Hi-Fi AM demodulator testing w/IBOC

[IBOCRocks]

----->Hold up. Adapt or die? According to you it's going to die either way.

------>First it's "nobody wants HD",

No listeners.

-----> then it's "you'll die if you don't have it".

For the stations.

------->Which is it? A dead technology,

Dead on arrival, no consumer demand.

----->or a technology you need or you're dead?

For dinosaur radio stations, anxious to avoid the coming evolution.

You really haven't answered the question, however.

If this technology is DOA, where is the threat to stations that don't implement it?

I realize that really that's not the point, but this is one of my peeves with the anti-IBOC argument. Either it's a dead technology (and therefore harmless) or it's not (and we should discuss the potiential ramifications).

 

[dbdigital]

"I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck"


cartel - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business.
2. a coalition of political or special-interest groups having a common cause, as to encourage the passage of a certain law.
3. a written agreement between belligerents, esp. for the exchange of prisoners.
4. a written challenge to a duel

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face). Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups. Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here. (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too.

To quote Archie Bunker: "Ah, Jeez!" We've had this lecture before from the self-styled papalnuncio of the radio business.

Here's a definition of cartel from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"car·tel A combination of independent business organizations formed to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members." A synonym for cartel as provided by Roget's Thesaurus is...(drum roll, please) MONOPOLY. Don't take my word for it, look it up.

Sounds like Ibiquity and friends to me.

db

 

[IBOCRocks]

"I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck"


cartel - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business.
2. a coalition of political or special-interest groups having a common cause, as to encourage the passage of a certain law.
3. a written agreement between belligerents, esp. for the exchange of prisoners.
4. a written challenge to a duel

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face). Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups. Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here. (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too.

To quote Archie Bunker: "Ah, Jeez!" We've had this lecture before from the papalnuncio of the radio business.

Here's a definition of cartel from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"car·tel A combination of independent business organizations formed to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members." A synonym for cartel as provided by Roget's Thesaurus is...(drum roll, please) MONOPOLY.

Sounds like Ibiquity and friends to me.

db

That's not correct. First, they don't regulate pricing. They don't regulate production, either. Marketing? Well, they do coordinate marketing of the concept.

So I guess you did clear it up - it's not a cartel. Unless, of course, you can provide some hard evidence.

Good luck!

 

[dbdigital]

"I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck"


cartel - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business.
2. a coalition of political or special-interest groups having a common cause, as to encourage the passage of a certain law.
3. a written agreement between belligerents, esp. for the exchange of prisoners.
4. a written challenge to a duel

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face). Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups. Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here. (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too.

To quote Archie Bunker: "Ah, Jeez!" We've had this lecture before from the papalnuncio of the radio business.

Here's a definition of cartel from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"car·tel A combination of independent business organizations formed to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members." A synonym for cartel as provided by Roget's Thesaurus is...(drum roll, please) MONOPOLY.

Sounds like Ibiquity and friends to me.

db

That's not correct. First, they don't regulate pricing. They don't regulate production, either. Marketing? Well, they do coordinate marketing of the concept.

So I guess you did clear it up - it's not a cartel. Unless, of course, you can provide some hard evidence.

Good luck!

Ibiquity's investers include the following: ABC, Beasley, Bonneville, Citadel, Clear Channel, Cox Radio, Cumulus, Emmis, Entercom, Gannett, Radio One, Regent, Saga, Susquehanna, Univision, Viacom, Ford Motor Company, Harris Corporation, Texas Instruments, Visteon Corporation, Grotech Capital Group, Intel Capital, J.P. Morgan Partners, New Venture Partners and Pequot Capital. This is definitely a "combination of independent business organizations".

This group of business organizations own the only FCC-approved method for terrestrial radio digital transmission. As a station owner, if you want to broadcast in HD Radio and stay competitive, keeping up with the "big guys", you've got to go through them, or rather through their front, Ibiquity. They "regulate" the standards, they "regulate" the price through their licensing agreement. And it isn't cheap.

You can't broadcast HD Radio, or build any HD Radio equipment, any other way except through Ibiquity and its investors. And as a broadcaster, you can't add an HD2 stream or auxiliary data without paying an annual fee to iBiquity and its investors.

So, yes, they are a cartel with a monopoly on this technology.

db

 

[IBOCRocks]

"I also wish the AM radios would just give it up. Unfortunately, they have these idiotic contracts with the Ubiquitous cartel and now they're stuck"


cartel - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kahr-tel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. an international syndicate, combine, or trust formed esp. to regulate prices and output in some field of business.
2. a coalition of political or special-interest groups having a common cause, as to encourage the passage of a certain law.
3. a written agreement between belligerents, esp. for the exchange of prisoners.
4. a written challenge to a duel

First, calling Ibiquity names is silly, imature and discredits your arguments. (It's like debating someone and callling them a poopey face). Second I notice that many of the anti IBOC people call it a "Cartel". Ibiquity isn't an International syndicate, nor is it a coalition of political special interest groups. Maybe there should be an English test before someone is allowed to post in here. (and I know I make typing mistakes. A working spell check would be nice too.

To quote Archie Bunker: "Ah, Jeez!" We've had this lecture before from the papalnuncio of the radio business.

Here's a definition of cartel from the American Heritage Dictionary:

"car·tel A combination of independent business organizations formed to regulate production, pricing, and marketing of goods by the members." A synonym for cartel as provided by Roget's Thesaurus is...(drum roll, please) MONOPOLY.

Sounds like Ibiquity and friends to me.

db

That's not correct. First, they don't regulate pricing. They don't regulate production, either. Marketing? Well, they do coordinate marketing of the concept.

So I guess you did clear it up - it's not a cartel. Unless, of course, you can provide some hard evidence.

Good luck!

Ibiquity's investers include the following: ABC, Beasley, Bonneville, Citadel, Clear Channel, Cox Radio, Cumulus, Emmis, Entercom, Gannett, Radio One, Regent, Saga, Susquehanna, Univision, Viacom, Ford Motor Company, Harris Corporation, Texas Instruments, Visteon Corporation, Grotech Capital Group, Intel Capital, J.P. Morgan Partners, New Venture Partners and Pequot Capital. This is definitely a "combination of independent business organizations".

This group of business organizations own the only FCC-approved method for terrestrial radio digital transmission. As a station owner, if you want to broadcast in HD Radio and stay competitive, keeping up with the "big guys", you've got to go through them, or rather through their front, Ibiquity. They "regulate" the standards, they "regulate" the price through their licensing agreement. And it isn't cheap.

You can't broadcast HD Radio, or build any HD Radio equipment, any other way except through Ibiquity and its investors. And as a broadcaster, you can't add an HD2 stream or auxiliary data without paying an annual fee to iBiquity and its investors.

So, yes, they are a cartel with a monopoly on this technology.

db

You guys are insane!

First, and most importantly, NOBODY is required to run HD, nor required buy an HD Radio.

Second, there are several organizations that have related independent businesses as investors. That does not make them a cartel. Heck, every publicly owned company is owned by investors, many of them are either users or distributors of the businesses end product. Hello!

Third, while iBiquity controls the licensing cost, the individuals do not. In fact, the list of investors that you posted is only a partial list. Even then, based on the structure, the investors do not set the pricing. I guarantee that there isn't any secret investor meetings in hollowed out volcanoes or whatever, deciding how to control the price of HD. If the price is high, the tech will die. Free market economies are the great equalizer.

Fourth, iBiquity only sets the licensing cost, not the cost of an item. The market decides the cost of the radio. Just like CD and DVD players, the licensees get a cut, but they don't get to decide the final cost. Same with the broadcaster's side. It is to iBiquity's benefit to get as many stations on as possible. If the uptake is low due to cost, they'll have to lower it. Again, since IBOC is not required, the broadcasters have leverage.

Interestingly enough, the only people shouting "cartel" are a few anti-IBOC bloggers and message board posters. You would think that this would be big news if it were true. Problem is that it's not. It's free-market stuff that you don't like. That's not the definition of cartel.

So...keep searching for the smoking gun. It ain't here.

 

[zumahans]

---->You guys are insane!

Knock off the namecalling, it debases your argument.

----->First, and most importantly, NOBODY is required to run HD, nor required buy an HD Radio.

Not the issue. No one is required to buy gasoline, but OPEC is a cartel.

---->Second, there are several organizations that have related independant businesses as investors. That does not make them a cartel. Heck, every publicly owned company is owned by investors, many of them are either users or distributors of the businesses end product. Hello!

Also irrelevent. Just because cartels exist does not make them legal.

---->Third, while iBiquity controls the licensing cost, the individuals do not.

Also doesn't matter. Thebig boys are colluding on price.

----->Fourth, iBiquity only sets the licensing cost, not the cost of an item.

The licensing price is passed thru in the total price. OPEC sets the rate, which is passed thru by ExxonMobilShelltexaco.

----->The market decides the cost of the radio.

No, the market decides the market price after adding in the subject of collusion.

Smoking gun delivered, pal.

 

[IBOCRocks]

---->You guys are insane!

Knock off the namecalling, it debases your argument.

----->First, and most importantly, NOBODY is required to run HD, nor required buy an HD Radio.

Not the issue. No one is required to buy gasoline, but OPEC is a cartel.

---->Second, there are several organizations that have related independant businesses as investors. That does not make them a cartel. Heck, every publicly owned company is owned by investors, many of them are either users or distributors of the businesses end product. Hello!

Also irrelevent. Just because cartels exist does not make them legal.

---->Third, while iBiquity controls the licensing cost, the individuals do not.

Also doesn't matter. Thebig boys are colluding on price.

----->Fourth, iBiquity only sets the licensing cost, not the cost of an item.

The licensing price is passed thru in the total price. OPEC sets the rate, which is passed thru by ExxonMobilShelltexaco.

----->The market decides the cost of the radio.

No, the market decides the market price after adding in the subject of collusion.

Smoking gun delivered, pal.

The namecalling was in jest, but I apologize if it offended you. Of course, you wont call David any more names, right?

Anyway, here's the rub. None of you have proven that there has been any collusion. Period.

You think there is, but that's a far cry from the real thing. Guilt by association is a bit of a stretch.

So, you showed me a gun, but it's not even loaded.

 

[IBOCRocks]

So, do you have proof of any collusion or not?



By the way, you want a cartel? Go after the RIAA - if iBiquity is a cartel...

 

[PLL]

IBOCRocks: "Anyway, here's the rub. None of you have proven that there has been any collusion. Period."

Prove these allegations !

The HD Radio Alliance IS a Cartel and Clear Channel IS forcing IBOC on its stations !

 

[calstymes]

I.B. Iquity declared:

And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC? No one is being forced to do anything.

Not yet. Working for a major broadcasting company, you should already know this is coming.

IBOCRocks echoed:

First, and most importantly, NOBODY is required to run HD, nor required to buy an HD Radio.

Not yet. Working for a major broadcating company (maybe), you should already know this is coming.

Thank you Tom Wells, zumahans, dbdigital and others for the voices of reason here.

 

[IBOCRocks]

IBOCRocks: "Anyway, here's the rub. None of you have proven that there has been any collusion. Period."

Prove these allegations !

The HD Radio Alliance IS a Cartel and Clear Channel IS forcing IBOC on its stations !

Then prove it!

PLL: New name, same lies

 

[IBOCRocks]

I.B. Iquity declared:

And again (for the hundreth time) who said a station is FORCED to convert to IBOC? No one is being forced to do anything.

Not yet. Working for a major broadcasting company, you should already know this is coming.

IBOCRocks echoed:

First, and most importantly, NOBODY is required to run HD, nor required to buy an HD Radio.

Not yet. Working for a major broadcating company (maybe), you should already know this is coming.

Thank you Tom Wells, zumahans, dbdigital and others for the voices of reason here.

I have not heard of any discussions involving manditory HD (and I'd probably hear about it if it were true). I have heard of the eventuality of all-digital, but with mixed-mode radios like today so that you could still hear the analogs.

So, yes, it's coming - but no, it's not like you think.

Can we at least TRY not to create things that don't exist?

 

[zumahans]

----->...with mixed-mode radios like today so that you could still hear the analogs.

Uh, I have a whole bunch of radios in my house and cars, and not one of them is mixed mode. Not one of them will hear an all-digital station.

In fact, the thousands of dollars worth of AM/FM radios in my house and cars will objectively perform worse when IBOC fully rolls out. Since I am one of tens of millions of people who live in fringe areas, I am likely to suffer all kinds of interference on the distant signals that my analog radios (barely) recieve, while digital reception will be nonexistent.

And I will be damned if I would replace all that equipment inventory just to help all the big radio companies protect their turf.

That, my friend, is the bottom line.

You know, when the big broadcasters were forced to convert their analog news microwave equipment to digital, in the interest of spectrum efficiency, the ABC, Fox, NBC and CBS stations went to Congress and got a billion dollar subsidy from Nextel (which bought the spectrum) to buy their new mixed mode equipment.

And now, the same NAB group wants consumers to pay for them to protect their turf.

No way.

 

[calstymes]

IBOCRocks pleaded:

Can we at least TRY not to create things that don't exist?

That is exactly what we are trying to do! We are trying to STOP the creation of the conditions in which digital-radio of the Ubiquitous (I mean iBiquity) variety will eventually force away analog radio regardless of whether or not the public really wants it. This CAN happen unless the disenfranchised public speaks up and speaks loudly.

 

[IBOCRocks]

----->...with mixed-mode radios like today so that you could still hear the analogs.

Uh, I have a whole bunch of radios in my house and cars, and not one of them is mixed mode. Not one of them will hear an all-digital station.

In fact, the thousands of dollars worth of AM/FM radios in my house and cars will objectively perform worse when IBOC fully rolls out. Since I am one of tens of millions of people who live in fringe areas, I am likely to suffer all kinds of interference on the distant signals that my analog radios (barely) recieve, while digital reception will be nonexistent.

And I will be damned if I would replace all that equipment inventory just to help all the big radio companies protect their turf.

That, my friend, is the bottom line.

You know, when the big broadcasters were forced to convert their analog news microwave equipment to digital, in the interest of spectrum efficiency, the ABC, Fox, NBC and CBS stations went to Congress and got a billion dollar subsidy from Nextel (which bought the spectrum) to buy their new mixed mode equipment.

And now, the same NAB group wants consumers to pay for them to protect their turf.

No way.

So what are you worried about then? If consumers don't buy the radios, then it would be suicide for the stations to go all-digital... and your point will be moot!

Again, you want your argument both ways. It doesn't work that way!

 

[IBOCRocks]

IBOCRocks pleaded:

Can we at least TRY not to create things that don't exist?

That is exactly what we are trying to do! We are trying to STOP the creation of the conditions in which digital-radio of the Ubiquitous (I mean iBiquity) variety will eventually force away analog radio regardless of whether or not the public really wants it. This CAN happen unless the disenfranchised public speaks up and speaks loudly.

IN YOUR OPINION. What you state may be far from reality. It's like shouting fire in a theater because you thought somebody lit a match. Let's get some proof that ANY of this is happening before you point fingers.

What I see is a technology that some vocal people are unhappy with, so they do their best to take any little molehill, real or not, and make it into a mountain. Problem is, you're sending mixed messages:

It won't get off the ground, yet it will kill analog radio.
Public won't buy it, yet the public will have to buy it.
The FCC won't approve it, yet the FCC will push it through.

Bottom line: All of you say that HD radio is dead. If that's true, why are you here? Are you admitting that HD Radio has legs? Or are you hedging your bets? Common sense will tell you that if it doesn't, the FCC won't make it so. Congress won't let it happen, and there's no "spectrum" reason for the FCC to require digital.

Heck, I'm not for IBOC, I'm for digital radio. I just can't believe the opinions being slung as fact, and the opinions of the armchair lawyers here. It's as if you think that because you say so, it is true.

So we're back to the free market. If it sucks, it will fail.

So is the sky really falling?

 

[zumahans]

---->So what are you worried about then? If consumers don't buy the radios, then it would be suicide for the stations to go all-digital... and your point will be moot!


If you would stop and reasd my point, it is very obvious: my thousands of dollars worth of radios will be made useless because of the IBOC interference to analog radio on suburban fringes.

I do not want my radios to be made useless because the corporations that own the airwaves are trying to protect their exclusive franchises, by making me buy new radios at my expense.

Now mulitply me by 280 million. That's the problem.

I do agree with you, I cannot ever foresee a radio station dropping its analog service. HD Radio is at least 30 years from that level of penetration, of even longer at current rates of adoption.

 

[zumahans]

---->All of you say that HD radio is dead. If that's true, why are you here?

Same reason I torment David Eduardo: I love puncturing pompous, asinine comments by made by radio industry aparachniks.

Turn the question around, IBOCRocks: if IBOC is not such a halfbaked loaf of excrement, why do you need to rah rah rah it to the point of silliness?

----->Heck, I'm not for IBOC, I'm for digital radio.

You don't say?

------->I just can't believe the opinions being slung as fact, and the opinions of the armchair lawyers here.

Armchair comes off soon, then watch out.

-------->It's as if you think that because you say so, it is true.

Yup.

----->So we're back to the free market. If it sucks, it will fail.

Exactly. And it does, and it will.

 

[IBOCRocks]

---->So what are you worried about then? If consumers don't buy the radios, then it would be suicide for the stations to go all-digital... and your point will be moot!


If you would stop and reasd my point, it is very obvious: my thousands of dollars worth of radios will be made useless because of the IBOC interference to analog radio on suburban fringes.

I do not want my radios to be made useless because the corporations that own the airwaves are trying to protect their exclusive franchises, by making me buy new radios at my expense.

Now mulitply me by 280 million. That's the problem.

I do agree with you, I cannot ever foresee a radio station dropping its analog service. HD Radio is at least 30 years from that level of penetration, of even longer at current rates of adoption.

Again, that interference has not been proven on a widespread basis. So lets dial back the 280 million people rhetoric for the moment.

Where I am at, we have not had ANY interference problems, period. Heck, I live in the suburbs and haven't had any problems. There are MANY variables here...the selectivity of the radio, the proper installation and set-up of the HD, etc.

So far the complaints have primarily been from two groups: DX'ers, and people who have not experienced the problem, but are very vocal about it anyway. There have been a handful of cases dealing with broadcasters, but in fairness we need to wait until the hearings to know what the facts are, before we pass judgement.

Until there is some successful invesitgation and verified proof of widespread interference, most of this remains anecdotal.

 

[IBOCRocks]

---->All of you say that HD radio is dead. If that's true, why are you here?

Same reason I torment David Eduardo: I love puncturing pompous, asinine comments by made by radio industry aparachniks.

Turn the question around, IBOCRocks: if IBOC is not such a halfbaked loaf of excrement, why do you need to rah rah rah it to the point of silliness?

----->Heck, I'm not for IBOC, I'm for digital radio.

You don't say?

------->I just can't believe the opinions being slung as fact, and the opinions of the armchair lawyers here.

Armchair comes off soon, then watch out.

-------->It's as if you think that because you say so, it is true.

Yup.

----->So we're back to the free market. If it sucks, it will fail.

Exactly. And it does, and it will.

And to think, you asked me not to debase my arguments with name-calling. C'mon man, we're more alike than you'd care to admit.

As for the rah rah? You completely miss my point. I'm not for IBOC in as much as I'm aganst Chicken Littles running around yelling "THE SKY IS FALLING" and creating facts that don't exist.

I look forward to the day the armchair comes off. Then you have to work with real facts, not just what you think is reality.

Absurd. "It will fail, and it sucks." Yet, you spend all this time here telling us how it will do everything evil, short of kicking your dog. I'm sure that's coming too, though.