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[vsa]

DAVID WROTE: "There is little if any out of market use of web streams or, in general, out of market stations."

Although you are quite knowledgeable, this is a bad assumption about the web, David. May I refer you to an article about a new study you may not have seen:

What Do Listeners Listen To When They Listen To Radio Online?
Exerpt: ...40% of them (age 12-54 nationally) said they tuned in a specialized Internet radio site, compared to only 26% who listened to their local radio online...In fact, the local sites were barely preferred over non-local radio sites online at 22%.

http://www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?1004058

22% is hardy little or trivial, expecially when local stations barely do better than non-local on the web. This study should contribute toward a wake up call to all broadcasters.

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

vsa,

David's response, which he has done to me about Mark Ramsey President of Hear2.0, will be that Hear2.0 is anti-IBOC, or in some way biased. You should check out David's posts on rec.radio.shortwave, it is the same empty diatribe, as on this site...

Very interesting graph on the number of distant radio listeners - it almost equals the number of local listeners. Since HD/IOBC has only 60% coverage of straight analog, one of David's main arguments is that there are very few distant listeners, so broadcasters don't care, if they lose that segment of the listening audience. I have read to the contray, and that was one of Dr. Conrad's points - that HD/IBOC will alienate a large segment of the original listener base.

Also, to back up your post, in my "iBiquity Financial Mayhem" thread I posted a link to an article that HD Radio is under investigation, by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, for making false claims about HD/IBOC coverage:

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/cpds-hd-radio-coverage-investigation.html

 

[Chuck]

Were people to want to listen to out of market stations, this listening would show up in Arbitron diaries. Arbitron tabulates every single mention of a station in each survedy, and the subscribers can see this. There is little if any out of market use of web streams or, in general, out of market stations. In fact, only a couple of hundred stations in the US show up in markets other than their own, and that is from listening within the station's local contours, whether Am or FM, not from the web or skywave.

Further, Arbitron subscribers can view every single diary for thier mmarketes every time a book is released. If there were out of market listening, we would notice it.

No offence, but you must not be looking very hard. In my market, Radio and Records web site shows 26 commercial stations making the local book (they don't show noncoms which are an additional five or six stations). By my count, there are eight out of market stations included in that list. Some of them beat local stations.

Either I live in a very weird place (that's possible) or out of market stations get significant listenership, at least in some parts of the country. I define "significant listenership" as making the book. I think Arbitron would agree with me.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

You are starting to nit-pick, just like autopaint-1 - yes, I saw, who it was written by, thank you ! You need a better response than that ! I guess, I need to watch my sematics a bit more carefully, since you all have no concrete facts, to counter my posts.

Is any response that doesn't say "Yes, SayNoToIBOC, you are correct!" nitpicking?

It was an IMPORTANT point. It is not an "article". It is a "commentary". If you can't figure out the difference between the two, I can't help you any further.

 

[autopaint-1]

Chuck, You've already said that you are in a small market. How far are you from a major market and maybe you can list some of the out of market rated stations received via skywave from your local book. Radio stations have a geographic area in which they are protected. That is it. You aren't talking about hundreds of thousands of listeners receiving their main radio programing via skywave. Again, not that smaller markets don't matter, but small market numbers are very much in the minority.

 

[davideduardo]

Were people to want to listen to out of market stations, this listening would show up in Arbitron diaries. Arbitron tabulates every single mention of a station in each survedy, and the subscribers can see this. There is little if any out of market use of web streams or, in general, out of market stations. In fact, only a couple of hundred stations in the US show up in markets other than their own, and that is from listening within the station's local contours, whether Am or FM, not from the web or skywave.

Further, Arbitron subscribers can view every single diary for thier mmarketes every time a book is released. If there were out of market listening, we would notice it.

No offence, but you must not be looking very hard. In my market, Radio and Records web site shows 26 commercial stations making the local book (they don't show noncoms which are an additional five or six stations). By my count, there are eight out of market stations included in that list. Some of them beat local stations.

Either I live in a very weird place (that's possible) or out of market stations get significant listenership, at least in some parts of the country. I define "significant listenership" as making the book. I think Arbitron would agree with me.

See my explanation above... out of market stations that show, and there are only a few hundred that do out of 13,500 stations... are ones that have local grade signals in more than one market... so these stations are dual market stations. A good example of this is the large number of LA stations that show in the Riverside / San Bernardino market. These stations are local on both sides of the mountains that separate them.

Also worthy of mention is the fact that many markets are really "part" of another market. San Jose is an embedded market to San Francisco, as is Santa Rosa. Both have books, but both are inside the SF MSA. Another example is Nassau Suffolk, embedded in the NY MSA... separate book but included inside the NY book.

I was, as I have mentioned before, been referring to stations listened to outside their primary contours. Or skywave AM reception. There is very little listening to outside the primary contours of stations. If a station has a primary signal that includes more than one market, they will portentially show in both. But there is nearly no "weak signal" or AM skywave listening.

Since HD will not interfere with primary signals save a few short spaced cases, there is no loss.

 

[autopaint-1]

True, a good east coast example would be the number of NY/eastern Pennsylviania listeners to WLW. Only DXers care about WLW in this part of the country.

 

[Chuck]

Chuck, You've already said that you are in a small market. How far are you from a major market and maybe you can list some of the out of market rated stations received via skywave from your local book. Radio stations have a geographic area in which they are protected. That is it. You aren't talking about hundreds of thousands of listeners receiving their main radio programing via skywave. Again, not that smaller markets don't matter, but small market numbers are very much in the minority.

Our station is a rim-shot to a top 150 market. We only come in well in one of the three counties that is included in the metro. The county we are located in is not included in the metro survey. That is not an uncommon situation. There are lots of rim-shots that David should be very familiar with in the Dallas-Ft. Worth market. He used to work there. He may have even programmed some of those stations. Small fortunes have been made and lost in an effort to move some of these smaller stations into that market. I can't see those owners being very happy about losing coverage. Even though many of these stations don't service all of DFW, they do a good enough job in parts of that metro to be viable. We're doing something similar, just on a smaller scale.

Right now, I have the Fall Arbitron book open in front of me. (The Spring just came out and I don't have a full copy yet). It has a convenient list that they call "Outside Arbitron Radio Metro" included in the book. There are six stations shown that are as much as 125 miles away. I think somebody must be listening to them or they wouldn't bother to list them. They do show up in the ratings; some of them even beat truly local stations rather significantly.

I have a hard time buying the idea that nobody listens to out of market radio. I know that I listen to it, and I know other people who do too. I don’t think that any of these people consider themselves to be DX’ers. The Radio Report Book seems to bear me out. If nobody was listening, why would they show up in our local ratings?

 

[vsa]

CHUCK WROTE: "I have the Fall Arbitron book open in front of me...It has a convenient list that they call "Outside Arbitron Radio Metro" included in the book.  There are six stations shown that are as much as 125 miles away. I think somebody must be listening to them or they wouldn't bother to list them.  They do show up in the ratings; some of them even beat truly local stations rather significantly. I have a hard time buying the idea that nobody listens to out of market radio.  I know that I listen to it, and I know other people who do too. I don’t think that any of these people consider themselves to be DX’ers.   The Radio Report Book seems to bear me out.  If nobody was listening, why would they show up in our local ratings?"

Here's a handy website to measure the signal strength of any U-S radio station, including out-of-market stations - down to the zip code level. Want to know the signal strength of every AM and FM radio station with any kind of signal in a particular zip code? Just go to this website. The data is directly from the FCC's CDBS AM and FM database.

http://www.v-soft.com/ZipSignal/default.htm

There are a few who attempt to spin the facts. Arm yourself with truth and knowledge.

 

[autopaint-1]

Could you please list the stations (so we know what kind of coverage they have) and what market they show up in. I don't know about LA but in NY there are no stations from 100 miles away that appear in our books. I doubt there are any stations such as that in the entire north eastern US. Also, did you say 6 stations? And 125 miles is the max for one of those 6? Well 6 out of thousands, that's a pretty good percentage, I'd say. I'm not being a wise guy but seriously you are talking about six stations in the entire United States. In NYC alone there are well over 42 FM and over 40 AM stations and many more from surrounding areas which can be heard in NYC. There isn't one available frequency other than first adjacents and they aren't licensed in the entire NYC region. We even have a low power Russian station on 87.7 in stereo and you mention 6 stations in the entire country. I'm sorry but considering the numbers it really isn't relavent.

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

Oh autopaint-1,

Have you already forgotten about the graph, in the link, that was provided previously:

http://www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?1004058

local radio sites: 26% of listeners
distant radio sites: 22% of listeners

There was a debate, recently with David, that Wi-Fi Radio does not have an advantage over HD Radio - David stated that people aren't interested in listening outside their local market - same old, same old...

 

[JasonW]

Could you please list the stations (so we know what kind of coverage they have) and what market they show up in. I don't know about LA but in NY there are no stations from 100 miles away that appear in our books. I doubt there are any stations such as that in the entire north eastern US. Also, did you say 6 stations? And 125 miles is the max for one of those 6? Well 6 out of thousands, that's a pretty good percentage, I'd say. I'm not being a wise guy but seriously you are talking about six stations in the entire United States. In NYC alone there are well over 42 FM and over 40 AM stations and many more from surrounding areas which can be heard in NYC. There isn't one available frequency other than first adjacents and they aren't licensed in the entire NYC region. We even have a low power Russian station on 87.7 in stereo and you mention 6 stations in the entire country. I'm sorry but considering the numbers it really isn't relavent.

In Florida, WQAM 560 and WIOD 610 in Miami can be heard clearly almost as far North as Deland (234 miles away). The talk shows on those stations only have telephone numbers for Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties, yet they get calls from distant listeners (who aren't DXers requesting QSL cards <grin>) all over the area of Florida covered by their signals, which is well beyond their service areas.


-- Jason

 

[autopaint-1]

I'm not going to get between you two. I will say as I've said in the past, Wi-Fi has great potential over any of the current delivery systems. That said there are a few problems. Number one, the infrastucture to make Wi-Fi available over large areas isn't available yet and with the fight surrounding BPL it may be many years before Wi-Fi becomes a reality. Wi-Fi will require payment for services as opposed to free over the air broadcasting. There are many people who just don't have the money to pay an extra monthly bill. What would happen to them? Wi-fi currently has limitations. It is too succeptable to outages as compared with over the air broadcasting. Being one who worked in Manhattan at the network level on 9/11/2001 I can tell you first hand what happpened to services such as Cell Phones, ISDN, Television (Their transmitters were on the WTC) and Internet service failed. However, AM broadcasting continued unaffected. In the case of a disaster I'd hate to see that kind of communications system not be available. remember, if we stay with the status quo, AM broadcasting as we know it will not be able to survive. The audience for most AM stations is old and dying off with few young replacement listeners. Number two, where are the car radios? I don't see anyone jumping on the bandwagon manufacturing WI-Fi capable car radios and there's only a single table top Wi-Fi radio. I haven't heard from other manufacturers that they intend to produce Wi_Fi radios. So those are but two reasons that we are years from Wi_Fi radio as anything bt a curious look into the future. On the other hand there is a reason why traditional broadcasters are making their presence known on the internet. The numbers of people interested in Romanian folk dance music is dwarfed by the number of people who currently listen to WFAN on line. These are only delivery methods. Content is what matters.

 

[davideduardo]

Oh autopaint-1,

Have you already forgotten about the graph, in the link, that was provided previously:

http://www.emarketer.com/Article.aspx?1004058

local radio sites: 26% of listeners
distant radio sites: 22% of listeners

There was a debate, recently with David, that Wi-Fi Radio does not have an advantage over HD Radio - David stated that people aren't interested in listening outside their local market - same old, same old...

There you go again presenting partial data.

Last night, I did 100 16-28 year olds and found out that 78% did not listen to radio / streaming on the computer at all.

SO, you are obfuscating. You first have to find out if a behaviour is common before you examine it. Nearly 4 out of every 5 int hat age group do not listen to any streaming.

Of those who do, the usage is less than two hours a week (80%) and more than half of that is less than an hour.

At that point, trying to find out where the stations they listen to are from is irrelevant because there is not enough sample size.

In LA, 94% of Teens and Young adulsts (18-24) use radio weekly. The average listening is 13 hours and 45 minutes for teens and 19 hours 15 minutes for 18-24's. I checked a variety of other markets from Chicago to NY to Miami and the varinces are minimal.

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

Blah.. Blah... Blah...

 

[autopaint-1]

"In Florida, WQAM 560 and WIOD 610 in Miami can be heard clearly almost as far North as Deland (234 miles away)."

Again, an aberation. If those stations can be heard at all it's from people living on the coast where the stations signal takes a salt water path. My family lives in Tampa and you can't hear any Miami stations there and it's nowhere near 100 miles from Miami. You guys are coming up with situations that don't represent the majority of Americans or even a large minoirty. These locations are not protected by the terms of their licenses and they don't sell in those areas either. Broadcast stations by the terms of their licenses have a protected region which are guaranteed to be interference free (From other stations, not natural forms of interference) and outside of those areas, there are no promises. For instance, if a station can be heard by a coal miner 600 miles north of a station locaed in Alabama every other Thursday afternoon, by law, it matters not. That's the reality, the rest is not relivent.

 

[autopaint-1]

"Blah.. Blah... Blah... "

Pathetic, but I have to admit, you're on topic if we're talking about Ray Barretto lyric (Heard at the end of El Watusi). Watusi Muchacho!!!

 

[JasonW]

"In Florida, WQAM 560 and WIOD 610 in Miami can be heard clearly almost as far North as Deland (234 miles away)."

Again, an aberation. If those stations can be heard at all it's from people living on the coast where the stations signal takes a salt water path. My family lives in Tampa and you can't hear any Miami stations there and it's nowhere near 100 miles from Miami. You guys are coming up with situations that don't represent the majority of Americans or even a large minoirty. These locations are not protected by the terms of their licenses and they don't sell in those areas either. Broadcast stations by the terms of their licenses have a protected region which are guaranteed to be interference free (From other stations, not natural forms of interference) and outside of those areas, there are no promises. For instance, if a station can be heard by a coal miner 600 miles north of a station locaed in Alabama every other Thursday afternoon, by law, it matters not. That's the reality, the rest is not relivent.

Deland isn't on the coast. Also, I've heard both of those stations that far North while driving in the interior of the state. Here in Alaska, the Anchorage, Fairbanks, and Juneau AM stations serve scores if not hundreds of small towns and villages that are far outside the stations' service areas. (That's why many of their sponsors offer "Bush Delivery" for their products.)

-- Jason

 

[autopaint-1]

Well how is it that Miami stations are not audible in Tampa? I have spent years listening to radio in Tampa in both cars and on all types of radio and yet Miami is really not audible there. I would venture to guess that those two Miami stations have an audience you could count on one hand at beat in that remote location. What's fasacinating is that WIOD day and night is directional south east. That must be a miracle station to cover that far north when they have a null in that direction. WQAM at 5 K day and it's low frequency my be heard slightly, although I doubt it during the day, but at night it's 1 K. As for Alaska, what can I say. It's not exactly comparable to NY, LA or Chicago either population wise of in the number of available radio sattions. Alaska is not an urban center by any means. Even it's cities have relatively small population figures compared to the continental US.

 

[JasonW]

Well how is it that Miami stations are not audible in Tampa? I have spent years listening to radio in Tampa in both cars and on all types of radio and yet Miami is really not audible there. I would venture to guess that those two Miami stations have an audience you could count on one hand at beat in that remote location. What's fasacinating is that WIOD day and night is directional south east. That must be a miracle station to cover that far north when they have a null in that direction. WQAM at 5 K day and it's low frequency my be heard slightly, although I doubt it during the day, but at night it's 1 K. As for Alaska, what can I say. It's not exactly comparable to NY, LA or Chicago either population wise of in the number of available radio sattions. Alaska is not an urban center by any means. Even it's cities have relatively small population figures compared to the continental US.

Because AM propagation (especially at the low end of the band) is largely by groundwave propagation, where the signal will go and how far is dependent on soil conductivity. Aiming and adjustment of AM directional arrays is as much art as science (the common term of it being a "black art" isn't far off the mark), and it is as much empirical as theoretical.

Many sparsely-populated states, especially those in the Midwest and West, are not so different from Alaska in this regard, where stations in the population centers also serve many smaller communities scattered throughout their states, sometimes by skywave propagation.

-- Jason