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Ho! Ho! HD Ho!
- Thread starter bigtom101
- Start date
Nick said:mjb1124 said:HD stations could show up in the Arbitron ratings if they attract a significant enough audience, just as station streams sometimes do. I believe there was one recent case of an HD2 channel actually showing up (I forget where, but I know it was a dance station). But for the most part, the audience just isn't there yet.
That was WWMX-HD2 in Baltimore that showed up for one period with a cume of 10,000. I know there aren't even 10,000 HD radios in existence within 15 miles of Baltimore, so it had to be from Internet listeners.
I think that's an extrapolation problem. You have a small number of PPM participants and you're trying to extrapolate from that what most people, who don't carry PPMs, are listening to. What probably happened is that one participant happened to listen to that station for a while, so the ratings system extrapolated that out to the total population.
I think an Atlanta FM station made the NYC book shortly after PPM was deployed there. I think what happened there is, one participant, an NYC resident, traveled to Atlanta and spent a fair amount of time listening to radio down there.
The ratings for an HD-2 can't be from the internet. Internet streams are separately encoded and would show up as internet streams. This month's rating for Philadelphia has WIP's internet stream listed.
K
KyL416
Guest
I don't have an HD radio in the Philly area so I can't personally confirm if this is the case over the air, but CBS's online feed flipped 98.1 HD2 to Christmas.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
While just about anything is possible, it's worth remembering that WOGL didn't go up last time they went all-Christmas. Whether it saved them from a bigger drop is an interesting question. As for Ben...if they plan on scrapping it come January, why not...there's nothing to lose. Otherwise, the result would seem to be: get trounced by B101 only to come back on the other side having chased away a piece of what audience you currently have. A pretty big downside risk for not a lot of upside potential.
Dan said:Maybe they could put the Club Ben format and give Philly a true Rhythmic AC.
What format holes does this town have??
well we dont have fm talk yet
greater media does own 96.9 WTKK in boston so they could clone that here on 95.7
Mike said:Dan said:Maybe they could put the Club Ben format and give Philly a true Rhythmic AC.
What format holes does this town have??
well we dont have fm talk yet
greater media does own 96.9 WTKK in boston so they could clone that here on 95.7
I thought about that, but it seems like between WPHT and WNTP all the major, and even second rate, talk show hosts are taken. Besides, WWDB didn't exactly light the world on fire when they were FM talk.
WWDB, I believe, had good ratings in its early years of being a talker (circa mid 1970's), later, for some reason the ratings did drop.
The Decline and Fall of WWDB
WWDB was handed an opportunity in 1976 when CBS chairman Bill Paley demanded WCAU flip from a very successful full service variety-talk format to all news (a la WCBS Newsradio 88). While CBS was able to compete successfully doing all news against Westinghouse in New York, they bombed in Philly and 'CAU never recovered. They returned to a talk format but 'DB was firmly established in the format for almost 20 years.
Until... WWDB lost Rush. They opted for a local-live format (sound familiar). Hosts included "Evil" Irv Homer, the Saucy Aussie, Tom Maher from Baltimore.
They also lost morning host Paul W. Smith who went back to Detroit after the long-time morning show host at his former station died. There was a fair amount of turn-over in the morning slot. At one point, they tried a morning news block which included Melanie Armstrong as co-host.
To increase revenue they started selling guest appearances; talk shows became infomercials. There was repeated tweaking of the schedule, host line-up and format. At one point they tried more syndicated shows and moved the local hosts to 860AM. Finally, they called everybody in for a 9am Monday morning staff meeting and fired them. While the meeting was going on, they dropped talk - the day before the 2000 election.
Whatever the value of putting talk on FM, it doesn't outweigh host appeal.
WWDB was handed an opportunity in 1976 when CBS chairman Bill Paley demanded WCAU flip from a very successful full service variety-talk format to all news (a la WCBS Newsradio 88). While CBS was able to compete successfully doing all news against Westinghouse in New York, they bombed in Philly and 'CAU never recovered. They returned to a talk format but 'DB was firmly established in the format for almost 20 years.
Until... WWDB lost Rush. They opted for a local-live format (sound familiar). Hosts included "Evil" Irv Homer, the Saucy Aussie, Tom Maher from Baltimore.
They also lost morning host Paul W. Smith who went back to Detroit after the long-time morning show host at his former station died. There was a fair amount of turn-over in the morning slot. At one point, they tried a morning news block which included Melanie Armstrong as co-host.
To increase revenue they started selling guest appearances; talk shows became infomercials. There was repeated tweaking of the schedule, host line-up and format. At one point they tried more syndicated shows and moved the local hosts to 860AM. Finally, they called everybody in for a 9am Monday morning staff meeting and fired them. While the meeting was going on, they dropped talk - the day before the 2000 election.
Whatever the value of putting talk on FM, it doesn't outweigh host appeal.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
Which would seem to rule out FM talk right now--could they put together a lineup that would deliver a better ROI than what they have going now?
Frankly, I'm not sure there's much of any opening for anything right now that would significantly outperform what they have going now. Taking a look at the whole Philly station group they have, I'd be inclined to leave Ben alone for the time being. Maybe if the whole "Gen X" radio thing starts to prove itself, tweaking a station already aimed at that demo would be an option.
Frankly, I'm not sure there's much of any opening for anything right now that would significantly outperform what they have going now. Taking a look at the whole Philly station group they have, I'd be inclined to leave Ben alone for the time being. Maybe if the whole "Gen X" radio thing starts to prove itself, tweaking a station already aimed at that demo would be an option.
imhomerjay said:Which would seem to rule out FM talk right now--could they put together a lineup that would deliver a better ROI than what they have going now?
CBS tried to build an FM talk format modeled on the success of Howard Stern. Didn't work. Clear Channel has moved Rush and other Premiere talkers to FM in some markets. Sure the audience followed but they didn't seem to pick up new, and younger, listeners as they hoped. The only way be successful with talk on FM that anybody has come up with so far is to build something from the ground up, like NJ 101.5 (not ideological, not shock jocks).
If Greater Media is going to build an FM non-political talker, the no-brainer decision is to anchor the station with Preston & Steve. They should not duplicate the huge mistake CBS made in New York, trying to build WNEW as a talk station while Howard Stern, their most successful talk host, stayed on their sister rock station.
Alternative morning host idea for a new FM talker in Philadelphia: Ed Rendell. Anyone see the Inquirer's front-page article this week (was is Sunday, Monday?) about the Gov's recent appearances on TV? Rendell is quoted at the end of the article as saying he'd accept a TV gig. How about Philly radio?
If 97.5 didn't have to clear the ESPN morning show to maintain the ESPN affiliation, he'd be perfect there. Let him talk sports, politics, food, whatever he wants. It'd be a credible challenge to the WIP morning show. Run the ESPN morning show on 950 AM.
I wonder if Greater Media could play hardball with ESPN radio to achieve that: Let us put a local morning show on the FM, or we'll drop ESPN altogether. Who has a signal as good as 950's that'd be willing to pick ESPN up? Sure, you might get a 1,000-watter to pick up ESPN, but there aren't many AM stations in the Philly area looking to make a complete format change that have a decent signal. The better AM signals are taken up with programming that's not likely to change.
Filling the rest of the day on a new FM talk station after Rendell would be a problem, as others have noted. All the "good" syndicated talkers are taken. Filling the rest of the day with local hosts, a la NJ101.5, would be more expensive than most radio groups would want right now.
If 97.5 didn't have to clear the ESPN morning show to maintain the ESPN affiliation, he'd be perfect there. Let him talk sports, politics, food, whatever he wants. It'd be a credible challenge to the WIP morning show. Run the ESPN morning show on 950 AM.
I wonder if Greater Media could play hardball with ESPN radio to achieve that: Let us put a local morning show on the FM, or we'll drop ESPN altogether. Who has a signal as good as 950's that'd be willing to pick ESPN up? Sure, you might get a 1,000-watter to pick up ESPN, but there aren't many AM stations in the Philly area looking to make a complete format change that have a decent signal. The better AM signals are taken up with programming that's not likely to change.
Filling the rest of the day on a new FM talk station after Rendell would be a problem, as others have noted. All the "good" syndicated talkers are taken. Filling the rest of the day with local hosts, a la NJ101.5, would be more expensive than most radio groups would want right now.
I
imhomerjay
Guest
They could play hardball when the contract is up, but that may be some time down the road, and given they have more than just one city involved in their relationship with ESPN, the big picture needs to be considered before getting into a game of chicken. Your backup plan better be in place.
Mornings with Ed Rendell...could be fun. Then just throw in "Streets on the Streets" traffic with John & Milton and you've got a show.
Mornings with Ed Rendell...could be fun. Then just throw in "Streets on the Streets" traffic with John & Milton and you've got a show.
K
KyL416
Guest
The only way I can see FM talk succeeding in Philly is either all local with a mix of new shows and some successful shows from other stations, or if Clear Channel wrestled the rights for their Rush, Beck and Hannity away from the other stations that currently air it in Philly and replace My 106.1 with their Rush Radio branding along with the morning drive filled with a popular host from another station, any other way and it will flop like 94.1 did after Howard left. (Although 94.1 didn't help their case of retaining the existing Howard audience when they alienated his listeners by cutting the show off at 10am sharp in the final months to air one of the replacement shows on the new talk format)
A local FM talker would be huge, and you can take it to the bank that Tom Bigby and CBS are in talks with Ed about doing a show on one of their talk facilities. Plus if they made one of their FM's a talker, we could hear Sid's Sinatra show is stereo. Someone mentioned the old WWDB FM talk station. I remember it as being an incredibly sales friendly operation. They had no idea how to manage commercial inventory. They would add :60 commercials at the drop of a hat. Some hours would have 21 minutes of commercials. A sales person would ask a client, " how much money do you have, and what are you willing to pay for a :60 commercial." SOLD !! The other thing that they would do, is sell live :60's read by the personalities. And not at a premium. It was nothing for Irv, Sid, Wynn, Susan, Robert W., or Bernie to read three :60 commercials live, back to back in one stop set. And as I recall, the hosts were all pretty good at smacking their lips, and getting the listeners in to the customers shop. It was not unusual for the personalities to go on sales calls with the sales reps, to help them make the sale. And there was always a free cruise or some other item of merchandise in it for the personality. Do good, be well and happy.
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