Holy cow, KROQ...

[davideduardo]

So over a decade, you are saying radio's down by 7%. Not small change, but considering all the sources of entertainment that have come along, I would say that is "almost" growth for radio. I have dealt with businesses that have seen 20-50% of their revenue taken away literally overnight with governmental changes. You get an expanding city like Nashville, then you have little or no decline. That's pretty good news for radio.

Those are the Nashville numbers, based on station reporting. Total market revenue will decline by a little more than $5 million through 2023 compared to a decade prior.

The better growth markets have somewhat similar numbers. The more traditional markets are off a bit more.

 

[Gregg.]

After reading all these interesting posts, here's my question. In a market the large size of Los Angeles, and with more advertising dollars up for grabs than even NYC, is a station like KROQ still be doing quite well, bringing in considerably more revenue with a one-point-something rating, than any alternative station in St. Louis or Kansas City getting a 3 or 4?

When we see the revenue numbers published every year, we find stations like KROQ doing much better than its ratings would indicated. As I said earlier, KROQ a few years ago was among CBS's best revenue stations in the country, even though it was nowhere near the top 10 stations in Los Angeles' ratings. WFAN, the CBS Sports station in NYC, also had much better revenues for many years than its ratings would indicate. Now WFAN's ratings have caught up. But when WFAN was nowhere near the top 10 in NYC ratings, it was also among CBS's best revenue stations, like KROQ.

And when we bemoan KABC and WABC's poor ratings, we wonder why Cumulus would hang onto them. But aren't they both bringing in better revenues than the leading talk stations in St. Louis or Kansas City? Even in a market like LA where non-ethnic listeners make up a smaller percentage of the overall population, there are still enough non-ethnic listeners with a LOT of money, that stations getting so-so or even poor numbers still bring in good revenue if they advertise to those people?

 

[TheBigA]

And when we bemoan KABC and WABC's poor ratings, we wonder why Cumulus would hang onto them. But aren't they both bringing in better revenues than the leading talk stations in St. Louis or Kansas City?

At the same time, the cost of doing business is different in Kansa City vs. New York too. The salary structure is different. Rents are different. Laws are different. The goal of business isn't about ratings or revenues, but profit. That's why some radio companies don't event attempt to do business in NY or LA. They avoid the high costs, and feel the profit structure is better elsewhere.

 

[briancraig]

You really think that KABC is more profitable than KMOX?

 

[macattack]

KROQ (and Los Angeles) was (and should be) cutting edge for alternative rock radio. To have stations in St. Louis and Kansas City show up as more progressive in this realm is fairly eye-opening. It would be interesting to dissect KROQ's programming logic and understand the hesitancy to not be more cutting edge.

I actually went ahead and listened to each station for an hour apiece last night to help with dissecting KROQ.

KPNT 105.7 St Louis 8 PM:

1. "Beloved" - Mumford & Sons (current)
2. "Hate Me" - Blue October
3. "100 Bad Days" - AJR (current)
4. "Dammit" - Blink-182
5. "Longshot" - Catfish & The Bottlemen (current, aging a bit)
6. "The Unforgiven" - Metallica (!)
7. "Alligator" - Of Monsters and Men (current)
8. "Creep" - Radiohead
9. "I'll Wait" - The Strumbellas (current)
10. "Uprising" - Muse
11. "Monsters" - Shinedown (current)
12. "What I Got" - Sublime
13. "Go" - Black Keys (current)

7/13 are currents.

KRBZ 96.3 Kansas City 9 PM:

1. "Renegades of Funk" - Rage Against the Machine
2. "It Doesn't Matter Why" - Silversun Pickups (current)
3. "Change (In The House of Flies)" - Deftones
4. "Gloria" - The Lumineers (current and probable Billboard #1 next week)
5. "This Life" - Vampire Weekend (current)
6. "99" - Barns Courtney (recent recurrent)
7. "Real Thing" - Middle Kids (current)
8. "Stolen Dance" - Milky Dance
9. "Hurt" - Oliver Tree (current)
10. "Heathens" - Twenty-One Pilots
11. "I'll Wait" - The Strumbellas (current)
12. "Trouble" - Cage the Elephant
13. "Light On" - Sublime w/Rome (current)

7/13 are currents, with 1 recent recurrent.

KROQ 10 PM (technically 8 PM West Coast time):

1. "Come As You Are" - Nirvana
2. "Feel It Still" - Portugal the Man
3. "A Praise Chorus" - Jimmy Eat World
4. "Creep" - Radiohead
5. "Broken" - lovelytheband (recent recurrent)
6. "Lazy Eye" - Silversun Pickups
7. "Brain Stew/Jaded" - Green Day
8. "Good Things Fall Apart" - Illenium w/Jon Bellion (current)
9. "By The Way" - Red Hot Chili Peppers
10. "Alien" - Pennywise
11. "Love Hurts" - Incubus
12. "Superposition" - Young the Giant (recent recurrent)
13. "Spiderwebs" - No Doubt

Only 1 of the 13 songs happened to be a current, with 2 recent recurrents.

KROQ's choice of recurrents aren't terrible (in fact I enjoyed the hour somewhat) but after writing down the songs it feels stale in retrospect. One current and two recent recurrents in the hour, that's just not acceptable IMO, that's the equivalent of a classic rock station spinning the new Sammy Hagar single in an hour of 70's and 80's rock. It just gives the sense of a station on autopilot, perhaps even a bit sick, compared to KPNT's livelier playlist and KRBZ's greater sense of spontaneity (such as playing two currents in a row and spinning Bob Marley 3 times in the 8 PM hour, which I sadly missed).

I know that people are just going to harp on the decreasing amount of white people in KROQ's market but that's no excuse to not try harder. Rock has a great many bands with female and POC singers trying to break out at the moment. Latinos, blacks, etc. are not hardwired to rhythmic music any more than whites are hardwired to melodic music, and it reeks of fatalism to argue otherwise. Especially as black musicians played an astronomical role in forming one of the world's greatest genres of music, jazz, in the first place.

 

[TheBigA]

I actually went ahead and listened to each station for an hour apiece last night to help with dissecting KROQ.

I took a look at the airplay statistics of KROQ vs KYSR in Mediabase. What I noticed is KYSR plays its heavy songs more frequently than KROQ. KYSR spins its heavies 71 times a week, while KROQ spins them 59 times a week. The active currents playlist is only slightly bigger for KYSR (27 songs vs 24 songs). More spins of top songs means more repetition. But it gives the impression that they play more current music.

Looking at KRBZ and KPNT, their heavies get 59 spins a week, which is closer to KROQ. KPNT has 30 active currents, which is more than both LA stations, and KRBZ has the most active currents with 40.

 

[davideduardo]

And when we bemoan KABC and WABC's poor ratings, we wonder why Cumulus would hang onto them. But aren't they both bringing in better revenues than the leading talk stations in St. Louis or Kansas City? Even in a market like LA where non-ethnic listeners make up a smaller percentage of the overall population, there are still enough non-ethnic listeners with a LOT of money, that stations getting so-so or even poor numbers still bring in good revenue if they advertise to those people?

There is an additional issue here. Agencies buy stations from the top down. After selecting the target demo ranker, they will buy 3-deep or 5-deep or whatever. Lower rated stations just don't rank high enough to be considered, even if a campaign buys 8 or 10 deep. Generally, there are only two ways to get on an agency buy... being high on rankers in a sales-attractive demo (and being priced at the right CPP level) or being part of a cluster where a multi-station buy delivers the right rank, even if through combining several lower rated stations to achieve the goal.

WABC and KABC don't rank high enough for most buys, don't appeal to a "buy" demo and don't have sister stations to combo with.

And there is a factor worth considering: Selling a conservative talk format in two bastions of liberalism may be harder than selling the same format in "fly over country".

 

[davideduardo]

I took a look at the airplay statistics of KROQ vs KYSR in Mediabase. What I noticed is KYSR plays its heavy songs more frequently than KROQ. KYSR spins its heavies 71 times a week, while KROQ spins them 59 times a week. The active currents playlist is only slightly bigger for KYSR (27 songs vs 24 songs). More spins of top songs means more repetition. But it gives the impression that they play more current music.

Looking at KRBZ and KPNT, their heavies get 59 spins a week, which is closer to KROQ. KPNT has 30 active currents, which is more than both LA stations, and KRBZ has the most active currents with 40.

That would tend to support the idea that the different ethnic composition of LA supports being less current intensive because they are aiming at a slightly higher median age than the Missouri stations. We know that the interest in music discovery decreases as a function of age, so the different numbers of currents and their rotations makes sense.

 

[macattack]

I took a look at the airplay statistics of KROQ vs KYSR in Mediabase. What I noticed is KYSR plays its heavy songs more frequently than KROQ. KYSR spins its heavies 71 times a week, while KROQ spins them 59 times a week. The active currents playlist is only slightly bigger for KYSR (27 songs vs 24 songs). More spins of top songs means more repetition. But it gives the impression that they play more current music.

Looking at KRBZ and KPNT, their heavies get 59 spins a week, which is closer to KROQ. KPNT has 30 active currents, which is more than both LA stations, and KRBZ has the most active currents with 40.

That's interesting and I wonder if KYSR's approach is a factor in why it's holding a (slim) lead in the LA market at the moment. We should also keep in mind that KRBZ isn't doing particularly hot in its market right now either, as it's been consistently losing to its Cumulus challenger for a while now, so having more currents definitely doesn't guarantee ratings.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

And there is a factor worth considering: Selling a conservative talk format in two bastions of liberalism may be harder than selling the same format in "fly over country".

That may be true, but history has shown that selling liberal talk in a bastion liberalism is an even harder sell. As it stands now the number of conservative commercial talk stations in LA is 3.5 - KEIB, KRLA, KABC, and KFI (KFI only counts as 1/2 in my opinion). The number of liberal commercial talk stations is zero - and has failed miserably each time it has been tried (See KTLK, KTZN). Say all you want about KABC, at least it is on the air.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

That's interesting and I wonder if KYSR's approach is a factor in why it's holding a (slim) lead in the LA market at the moment. We should also keep in mind that KRBZ isn't doing particularly hot in its market right now either, as it's been consistently losing to its Cumulus challenger for a while now, so having more currents definitely doesn't guarantee ratings.

Hey thanks for those playlists, Mac. Def will check out KBRZ and KPNT pretty decent playlists. As for The World Famous KROQ meh not so much. I remember how adventurous they were in 1987-1991

 

[TheBigA]

That may be true, but history has shown that selling liberal talk in a bastion liberalism is an even harder sell.

I've talked in the past about consensus formats, and how that plays a part in radio formats. That's the case for talk as well. Conservative thought right now is a consensus format. Everyone basically agrees on the same things. That has never been the case for liberals. It has nothing to do with whether or not it's a "harder sell." It has more to do with bringing people together first. Once you do that, and achieve a level of consensus, then you have an audience you can sell.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Hey thanks for those playlists, Mac. Def will check out KBRZ and KPNT pretty decent playlists. As for The World Famous KROQ meh not so much. I remember how adventurous they were in 1987-1991

Even more so during the height of New Wave, essentially 1979 through 1985, particularly the early part of those years. I know you weren't here then to experience it. Nothing like it since, really.

 

[macattack]

Even more so during the height of New Wave, essentially 1979 through 1985, particularly the early part of those years. I know you weren't here then to experience it. Nothing like it since, really.

I've found KROQ countdowns from the 80's and 90's that give me an idea of how adventurous they were, but that's it, only a glimpse of what they were up to. I wish I had been there to hear the station live and hear everything they played, not just what made the year-end countdowns.

Hey thanks for those playlists, Mac. Def will check out KBRZ and KPNT pretty decent playlists. As for The World Famous KROQ meh not so much. I remember how adventurous they were in 1987-1991

I find both stations superior at night compared to the day, for the record, but I hope you enjoy them both. KRBZ in particular has the classic KROQ spirit musically, but it can get annoyingly chatty in the morning and afternoon drive hours.

 

[adradio]

Agree...the early incarnation of KROQ was fantastic. They'd play cutting edge, current new wave, say B-Movie 'Nowhere Girl' (heard no place else at the time) throw in an old Kinks song and then splice in the Jetsons' theme song. Very fun radio to listen to back in the day. Difference between an independently owned station and one that's part of a major corporation. I wish we could have that kind of adventuresome fun in radio today.

 

[TheBigA]

I wish we could have that kind of adventuresome fun in radio today.

One person's adventuresome is another's self-indulgence. That's partly what hurt KMET in its final years.

What's really missing is a willingness of the musicians to do exciting and dramatic things. Show up unannounced at places, engage in unique collaborations, maybe do something that gets people talking. It has to start with the music, otherwise there's no core.

 

[macattack]

Agree...the early incarnation of KROQ was fantastic. They'd play cutting edge, current new wave, say B-Movie 'Nowhere Girl' (heard no place else at the time) throw in an old Kinks song and then splice in the Jetsons' theme song. Very fun radio to listen to back in the day. Difference between an independently owned station and one that's part of a major corporation. I wish we could have that kind of adventuresome fun in radio today.

I was surprised when I looked at the countdowns that Carroll kept having KROQ spin the likes of Tom Petty, The Rolling Stones, and Peter Gabriel well into the 80's, but now that I think about it that was actually pretty smart. He knew that to get people listening that he had to play new cuts by familiar artists in addition to finding cutting edge stuff, so that way people had an "in" to start listening to KROQ.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he keep spinning the Beatles and Led Zeppelin for a while too?

 

[ChannelFlipper]

One person's adventuresome is another's self-indulgence. That's partly what hurt KMET in its final years.

What's really missing is a willingness of the musicians to do exciting and dramatic things. Show up unannounced at places, engage in unique collaborations, maybe do something that gets people talking. It has to start with the music, otherwise there's no core.

Well, yeah, but it is also what propelled KMET for many years. Everything wears out over time, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

As to your other point, you mean like the Beatles showing up on a rooftop and causing a ruckus at lunchtime? So innovative that U2 felt the need to copy years later.

 

[TheBigA]

As to your other point, you mean like the Beatles showing up on a rooftop and causing a ruckus at lunchtime? So innovative that U2 felt the need to copy years later.

Unfortunately both times in London. The U2 example was at night. Can you imagine if it happened on Sunset? There are lots examples of that kind of thing in other genres, but no longer in rock.

Lil Nas X just showed up unannounced at a festival in Nashville to do his hit Old Town Road. Rock music has become very dull. The lack of excitement in the music has carried over to radio.

 

[Doctah]

That reminds me of the 1990 "riot" outside the Wherehouse music for a KROQ-sponsored Depeche Mode record signing event. 10,000 people showed up and the LAPD had to shut it down: http://halotheviolatorbook.com/infamous-store-album-signing-event-violator/

It makes me wonder... does there come a point where KROQ embraces its heritage, and turns KROQ-HD2 "Roq of the 80s" into its primary format? Or would Entercom worry that it might eat too much into KRTH? Different playlists, and I also wonder if KROQ would then have to pull back from KROQ-HD2's adventurous playlists (Freddie Snakeskin is programming some deep, deep cuts over there, which I love but might not work on the main signal!) Thoughts?