received by the general
public on their existing equipment - not via HD, not via subcarriers.
HD radio is like the chicken and the egg - which comes first? Sales of
equipment cannot grow unless there are programming options available
to the buyers, but programming cannot grow unless there is an audience
out there to receive the programming. I feel that it is an interim stopgap,
and will fade away, without much fanfare, much like AM stereo (WLYN pulled
the plug on that, a couple of years ago...), quad FM, 8-tracks and DAT.

Oh yea - I bought a Heathkit ham rig (SB-100) from Mark Manuelian back in the day,
when he was a student at Brandeis. Six degrees of separation? ;D

73's all,
de WA1RFF

 

[KB1OKL]

Oh yea - I bought a Heathkit ham rig (SB-100) from Mark Manuelian back in the day,
when he was a student at Brandeis. Six degrees of separation? ;D

73's all,
de WA1RFF

Was it modified to hog 50 Kc of bandwidth? ;D

 

[WLYNWAZNgm]

Nope, totally stock.

 

[Rusty Muck]

I bring it up because I see how you deal with people who have a different position. Your comments get personal and you get full of piss and vinegar.

Because you are dead wrong.

I'm at the point where I don't have to suck up to anyone anymore.

Except to Diane Warren and the HD Radio Alliance. Which you always have.

 

[Don Juan]

I bring it up because I see how you deal with people who have a different position. Your comments get personal and you get full of piss and vinegar.

Because you are dead wrong.

Well, that statement should settle it then, right? (Apparently another poster who can't have a discussion...BTW.....do you have any credentials for making such an authoritative statement? I forgot, you studied radio. You've never worked in radio.[EDIT-inflammatory content]

I'm at the point where I don't have to suck up to anyone anymore.

Except to Diane Warren and the HD Radio Alliance. Which you always have.

I could care less what Diane Warren and the Alliance think.