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How about a mic proc survey?

"BTW...compression FIRST...then EQ"

i gots to respectfully disagree - i EQ first, THEN compress. Here's why: I'm cutting the lows. 60Hz and lower. The ambient rumbles that my large diaphragm mic picks up, but have no place in a voice track. I certainly don't want the compressor reacting to a sound which will then be removed from the mix.

I've always compressed AFTER subtractive EQ, but will compress before additive EQ.. if that makes sense.
 
Jeff Berlin said:
"BTW...compression FIRST...then EQ"

i gots to respectfully disagree - i EQ first, THEN compress. Here's why: I'm cutting the lows. 60Hz and lower. The ambient rumbles that my large diaphragm mic picks up, but have no place in a voice track. I certainly don't want the compressor reacting to a sound which will then be removed from the mix.

I've always compressed AFTER subtractive EQ, but will compress before additive EQ.. if that makes sense.
Click to expand...


Hi Jeff, you using a LDC? I thought you rocked the 416?

I too eq then compress. I don't know as much as Jeff B or Catfish about rolling off this n that... but the audio sounds ok ;)

Chuck Matthews
 
Jeff brings up a good point...High pass filters should, indeed, be done before compression...There are several reasons for this. Other subtractive EQ is debatable, but the HFP should come at the preamp stage. HPFs aren't really considered "processing" and can seldom be re-ordered in the chain. On most channel strips, the HPF comes at the preamp stage, while the full EQ is placed later in the chain by design. Most preamps have a dedicated HPF, elimiating the need to EQ it later. One exception is the 528E, which is lacking a HPF...But in my opinion, that box design is full of flaws anyway.

On another note, I tested out some mic/pre combos this week. Monday night I brought home a Chandler Limited TG-1 Abbey Road Edition. It's a nice pre, but it's a little pricey for what it gives you, IMO. Last night I brought home a Shure KSM 44 and TRUE Systems P-Solo. So far, here have been my tested combos:

AT4040 + Focusrite Voicemaster Pro (My normal setup)
AT4040 + Chandler Limited TG-2
AT4040 + TRUE Systems P-Solo
AT4040 + Soundcraft M4 console pre
KSM 44 + Focusrite Voicemaster Pro
KSM 44 + TRUE Systems P-Solo
KSM 44 + Soundcraft M4 console pre

ABX testing was done with all combos and absolutely no processing. In ABX testing, I chose my normal setup as my favorite, oddly enough. In my tests, all three with the KSM 44 were the first to go. I think this mic would sound great on acoustic guitar and maybe a female voice, but I just didn't care much for it at all. With the remaining recordings (which were all of the AT4040), the next to be cut was the Soundcraft M4 pre. The next three were tougher. The TRUE was cut next. It was the quietest of the bunch, but a little dark for my taste, though I wouldn't really call that a negative. It would work very nicely for some things and it was very clean, but just a little "plain" for me. It was probably the least colored also, but I prefer a little color. The final two were an impossible choice. They were different, but picking a favorite was very hard...They both had things I liked, but ultimately, the Voicemaster was a little more "up front" sounding. It had slightly less detail in the highs and lows, but made up for it with a little more midrange detail. I can safely recommend the Chandler TG preamps, but considering the price difference, it gets my recommendation based entirely on the sound and not the value. I have certainly heard less expensive pres that I like better. Take it for what it's worth!

Emmett
 
My latest setup is a Gefell MT71s into a GML 2032 with a Purple MC77 in the insert position of the GML.
I eq AFTER compression, but use the 40 HZ highpass filter on the GML BEFORE compression.
I'm still working on tweaking it, but am getting closer to the sound I've been looking for. It's much cleaner than my previous setup with the Manley Voxbox.
 
SkinnyJohnny said:
My latest setup is a Gefell MT71s into a GML 2032 with a Purple MC77 in the insert position of the GML.
I eq AFTER compression, but use the 40 HZ highpass filter on the GML BEFORE compression.
I'm still working on tweaking it, but am getting closer to the sound I've been looking for. It's much cleaner than my previous setup with the Manley Voxbox.
Click to expand...

CLIPS! CLIPS! WE WANT CLIPS!

jj
 
SkinnyJohnny said:
Here you go....
http://www.johnweeksaudio.com/micchains/Gefell_GML_Purple.mp3
Comments and suggestions welcome.
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link, John!

I think that's a nice, warm, smooth sound great for narration.

Of course it's all a matter of taste, but for spots, I think you could back off the mic a couple more inches and have a little less wooly buildup in the 200-250Hz range, yet still have a nice bottom. For a 6" distance, I use the "hitchin' a ride" position on my hand, and for 8" use the ASL "love you" position with thumb and pinkie extended. But, ya know I got short stubby finners on my widdow porky hands.

With just the 2dB of compression, I can tell on the meter that the Purple is riding gain, but can't hear it. Really transparent, and I didn't expect that from an 1176 type. It would be interesting to hear about 6dB of compression on the Purple's VU, with the attack as slow as possible (which is still blisteringly fast on this comp at 800us) and a medium-fast release (like 2-3 o'clock), say in the 200ms range. I would bet that in a spot, these settings and mic distance would give you really good imaging and let you have a dense mix.

Now, this is strictly my own personal taste, but I'd also like to hear a lift of +4dB at 3kHz with a Q of 1 octave, rather than at 5k, and another lift for "air" of +4dB at 12.5 or 15kHz with a Q of 1 octave. I hate to use generalizations regarding EQ, but generally that has worked remarkably well for me on most folks I've recorded, including myself. The mids at 3-3.5k help the voice pop thru a little better, without exacerbating the sibilance range too much. And don't forget, you've already got a little lift going on centered around 7kHz on your M71.

So go ahead, tell me I'm deaf! I'll just ask you to repeat that, please.

Regarding your monitors, I know a lot of guys swear by the Sentry 100's. But they do have a unique signature that tends to make a flat RE-20 sound flattering. Plus, as old as they must be, they might be getting a little fatigue on the cones, even if you've had the foam surrounds replaced. Just something for the Gearslut in you to think about. Ty Ford complains that on newer monitors, he can hear the plastic in the woofers. Well, my complaint against the Sentry 100's is that I can hear the cardboard in the woofers. To each his own. But I really like the composite woofers and Vifa tweeters in my Tannoy PBM8-II's. The PBM8's are a little bottom heavy in my current room, but I'd still order a pair of the newer Reveal 8's without having heard them, and without hesitation.

Incidentally, I think with these light amounts of EQ, it won't matter much whether the EQ is pre- or post-compression. We're not getting radical here.

Thanks again for the link, John, it's always a pleasure to hear your voice, especially thru the GML. I think that with the GML and the Purple, you've got a lifetime setup there. <takes out calculator and says it's worth it>

JJ
 
Hi Jeff,
Thank you so much for the input. Narration is, by far, what I mostly do.
I'll take your suggestions and run with them and see what I come up with.
More files to come post JJ settings.
As far as monitors go, I was looking into the Focal line. I've heard really good things about them and not sure if they are overpriced or not. I've also considered the Genelec's but am pretty sure that they are overpriced.
Thanks again for your help!
John
 
Cool! I'm really looking forward to hearing the new files!

I've not heard the Focals, but I do know they have a reputation as quite a good audiophile speaker line. I heard the bottom of the line Genelecs at Grandma's Music in ABQ, but couldn't tell anything about them in the noisy store. They were just set up on some keyboards. Must be nice to be relatively close to Nashville!

jj
 
SkinnyJohnny said:
Hi Jeff,
Thank you so much for the input. Narration is, by far, what I mostly do.
I'll take your suggestions and run with them and see what I come up with.
More files to come post JJ settings.
As far as monitors go, I was looking into the Focal line. I've heard really good things about them and not sure if they are overpriced or not. I've also considered the Genelec's but am pretty sure that they are overpriced.
Thanks again for your help!
John
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call either one "overpriced". They're both expensive, but they sound superb...You really can't do a hell of a lot better though. For a little less money, the Event Opals are really good.

Emmett
 
This is a great thread !

Anyone gotten their hands on the new Empirical Labs Channelstrip? The "Mike-E". I suspect this box may be destined to be a classic.

jb
 
SkinnyJohnny said:
OK, I made the adjustments Jeff Jasper suggested http://www.johnweeksaudio.com/micchains/Gefell_GML_Purple_Jasper.mp3

And another setting here....
http://www.johnweeksaudio.com/micchains/Gefell_GML_Purple_eq2.mp3

Any thoughts?

Thanks!!!!!
Click to expand...

Well, predictably, I do prefer the more aggressive sound of the file with the +4dB boosts at 3k and 12k. The file with the +2dB boosts at 3.5 and 15k sounds more "hifi smile curve," which is nice, but just doesn't sound as "alive" to me as the more aggressive settings. John, you might see how +4dB works at 3.5kHz as well, or even 4k, altho that's getting close to exacerbating sibilants. With the 3k boost, the sibilants are sounding well-placed and very natural to me. On your copy read, it was like a vibrancy that took 10 years off your voice and made you sound focused and energetic, yet you were still relaxed as if the energy came easily. A more powerful sound.

The compression sounds good and pretty moderate, just very well-controlled. If FET compressors such as the Purple have a little more distortion than an opto or VCA, I couldn't hear it. It just sounded good. I wouldn't hesitate to use those settings even on narration.

I'm glad you kept the 40Hz filter in. For voice, I couldn't imagine not using it, especially with most mics having only a more drastic 80Hz rolloff, or none at all like the TLMs...which has always been my big complaint against the TLM103. I hate editing thru rumble.

You might toy with +5dB @ 3 or 3.5k; it may or may not be too much. But I sure like what I'm hearing. And like Fletcher says, YMMV.

Everybody, please feel free to comment! I'm no Jeff Laurence -- I just aspire to be one on TV. ;D

jj
 
Jeff Berlin said:
This is a great thread !

Anyone gotten their hands on the new Empirical Labs Channelstrip? The "Mike-E". I suspect this box may be destined to be a classic.

jb
Click to expand...

The Mike E does look interesting!

Also, if anyone has tried the Buzz Audio ARC 1.1 or the API 7600, I'd sure like to see comments about those.

I am torn. I love the idea of having separates like John's GML 2032 and the Purple. But, the aux sends and multiple outputs of the API 7600 would solve a lot of problems for me with its stereo outs to the DAW, and ability to feed a headphone amp directly from the strip, as well as the phone patch and ISDN, all at the same time. And the 225L compressor is the same as the stereo 2500 without the "thrust" control. The 2500 is getting rave reviews. The downside of the API is that the bandwidth on the EQ is not adjustable, and at the moderate settings I like to use (John's +4 settings above), it's a bit broad of a hump at 1.5 octaves. That API aggressive sound might be nice tho....

BUT! The Buzz ARC has a fast, neutral preamp like the GML, with a full-featured EQ, and a very popular opto compressor followed by a brick wall peak limiter for those nasty spikes. But it doesn't have all those nice outputs....

But the GML can't be beat, and I could try a bunch of different compressors for the gearslut in me!

And so I loop. And did I mention the API A2D....might be nice paired with a Speck EQ and a Distressor....AND has a nice converter.

Comments?

jj
 
You have to think about the sound that you want. The API pre is the complete opposite end of the spectrum as the GML. You mention the Buzz, which I doubt is anywhere nearly as transparent as the GML. To my ears, nothing is. So are you looking for transparent or colored?

Emmett
 
Emmett said:
You have to think about the sound that you want. The API pre is the complete opposite end of the spectrum as the GML. You mention the Buzz, which I doubt is anywhere nearly as transparent as the GML. To my ears, nothing is. So are you looking for transparent or colored?

Emmett
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply, Emmett. I generally prefer transparency.

But if there is a color, I'd prefer that color to be "in your face" like API or Pacifica (or A-Designs P1), rather than laid-back and fat like Neve or good tubes. The pre that really knocks me out every time is the Grace, which you can hear here on Troy Duran's site http://www.troyduran.com. It sounds effortless.

Some people like the fatness of transformers, but I like the natural quality of the bass of the transformerless GML and Grace. One thing that does concern me about the API 7600 is that if you use all the components of the strip (and I will), the signal passes thru at least 6 transformers. I could be wrong, haven't heard it, but to me that says a lot of bottom-end smear. That's a lot of girth I'm not sure I want, all offset somewhat, maybe, by the edge and sparkle of the 2520 opamp. Somehow, Mimi of the Drew Carey Show comes to mind. Or, the phrase "lipstick on a pig."

The Buzz is supposed to be somewhat faster than the GML. Buzz Audio makes three pres. The 2.2 is all discrete components, with a slew rate of 140V/us. The 1.1 is chip plus discrete, with a slew rate equal to the all-discrete GML at 30V/us, and the ARC pre is all-discrete with a slew rate of 50V/us, somewhat faster than the GML. The ARC pre and its other internal components are all transformerless, but you can switch in a "heavily colored" transformer on the strip's output if you want some color. Ignoring compression, the slew rate of the box as a whole is going to be limited by the opto compressor's opamp at 20V/us. Which is about what I've got right now with the Symetrix 628 at 18V/us, and the same as the John Hardy. My little mind can't imagine using something slower or more colored than what I've got now, and the API is 1.2V/us.

I realise that there's more to transparency than transformers and slew rate, so if you have any thoughts about that I'd like to hear them.

I'd be happy with a sound that's in-your-face due to moderate EQ and compression and the effects of the the mic. Most of the time for me, part of that effect comes from the short-shotgun nature of the MKH416, but occasionally I also use a TLM103, AKG414 XLS, U87Ai, or Beyer M500. I'm more interested in good stereo imaging than with wall-to-wall girth. Girth can come from proximity effect; I don't really want it coming from the electronics unless I EQ it in (and I never do).

A concern of mine is that I ultimately need 5 outputs, and I don't want to run thru a lot of electronics to get them. I need stereo-out to the DAW because on mine dealing with a mono track in a stereo project is a pain. Then I need mono outs for a headphone/monitor, phone patch, and in the future, ISDN. I don't want the quality of my mic channel to be limited by the chips in a cheap console. The best alternative I can see, short of the API 7600, is a splitter with a bunch of Jensen transformers. I'm ok with good Jensens. I CANNOT monitor from the DAW due to latency. (Yeah, I know I need a new DAW, but that's for the future as well.)

My mind is simply not gelling on quite how to achieve this, so I'd love to hear some possible solutions.

Thanks!
jj
 
Emmett said:
What interface are you using to the DAW?
Click to expand...

I'm coming out of the Symetrix 628's AES/EBU into the AES/EBU of an MTU MicroSound Krystal with the rackmount I/O box. One of the Symetrix's analog outs goes to an input on a Mackie 16x8 for monitoring.

I'd like to ditch the Mackie completely, and go to some type of monitor controller and a pair of analog VU meters like the Logitech or Coleman. The only audio going thru the Mackie that gets recorded is an outboard reverb loop. The main benefit of the Mackie seems to be to keep the room warm in the winter time. A secondary benefit is the analog meter bridge. :)

I wouldn't mind getting some kind of cheap, smaller, non-Behringer mixer to use for monitoring, phone patch, ISDN send, and meter output, as an alternative to that scheme, tho. But I gotta have some analog meters.

jj
 
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