• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Holy cow, KROQ...

Doctah said:
It makes me wonder... does there come a point where KROQ embraces its heritage, and turns KROQ-HD2 "Roq of the 80s" into its primary format?
Click to expand...

The most recent song played would be 30 years old. The youngest listeners would be around 50 years old. Classic hits and classic rock already dominate among those listeners, very few of whom will abandon stations in those formats for one playing Oingo Boingo and Bow Wow Wow.
 
To me, the question is can rock music (or a sub-genre of rock like alternative) build enough of a consensus that it can attract an audience the way it did 25 years ago? Or are we simply too divided as a people for that to happen? Because music at its best is both an artform and a culture. That's why it worked so well in the 60s and 70s.
 
TheBigA said:
To me, the question is can rock music (or a sub-genre of rock like alternative) build enough of a consensus that it can attract an audience the way it did 25 years ago? Or are we simply too divided as a people for that to happen? Because music at its best is both an artform and a culture. That's why it worked so well in the 60s and 70s.
Click to expand...

As to the artform, the great radio stations in history have had individuals behind them with a real intuition for programming music. Musicologists who had a sixth sense about what songs go together well, an ability to predict hits, and the foresight to identify breakout songs and artists that didn’t fit the format, but turned out they really did.

This kind of musical knowledge and artistry has mostly been supplanted by music research and top-down corporate music directives that rely on record label partnerships. Big radio relies so heavily on research they don't have room for the adventurous PD/MD who pushes the envelope and builds a station that attracts fans, not just listeners. So we get homogenous sounding playlists and wimpy alt rock stations that program from a position of defense -- no songs that don't test high.

Imagine if Rosalie Tremblay had been subjected to those kids of constraints in the 60s and 70s when she playlisted Motown records at CKLW when no one outside of black radio was playing them. Imagine if Dennis McNamara had been forced to follow auditorium music tests at WLIR instead of becoming the first radio station in the country to play U2, The Cure, The Smiths, New Order, Duran Duran, Madonna, George Michael, Men at Work and Prince. In fact, look at that list of artists -- they don't even go together by conventional format wisdom. And I don't know who was behind KROQ in the early days mentioned here but I imagine it was the same thing -- these were artistic and talented music programmers who had musical vision that they were able to use to build legendary radio stations.

It's interesting to note that the alternative station that's been singled out in this thread as one of the most adventurous, and also having possibly the highest ratings in the format, is owned by Hubbard, not Entercom or iHeart. They're playing rock artists like Metallica, Shinedown and Greta Van Fleet alongside alternative acts like Radiohead and Billie Eilish. So I think there is someone at KPNT who understands how to put together a consensus of rock tracks from both active and alternative charts without being constrained by those genre labels. They also play a lot of currents which probably means they're on top of songs that are too new to test really well but push the envelope at that station. They have a 6.6 share to show for it, and high praise from radio people, at least on this message board.
 
Theater of My Mind said:
I think there is someone at KPNT who understands how to put together a consensus of rock tracks from both active and alternative charts without being constrained by those genre labels. They also play a lot of currents which probably means they're on top of songs that are too new to test really well but push the envelope at that station. They have a 6.6 share to show for it, and high praise from radio people, at least on this message board.
Click to expand...

He knows what will work in St. Louis. KYSR plays more currents than The Point, and it they have a 2 share.

No one in the genre has more experience or more respect than KROQ's Kevin Weatherly.
 
Last edited:
Theater of My Mind said:
As to the artform, the great radio stations in history have had individuals behind them with a real intuition for programming music. Musicologists who had a sixth sense about what songs go together well, an ability to predict hits, and the foresight to identify breakout songs and artists that didn’t fit the format, but turned out they really did.
Click to expand...

There are still programmers with great abilities within their music genres. But radio is no longer a single source for music discovery and, of course, for music in general.

Listeners to the radio in the past had much greater tolerance for things they do now because they did not have alternatives.

When I first became a radio listener, I sort of accepted that for every song I liked I would hear one that was just "okay" and one I did not like at all. Today, I know I can tell my smart speaker or car to change the stream or skip the dreadful song.

As to "predicting the hits" radio programmers still do that. There is no research available that predicts hits, or record labels would still not be producing dozens of songs for every one that makes the top 10. Programmers have to decide which of many options they are going to program in the few slots that are open and then hope they made the right decision. Only after three or four weeks can new songs even be researched, although trending data on on-demand services, downloads and the like can help evaluate new songs and clear stiffs out early.

This kind of musical knowledge and artistry has mostly been supplanted by music research and top-down corporate music directives that rely on record label partnerships. Big radio relies so heavily on research they don't have room for the adventurous PD/MD who pushes the envelope and builds a station that attracts fans, not just listeners. So we get homogenous sounding playlists and wimpy alt rock stations that program from a position of defense -- no songs that don't test high.
Click to expand...

As I just said, listeners today have so many choices that they will not put up with songs that are not "good" for them. "Test high" means "there is consensus that it's a very good song". Music testing actually asks listeners what they want to hear, not what the programmer wants to hear.

I'd had numerous very successful stations before I ever did my first music test. I thought I had a pretty good ear for music, and I also used a "music committee" for final decisions on songs. But when I did test, I found that I was wrong on as much as 30% of the library of a hot AC that was #1 in 18-49 women and #2 in a 30 station market. I cleaned up the library and we had our first #1 overall ranking.

And keep in mind that back in the 50's and 60's, we used record store calls to guide us. That was very imprecise, and often made us play songs that did not "belong" to our formats.

And we used Gavin and Rudman and Fred and R&R and other tip sheets to follow other programmers we respected and to not "miss" a song we should reconsider.

Imagine if Rosalie Tremblay had been subjected to those kids of constraints in the 60s and 70s when she playlisted Motown records at CKLW when no one outside of black radio was playing them. Imagine if Dennis McNamara had been forced to follow auditorium music tests at WLIR instead of becoming the first radio station in the country to play U2, The Cure, The Smiths, New Order, Duran Duran, Madonna, George Michael, Men at Work and Prince. In fact, look at that list of artists -- they don't even go together by conventional format wisdom.
Click to expand...

In both cases, you are talking about new music. Songs that can't be researched unless you play them for nearly a month to see if they work. Today, we check songs against on-demand and callout... back then we checked against record sales. Nothing has changed except the technology.

And I don't know who was behind KROQ in the early days mentioned here but I imagine it was the same thing -- these were artistic and talented music programmers who had musical vision that they were able to use to build legendary radio stations.
Click to expand...

You are talking about a period about 40 years ago. LA was nowhere as diverse back then. Rock was at its apogee. Record companies were focused on rock, as it sold albums and not singles.

In the late 70's, the sum of all the Spanish language stations was less than a 7 share. Today it is in the higher 20 share range in young adults. Rock has dropped off record companies priority list. Rhythmic music pretty much sets the mood for America, particularly the more diverse cities.

It's interesting to note that the alternative station that's been singled out in this thread as one of the most adventurous, and also having possibly the highest ratings in the format, is owned by Hubbard, not Entercom or iHeart.
Click to expand...

And it is also in one of the whitest markets of the country and one where rock seems to have been frozen in time.

They have a 6.6 share to show for it, and high praise from radio people, at least on this message board.
Click to expand...

A 6.6 share for an alt station in a market that is less than 20% ethnic is about the same as a 2 share in a market that is 70% ethnic and first generation immigrants.
 
Last edited:
With regard to the on point posts in this thread about gold-based alternative 91X and active/alternative hybrid 105.7 The Point both being outliers in the incredibly staid format of alt which is now softer than soft ac, I'd like to add another to the pile, Alt 93.3/Minneapolis, the peashooter translator fed by HD that deviates very sharply from the soft safe sounds of iheart's other "Alt" stations. For that reason I wish they would have gone with the name they initially flirted with, 93.3 The Edge, as an homage to the once great 93.7 The Edge in the same market that generated some of the best ratings for any commercial alternative station during its time. 93.7 The Edge..a topic for another time.

Alt 93.3 is an alt/active hybrid. While it's far from what comm. alt. should be at this point in time had the format followed its original instincts of playing what's new, fresh and vibrant rather than what they've done by allowing themselves to be what they're told to be by the powers within the control grid, below is what Alt 93.3 has played in recent hours. Dandy Warhols, Sevendust, Gargbage, White Zombie, Taking Back Sunday, The Used.. pretty cool for an alt station years and years ago but today there really is no such thing as Alternative format. It's either Nostalgia or Soft Indie Folk.

So it's too bad there aren't any programmers with guts that would step outside the norm to play what the kids are actually listening to (trap metal and experimental hip hop among many other genres etc), but I get it, they simply aren't allowed to do so. Until then, this lumbering old-based rock-based playlist will have to do.

Crazily, this playlist looks flat out revolutionary compared to the softer than soft ac sounds of commercial alternative stations nationwide. Again, it's by design and I get it but that doesn't mean I don't get to comment on it. last one to leave turn the lightz out zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Alt 93.3 Minneapolis 6/16/17

Little Black Submarines - The Black Keys
Black - Sevendust
One Step Closer - Linkin Park
Genghis Khan - Miike Snow
The Calling - The Killers
Yellow Ledbetter - Pearl Jam
Glory - Friday Pilots Club
A Decade Under The Influence - Taking Back Sunday
The Taste Of Ink - The Used
S.O.S. (Sawed Off Shotgun) - The Glorious Sons
BOOM - X Ambassadors
Lo/Hi - The Black Keys
Intergalactic - Beastie Boys
Wish I Knew You - The Revivalists
The Rascal King - The Mighty Mighty Bosstones
TAKE MY FIRE - Switchfoot
Knights of Cydonia - Muse
Bled for Days - Static-X
Such Great Heights - The Postal Service
It Doesn't Matter Why - Silversun Pickups
Vultures - Asking Alexandria
Dangerous (feat. Joywave) - Big Data
Muzzle - Smashing Pumpkins
MANTRA - Bring Me the Horizon
Low - The Driver Era
Eddie Vedder - Local H
Around the World - Red Hot Chili Peppers
Jumpsuit - Twenty One Pilots
Too Bad - Rival Sons
Loner - YUNGBLUD
Santa Monica (Re-Recorded) - Everclear
Santa Monica (Re-Recorded)
Tick Tick Boom - The Hives
Bohemian Like You - The Dandy Warhols
Lover, Leaver - Greta Van Fleet
Saw Lightning - Beck
Shots - Imagine Dragons
Thunder Kiss '65 - White Zombie
Passion - AWOLNATION
That's My Baby - Sleeper Agent
Short Skirt / Long Jacket - Cake
Blood // Water - grandson
In Degrees - Foals
Gone Away - The Offspring
Pretty Girl (The Way) - Sugarcult
Queer - Garbage
Trainwreck 1979 - Death from Above 1979
People's Champ - Arkells
Fell On Black Days - Soundgarden
Alligator - Of Monsters and Men
Running Away - Hoobastank
Megalomaniac - Incubus
Ghost - Badflower
One Magic Moment - Bad Suns
Choke - I DONT KNOW HOW BUT THEY FOUND ME
Hash Pipe - Weezer
Lash Out - Alice Merton
Inside Out - Eve 6
Be My Fire - The Blue Stones
Ready To Let Go - Cage the Elephant
 
I've been listening to KCBS-FM (Jack FM) in Los Angeles for the past few weeks and have noticed that the station's playlist leans very heavily into '90s alternative, with the occasional '00s alt rock hit or '80s pop hit thrown in.
It's almost as if Jack is trying to appeal to that audience who grew up with KROQ, but have moved on.
 
I keep seeing 'consensus' used as a necessity in a rock format, but I wonder how much that really applies to rock music, being that during its heyday there was a width of variety within each rock format (AOR, Mainstream, Modern, Active) even as late as the 2000's. I mean, just thinking about what was popular on the local Modern Rock station back then, you'd hear everything from acoustic MTV versions of songs to rap to the odd 80's hangover, to Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, to Everlast, to industrial pop, to mavericks like Beck, to nu-metal and rap rock.

I understand that for there to be an actual 'format' there would have to be a certain amount of audience consensus, but how much of what we're dealing with in rock music is that the entire genre is aging out? The GenXers are the last rock generation that's within the desirable sales demos, and they are 10% smaller than the Boomer generation before them. Cut in the fact that GenXers aren't a monolith, and some like country, pop, AC, etc., it doesn't leave much breathing space for formats aimed at those who grew up on rock. Which leaves it up to a new audience. But that new audience views rock the same way Boomers viewed swing and standards.

Swing music was awesome. But it faded out post war, just as crooner standards faded. Doo-wop was highly popular for a while, and then faded. Genres just lose appeal to ensuing generations. I see that in rock today. It's not that the music is bad -- it's fragmented, surely -- but the new music isn't bad. It isn't any worse than the current country or pop I hear.

I think the millennials and younger generations just don't find rock appealing -- just as Boomers didn't find swing music or crooner music appealing. The elements of the music -- guitars, drums, etc. (whose sales have been dropping) just don't appeal. When previous genres faded, it wasn't necessarily the fault of the musicians and singers, or quality of the music. The audience moved on, or better put, the next audience never developed for it. They latched on to something else.
 
boombox4 said:
I keep seeing 'consensus' used as a necessity in a rock format, but I wonder how much that really applies to rock music, being that during its heyday there was a width of variety within each rock format (AOR, Mainstream, Modern, Active) even as late as the 2000's. I mean, just thinking about what was popular on the local Modern Rock station back then, you'd hear everything from acoustic MTV versions of songs to rap to the odd 80's hangover, to Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, to Everlast, to industrial pop, to mavericks like Beck, to nu-metal and rap rock. .
Click to expand...

Repeating what I said before, with so many different entertainment sources available to almost everyone, programming eclectically just will not work. The listener will hear something they don't particularly care for, and they will leave.

So you have an influence on radio which is the almost instant ability to pick something that one likes better. And you have the fragmentation of rock into every smaller core partisan groupings over the last several decades, enhance, no doubt, by the ability to close off all songs and artists that each person does not like.

So the only way a station can survive is to provide a selection music about which there is a large partisan following... enough to sustain a radio station. The followers of more narrow subsets will simply not be served by over the air radio.
 
boombox4 said:
I mean, just thinking about what was popular on the local Modern Rock station back then, you'd hear everything from acoustic MTV versions of songs to rap to the odd 80's hangover, to Soundgarden and Pearl Jam, to Everlast, to industrial pop, to mavericks like Beck, to nu-metal and rap rock.
Click to expand...

If you're talking about the turn of the decade period in rock, between 1988 and 1992, you are correct that the format was a wide mix of things. As a result, some iconic rock stations (such as WNEW-FM in NYC) saw their market shares decline, and ultimately MTV stopped playing music. This was precisely the period when rock became more individual, and the audience became less tolerant for all those sub-genres. Had the grunge audience been willing to listen to rap-rock, things would have been OK. But instead the audiences became more narrow in focus as radio broadened its focus. The rock audience was more tolerant of sub-genres in the 60s and 70s than it was in the 90s. Things haven't improved.
 
robnokshus06 said:
I'm pretty sure though that the U2 rooftop performance that Flipper alluded to, and that you commented on, was the one in DTLA. So one doesn't really need to speculate what it would be like if U2 did such a thing, it's already happened.
Click to expand...

Forgive me for not remembering 1987. It was only 32 years ago, while the London thing was 10 years ago. My point is that nothing like it has happened lately. That's what's hurting the popularity of the format today. How about a rock band doing something like that now? Would anyone care?
 
Theater of My Mind said:
It's interesting to note that the alternative station that's been singled out in this thread as one of the most adventurous, and also having possibly the highest ratings in the format, is owned by Hubbard, not Entercom or iHeart. They're playing rock artists like Metallica, Shinedown and Greta Van Fleet alongside alternative acts like Radiohead and Billie Eilish. So I think there is someone at KPNT who understands how to put together a consensus of rock tracks from both active and alternative charts without being constrained by those genre labels. They also play a lot of currents which probably means they're on top of songs that are too new to test really well but push the envelope at that station. They have a 6.6 share to show for it, and high praise from radio people, at least on this message board.
Click to expand...

The music director for KPNT is Don Fandango, who also does mid-day shifts there. His system for KPNT is a bit less tight than a typical alt station but it is by no means a AAA station either. There's about 300 songs plus currents rotating at a time, and about half of those will never leave, while everything else comes and goes in 50 song chunks every now and then. There's also about 300-500 "retro" songs from the 80's, 90's, and early 00's that get used for KPNT's retro blocks that may occasionally sneak onto the playlist. KPNT also has taken advantage of an environment that has a dominant classic rock station in KSHE, which is also KPNT's sister station, but hasn't had an active rock station for well over a decade, so KPNT tries to satisfy both active rock and alternative listeners.

They're being challenged by an iHeart outlet, KLLT, but KLLT is basically KYSR by another name. What KYSR does in LA doesn't seem to be translating to St. Louis very well.

Fandango's also set up an elaborate system for currents that gets them tested in the public eye. Obviously there's affairs going on behind the scenes as well, but in general they follow a four-step process to getting currents into heavy rotation and it seems to work well for them.

1. New Music Sunday, which is the first test. Usually a song will get 2-3 shots on this program unless it really bombs or is already breaking out into a success. Active and AAA songs join with alt songs during this trial period, actives generally have a better shot but AAA songs occasionally do pass.

2. New At Nine. A daily program at 9 p.m. where the new arrivals are played alongside accepted currents. They're technically added to the rotation but they generally don't play outside of this program. Some don't make it out (a recent example would be "Rockin' With the Best" by P.O.D.). Most AAA songs don't get farther than this either (such as "You Had Your Soul With You" by The National or "Hypersonic Missiles" by Sam Fender).

3. Nighttime rotation. KPNT has two playlists, a day and a night. The night plays more new music, and if the song tests well at New at Nine, it'll move to here and play regularly at night. This will get the song approximately 20-25 spins a week. These songs usually still feature at New at Nine in-between the test songs. Some songs with this status include "It Doesn't Matter Why" by Silversun Pickups, "Go" by The Black Keys, and "Why Did You Run?" by Judah & The Lion.

4. Heavy rotation. The top 8-12 songs at KPNT are this, they play during the day (when less new music and more recurrents spin) as well as night. Songs with this status include "Monsters" by Shinedown, "Promise Me" by Badflower, "Longshot" by Catfish & The Bottlemen and "Alligator" by Of Monsters and Men.

P.S. Some songs get an exception and outside of formalities jump straight into nighttime or even heavy rotation. "Panic Attack" by The Glorious Sons is the most recent song to receive this treatment, as "S.O.S. (Sawed Off Shotgun)" was really popular in St. Louis, so they've already placed "Panic Attack" into heavy rotation.

KROQ doesn't seem to have this kind of elaborate approach to testing songs and getting them into the rotation at this time, which may be contributing to the problems the station is having.

TheBigA said:
He knows what will work in St. Louis. KYSR plays more currents than The Point, and it they have a 2 share.

No one in the genre has more experience or more respect than KROQ's Kevin Weatherly.
Click to expand...

I thought when you did a count KPNT had 30 to KYSR's 27, unless that's changed recently.
 
Last edited:
macattack said:
I thought when you did a count KPNT had 30 to KYSR's 27, unless that's changed recently.
Click to expand...

New chart today, so Point has 41 to KYSR's 35. Main difference is heavies. with 72 spins on KYSR and 50 on KPNT.

More new music at night isn't unusual. That applies to other formats including country.
 
macattack said:
Fandango's also set up an elaborate system for currents that gets them tested in the public eye.
Click to expand...

What I see from that list you posted being as important as the "testing", is the level of engagement. Rock and alternative stations are not passive background listening formats like AC. It's incredible how many alt/rock stations run nothing but boring voicetracked regular music rotation and then wonder why they don't have ratings.
 
TheBigA said:
If you're talking about the turn of the decade period in rock, between 1988 and 1992, you are correct that the format was a wide mix of things. As a result, some iconic rock stations (such as WNEW-FM in NYC) saw their market shares decline, and ultimately MTV stopped playing music. This was precisely the period when rock became more individual, and the audience became less tolerant for all those sub-genres. Had the grunge audience been willing to listen to rap-rock, things would have been OK. But instead the audiences became more narrow in focus as radio broadened its focus. The rock audience was more tolerant of sub-genres in the 60s and 70s than it was in the 90s. Things haven't improved.
Click to expand...

I was referring more to the era between 1992 and 2004 or so, with the Modern Rock station in Seattle. And it was still getting decent ratings at the time.

Then again, maybe the market here is different. Either way, point taken. The internet and demographic changes seem to have nichified rock more than other formats. I also think the audience is smaller overall because of the demographics.
 
boombox4 said:
I was referring more to the era between 1992 and 2004 or so, with the Modern Rock station in Seattle. And it was still getting decent ratings at the time.
Click to expand...

You have a dedicated non-commercial station there (KEXP) that's financially well endowed, has a great live music facility, and it gets terrible ratings. I hear people constantly complaining about the station, but no for-profit company would commit that kind of money to local music. People don't appreciate the resources they have.
 
macattack said:
The music director for KPNT is Don Fandango... Fandango's also set up an elaborate system for currents that gets them tested in the public eye. Obviously there's affairs going on behind the scenes as well, but in general they follow a four-step process to getting currents into heavy rotation and it seems to work well for them.
Click to expand...

That is not a "test". It is just a system for exposing new music to smaller segments of the audience first. Note that the steps start with time of the day or week when audience levels for radio are at their lowest.

What you describe is simply a stairstep rotational pattern that starts with one show, moves to dayparting and then, maybe gets on the full playlist. Lots of stations do this in one way or another.

But there is no "testing" going on as there is no formal measure of acceptance / rejection. They are just easing the songs into rotation. And I'll bet they look at on-demand statistics and Nielsen moment-by moment (if they buy that data) for guidance.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom