Hi-Fi AM demodulator testing w/IBOC

[Tom Wells]

I modified an existing Bendix auto radio for wide band response and have done some testing recently in the Chicago area, from city-contour levels to base-of-tower levels, and drove to St. Louis checking the dx.
The radio had two high-filter capacitors removed, was peaked in the IF section, and a 3-point alignment done at 1650, 600 and 910 khz.
I also added a 60-db notch filter for the 10kc whistle, so as to better judge the results.
I was particularly watching 670 WSCR (IBOC) , WGN 720, WBBM 780 (IBOC), and WLS 890
Locally, the best sounding AM 50 kw is WLS 890, with perhaps 10kc audio.
WGN 720 follows with perhaps 7.5 kc audio, and finally of interest is WBBM am 780 running IBOC.
WBBM and WSCR are using the brickwall 5kc filter, and haf mush difficldy difinguishing va vowlfs.
And they sound as thought they have a compressed air-line of significant size leaking in the room with the announcers.
This is after ABSOLUTELY doing my best to center-tune to avoid the hiss.
They are interfering with their own signal to detriment. It's hard enough to distinguish sibilant noises, and then they add a big HISS!
At tower-base (2 miles away from WGN and WBBM) there is a 50kc-wide splash of noise for the IBOCs with 10kc of
audio (5kc demodulated) but no significant intermodulation byproducts into the non-IBOCs.
Yes, that's right, while even widely differing frequencies can combine to create a new third frequency with irritating interference, I do not find the hiss of IBOCs showing up in unexpected places on the dial....yet.
The good news is that the carriers of non-IBOCs are still a bed of silence, at least with a radio with a tuned RF amp section.

While driving the 300 miles to St. Louis in daytime, I find the IBOC sidebands to be objectionable to a distance of 125 miles. After that distance, adjacent stations have little to fear from IBOC noise.
I doubt enough high-frequency (wide sideband) data is present beyond 125 milesto demodulate reliably.
The analog signals were "good" to 200 miles, and listenable with ease to 250 miles, and could be "copied" the whole 300 miles.
Ummm, I thought more was supposed to be better.
What did make a difference was that the Non-IBOC stations, with higher frequency audio were much more distinct and
easy to understand, than those with limited response, especially as distance increased ( daytime).
At night, higher frequencies are less suppressed.

Locally, I would like to listen to AM 640, but they are "splashed" by WTMJ 620 and WSCR 670.
I have no idea where they are, and don't care.
I would like to listen to WLBK 1360 in La Salle, Ill and it is "splashed" by AM 1390 in Chicago.
I would like to be able to listen to WLW 700, but it is splashed by AM 670.
I would like to be able to hear a song on WRLL AM 1690, but I keep getting distracted by wondering where the air leak or vacuum leak is.

I wish I had the ability to send y'all a CD with the Hi-Fi results.

And whover thought Sangean made a good sounding radio, WHEW! the AF section in a Sangean makes almost as much noise and hiss as an IBOC signal. I bought one back in the 1980's 150khz-30Mhz, and the AM detector is such a piece of
.... that I only use it as a frequency counter for zero-beating.

Y'all git cha a crystal radio, with high-frequency response headphones, and listen to what a CLEANLY detected signal
sounds like, and you'll see why IBOC-AM is uncalled for.

 

[calstymes]

Thank you, Tom! I wish I had your engineering skill set.

I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck. Corporate alignment makes for some interesting pillow talk.

The large conglomerates are supporting this like the good team players they need to be for having a significant financial interest in this technology but at the local level, the stations themselves are quietly very annoyed that they have been forced into this.

Unfortunately, they will never take positions in opposition to their parent company positions that HD/IBOC for AM stations is wholesome and good for the listening public.

Too bad. You get what you pay for, I guess.

 

[I.B. Iquity]

"I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck"


cartel - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business.
2. a coalition of political or special-interest groups having a common cause, as to encourage the passage of a certain law.
3. a written agreement between belligerents, esp. for the exchange of prisoners.
4. a written challenge to a duel

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face). Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups. Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here. (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too.

 

[calstymes]

I.B. Iquity declared:

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face).

You're right. It does. But they deserve it. They have not played nicely. They have stepped on everyone and anyone else who had any competing technology which offered a superior engineering solution than theirs was. And they paid LOTS of money to suppress that superior technology.

Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups.

It is nevertheless a cartel which includes some of the larger radio broadcasting companies as well as several big-money speculator/investors who are now looking for a return on their investments and has set out to squash all competing technology.

It's all about Ibiquity being able to go public so that the large investors in it can get their ROI. Time is running out. This is why the push is on. Mr. Struble is determined to have that offering. Once that happens, the IBOC supporters are right, this technology will be here to stay because it will have become a "done deal". If nothing else, Mr. Struble is an expert salesman and knows how to raise the big money.

And none of the above has anything whatsoever to do with offering the best possible technology to the public.

Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too).

Yes, that would be a good idear. Fortunately, I think I would skweek by in the English and speeling test department.

 

[I.B. Iquity]

"You're right. It does. But they deserve it. They have not played nicely. They have stepped on everyone and anyone else who had any competing technology which offered a superior engineering solution than theirs was. And they paid LOTS of money to suppress that superior technology."

Could you tell us who's technology they've supressed? I only know of two competing compatible systems, neither of which will work on both AM & FM and both, at least at this time rely on the analogue component to exist. Neither that I know of, is offering receivers which consumers can purchase. I keep reading grand promises but so far its only been words and nothing more. I also know that Mr. Kahn has a law suit against everyone and anything that moves. I wonder how that is coming along?

 

[calstymes]

I.B. Iquity exclaimed:

"You're right. It does. But they deserve it. They have not played nicely. They have stepped on everyone and anyone else who had any competing technology which offered a superior engineering solution than theirs was. And they paid LOTS of money to suppress that superior technology."

Could you tell us who's technology they've supressed?

Yes, I could. But I won't. That would divulge some industry facts which are not well known and would probably get me in a bit of twubble (sp! ).

I will tell you, however, that the competing technology has been discussed on this message board. So it's up to you to figure it out. But with all the threads that lunatic starts which trash this message board with ridiculous Amazon statistics that absolutely nobody cares about, you might be hard pressed to find it.

I also know that Mr. Kahn has a law suit against everyone and anything that moves. I wonder how that is coming along?

I wouldn't know. And no, I am not referring to his technology or anything that he says on his web site.

 

[I.B. Iquity]

Well, if you are talking about technology which is both compatible with the existing analogue on both AM & FM, I'd love to learn more. No one on here knows you. Why not sign on using a different name if you are concerned and let us know what you are talking about. Is there any place this technology can be demo'd?

 

[calstymes]

I.B. Iquity suggested:

Well, if you are talking about technology which is both compatible with the existing analogue on both AM & FM, I'd love to learn more. No one on here knows you. Why not sign on using a different name if you are concerned and let us know what you are talking about. Is there any place this technology can be demo'd?

No I can't tell you. As you know there is no current competing technology in the U.S. that is compatible with the existing analogue on BOTH AM and FM.

But there might have been a different algorithm entirely to generate and detect IBOC had not the cartel decided that its way was the almighty's way.

And on a more personal note, you've gotten much nicer since you used to be autopaint-1. It's a pleasure to have this pleasant discourse with you.

 

[PLL]

"It's all about Ibiquity being able to go public so that the large investors in it can get their ROI. Time is running out. This is why the push is on. Mr. Struble is determined to have that offering. Once that happens, the IBOC supporters are right, this technology will be here to stay because it will have become a "done deal". If nothing else, Mr. Struble is an expert salesman and knows how to raise the big money."

Time has already run out - there are too many competing technologies and new ones are taking off every day. iBiquity has not been able to provide ROI and it has been seven years waiting for investors. The public has shown very little interest in HD Radio, and timing couldn't be worse, with the emergence of WiMax to enable Internet Radio to portable devices. Many cell phone providers (Sprint, Cingular, etc.) provide 50 radio channels, for as litte as $2.99/month (Clear Channel is providing 100 on Sprint). Automobile manufacturers are not interested in HD Radio either - just high-end BMWs.

 

[IBOCRocks]

"It's all about Ibiquity being able to go public so that the large investors in it can get their ROI. Time is running out. This is why the push is on. Mr. Struble is determined to have that offering. Once that happens, the IBOC supporters are right, this technology will be here to stay because it will have become a "done deal". If nothing else, Mr. Struble is an expert salesman and knows how to raise the big money."

Time has already run out - there are too many competing technologies and new ones are taking off every day. iBiquity has not been able to provide ROI and it has been seven years waiting for investors. The public has shown very little interest in HD Radio, and timing couldn't be worse, with the emergence of WiMax to enable Internet Radio to portable devices. Many cell phone providers (Sprint, Cingular, etc.) provide 50 radio channels, for as litte as $2.99/month (Clear Channel is providing 100 on Sprint). Automobile manufacturers are not interested in HD Radio either - just high-end BMWs.

Thanks, SayNoToIBOC!

 

[PLL]

Steven Hill is right-on-the-money:

"HD Radio: too little, too late"

The problem lies not in the details of the marketing campaign, but in the deficiency of the value proposition for listeners.

Satellite has succeeded (sort of) not because they spent $200M on promotion (they did) or executed the rollout perfectly (they didn't) but because the service itself offered listeners a better value proposition: a cable system sized banquet of radio channels (including dozens of neglected music formats), little or no advertising, 100% coverage of areas that were underserved by terrestrial radio, and a truly national service.

So the cost of the new hardware and the subscription was compensated by a strong, unambiguous value proposition: more content, desired content, uninterrupted content, national coverage. It all adds up to being worth the $12.95 a month for many millions of people.

What about online radio? Now you have tens of thousands of channels: a mind-boggling array of niche and specialty content in addition to deep choice of mainstream formats. In many cases, you have fewer or zero commercials. You have on-demand access and deep archives. You have asynchronous subscription delivery, aka podcasting. And you have ubiquitous wired access, with wide-area wireless Internet rolling out starting last year on the 3G cellular nets. And now the hardware cost is rolled into your smart cell phone, which is being upgraded every 2-3 years on average anyway.

One more benefit that's not user-centric but should get the attention of broadcasters: online provides a more flexible, more powerful platform for delivering advertising. Ask Google.

Face it, folks...when you add it up, HD Radio as a platform will never be competitive with satellite or Internet radio on a value for value basis for the end user.

All you can hope is that AM and FM will decline slowly enough that radio stations and producers can adapt to new media delivery methods while they continue to operate their old franchises. HD radio is not a new method: it's good old single channel point to multipoint local broadcasting in digital drag. It can barely provide time-shifting of favorite shows, much less the other listener/viewer value enhancements that are driving the Internet media explosion.

HD will fail to get a meaningful level of uptake, and it will waste more time and money in the process. Incumbents are stubborn that way. Broadcasters who access the situation correctly already have better places to put their development energy. I'm really sorry for the folks at iBiquity. They've worked long and hard, but the bar has been raised beyond the ability of conventional broadcasting to compensate.

HD radio is just too little and too late.

 

[IBOCRocks]

Steven Hill is right-on-the-money:

"HD Radio: too little, too late"

The problem lies not in the details of the marketing campaign, but in the deficiency of the value proposition for listeners.

Satellite has succeeded (sort of) not because they spent $200M on promotion (they did) or executed the rollout perfectly (they didn't) but because the service itself offered listeners a better value proposition: a cable system sized banquet of radio channels (including dozens of neglected music formats), little or no advertising, 100% coverage of areas that were underserved by terrestrial radio, and a truly national service.

So the cost of the new hardware and the subscription was compensated by a strong, unambiguous value proposition: more content, desired content, uninterrupted content, national coverage. It all adds up to being worth the $12.95 a month for many millions of people.

What about online radio? Now you have tens of thousands of channels: a mind-boggling array of niche and specialty content in addition to deep choice of mainstream formats. In many cases, you have fewer or zero commercials. You have on-demand access and deep archives. You have asynchronous subscription delivery, aka podcasting. And you have ubiquitous wired access, with wide-area wireless Internet rolling out starting last year on the 3G cellular nets. And now the hardware cost is rolled into your smart cell phone, which is being upgraded every 2-3 years on average anyway.

One more benefit that's not user-centric but should get the attention of broadcasters: online provides a more flexible, more powerful platform for delivering advertising. Ask Google.

Face it, folks...when you add it up, HD Radio as a platform will never be competitive with satellite or Internet radio on a value for value basis for the end user.

All you can hope is that AM and FM will decline slowly enough that radio stations and producers can adapt to new media delivery methods while they continue to operate their old franchises. HD radio is not a new method: it's good old single channel point to multipoint local broadcasting in digital drag. It can barely provide time-shifting of favorite shows, much less the other listener/viewer value enhancements that are driving the Internet media explosion.

HD will fail to get a meaningful level of uptake, and it will waste more time and money in the process. Incumbents are stubborn that way. Broadcasters who access the situation correctly already have better places to put their development energy. I'm really sorry for the folks at iBiquity. They've worked long and hard, but the bar has been raised beyond the ability of conventional broadcasting to compensate.

HD radio is just too little and too late.

SayNo - still quoting other people's work...

Plus, again, it's an opinion piece.

 

[I.B. Iquity]

If that is your conclusion too what are you worried about? Let it run its course and die. Until that happens IBOC developement will continue. I know that at least a few more exciters will be turned on soon.

 

[PLL]

Stations can turn on all the IBOC exciters they want, but it won't make any difference.

 

[I.B. Iquity]

"Stations can turn on all the IBOC exciters they want, but it won't make any difference."

So, what's the problem? If it makes no difference, why are you so concerned?

 

[PLL]

"If that is your conclusion too what are you worried about? Let it run its course and die. Until that happens IBOC developement will continue. I know that at least a few more exciters will be turned on soon."

It has been rumored, that iBiquity is in serious financial trouble, and has halted all current and future development on IBOC - this wouldn't surprise me at all, and would make me very happy ! If you look at their "careers" section, they only have one available position, and that is in New Jersey:

http://ibiquity.com/about_us/ibiquity_careers

Uh oh !

 

[SUPERCASTER]

"I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck"


cartel - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business.
2. a coalition of political or special-interest groups having a common cause, as to encourage the passage of a certain law.
3. a written agreement between belligerents, esp. for the exchange of prisoners.
4. a written challenge to a duel

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face). Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups. Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here. (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too.

The HD Alliance fits at least a couple of your cartel definitions.

 

[IBOCRocks]

"If that is your conclusion too what are you worried about? Let it run its course and die. Until that happens IBOC developement will continue. I know that at least a few more exciters will be turned on soon."

It has been rumored, that iBiquity is in serious financial trouble, and has halted all current and future development on IBOC - this wouldn't surprise me at all, and would make me very happy ! If you look at their "careers" section, they only have one available position, and that is in New Jersey:

http://ibiquity.com/about_us/ibiquity_careers

Uh oh !

Uh oh? What's wrong, SayNoToIBOC?

 

[autopaint-1]

"The HD Alliance fits at least a couple of your cartel definitions."

Please continue. Show me how these definitions apply and go into some proven detail. Use facts which I can investigate and respond to.

 

[zumahans]

----> Please continue. Show me how these definitions apply and go into some proven detail. Use facts which I can investigate and respond to.


Cartel: a combination of producers of any product joined together to control its production, an association by agreement of companies having common interests, designed to prevent competition and allocate markets, and to promote the exchange of knowledge resulting from scientific and technical research and stadardization of products. - Blacks Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, p. 195.

HD Alliance is made up of the standard suspects: Univision radio, ABC, CBS, Clear Channel, Beaseley, all the big players. - http://www.hdradio.com/press_room.php#alliancemembers

Legal fact: cartels are not by themselves illegal in the United States, there are many specifically allowed, and U.S. anti-cartel laws are very weak. Source: Callmann on Unfair Competition, Trademarks and Monopolies (4th Edition), Part I. Basic Concepts: Chapter 1. Protection Against Unfair Competition , pp. 13-15.

(I'm studying law, this business law course is this semester).