• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

How bad IS radio's business model?

Re: How You're Wrong

SirRoxalot said:
I'd bet that radio salaries - outside MANAGEMENT - are stagnant or less than 10 years ago.

If the topic is about people who used to own radio stations coming back after ten years to buy stations at the right price, which is the situation you described, they would also have to deal with management salaries. So you must include management salaries into the costs they'd have to handle once taking control of stations. And if they've gone up in ten years (even if other salaries have been stagnant), then salaries at the station have gone up, and the new owners would have to deal with them.

SirRoxalot said:
In Buffalo, salary has ALWAYS been tied to revenue. It may not have been "instant gratification", but you'd better believe that your numbers better be up if you were going to ask the boss for a raise.

This may come as a surprise to you, but increases in ratings don't always guarantee an increase in revenues. Revenues have been down at stations that have seen increases in ratings. That relates to the overall depression in advertising that's been going on for the past 3 years.
 
Re: How You're Wrong

So, what you're saying is that talent costs have gone down, staff costs have gone down, equipment costs have gone down, sales costs have gone down, but management costs have gone UP?

But wait, I thought consolidation was supposed to SAVE us money? Are you saying that consolidation has, instead, added layers of EXPENSIVE bureaucracy?

New management simply has to buy at a price that doesn't leave them with a ridiculous debt-to-income ratio that assumes double-digit annual growth, and hire people in each market who can do the job without multiple layers of corporate "oversight".

TheBigA said:
This may come as a surprise to you, but increases in ratings don't always guarantee an increase in revenues. Revenues have been down at stations that have seen increases in ratings. That relates to the overall depression in advertising that's been going on for the past 3 years.

Bud, I've probably been in radio longer than you have. Ratings have never meant squat if you couldn't turn them into revenue. "Stagnant" salaries and decreased staffing on the local level have been going on in this market for a lot longer than three years. 2009 is barely a month old, and it's been a freakin' NIGHTMARE for everybody in this market. The cuts here are far deeper than those dictated by any local revenue decrease. We're paying the price for STUPID decisions made far above any local pay grade.
 
Re: How You're Wrong

SirRoxalot said:
So, what you're saying is that talent costs have gone down, staff costs have gone down, equipment costs have gone down, sales costs have gone down, but management costs have gone UP?

You're the one saying talent costs have gone down. The talent I know have all received huge increases during the last five years. Good thing they don't work in Buffalo. If Buffalo talent want more money, my suggestion is go where the weather is warm. IF you really have talent.

SirRoxalot said:
Ratings have never meant squat if you couldn't turn them into revenue.

Welcome to the 21st century. Now you know why everyone is getting fired. Talk to your sales department. Ask them what's really going on. You may be surprised.
 
Like most economic situations, there isn't any ONE thing you can point to and say "that's why radio is unprofitable today".

In fact, a lot of radio IS profitable, still...it's just not profitable enough. I suppose that segues nicely into the one thing, if you could say there is one thing, that is the "root cause" of radio's problems: publicly-traded companies owning the stations. As has been mentioned, Wall Street cares about one thing and one thing only: growth. If you ain't growing, your stock tanks. Worse, if your every move isn't targeted towards encouraging growth, your stock tanks. And if you don't always work towards making your stock be worth more, you actually can be sued because you're under a legal obligation to deliver the most value to your shareholders.

Of course, often you personally are a big shareholder, so anything to pump up that stock price is good because it makes you rich while you're at it.

This creates a mindset that led to several of the factors we can point to as "problems with radio":
  • The TelComm Act's deregulation of ownership was the easiest path for these companies to achieve phenomenal growth.
  • While acquiring these stations led to massive debt loads, it didn't matter because you could always get more credit to buy more stations because buying more stations meant your stock kept going up and up, thus serving as collateral for more credit.
  • The consolidation allowed for national-level operations and thus more resources could be selectively targeted in high-value markets, thus increasing earnings even more.

These factors alone would inevitably lead to radio's collapse, because there is no such thing as a workable model for unlimited growth. Sooner or later there HAS to be a contraction...or a crash. What hastened things along spiritedly was mostly due to the rise of the internet. That led to a drastic reduction in operation costs as you could use computers to reduce staff dramatically, and increase productivity of the remaining staff. Of course, in their all-out sprint to maximize growth for Wall Street, most radio companies took that concept WAY too far...but I digress.

The internet also gave rise to the MP3 algorithm, and high-speed internet available in the home. Those suddenly stripped radio of its exclusiveness as purveyor of music to the masses. That took what would be a serious problem and made it into a full-blown crisis. Worse, radio's (and the music industry as a whole) remarkable lack of adaptation led to an entire generation of children growing up thinking radio barely existed...much less was a relevant force in their lives. The ramifications of that were due to be felt eventually...I think the pain of this recession will "mask" that generational impact; it's quite possible that as the rest of the economy recovers over the next few years, we'll see radio continue to stagnate as nobody bothers to "come back" to a dying medium. Certainly newspapers will face that reality nose-to-nose...who knows if they'll successfully adapt?

I have heard several whispers from people...nobody in a position to know for sure, but whispers nonetheless...that before the year is out we'll see some of the bigger companies pushing an Obama-run FCC to re-regulate the AM/FM market and put the ownership caps back to some degree. The reason why is that in exchange for it, companies that fragment themselves get their debt load forgiven. A lot of these places could still be perfectly profitable, even with the recession mauling ad revenue, if they didn't have a crushing debt load.

After all, it doesn't matter if you make millions of dollars in revenue when you've got billions in debt!
 
aaronread said:
I suppose that segues nicely into the one thing, if you could say there is one thing, that is the "root cause" of radio's problems: publicly-traded companies owning the stations.

Except that publicly traded companies have owned radio stations since radio was invented. The stock market funded the invention and growth of radio. Marconi himself ran a publicly traded company. Westinghouse, which started KDKA and WJZ, was a publicly traded company. RCA (NBC) and CBS were publicly traded companies. General Electric is a publicly traded company. All these insurance companies were publicly traded. On and on and on.

aaronread said:
I have heard several whispers from people...nobody in a position to know for sure, but whispers nonetheless...that before the year is out we'll see some of the bigger companies pushing an Obama-run FCC to re-regulate the AM/FM market and put the ownership caps back to some degree. The reason why is that in exchange for it, companies that fragment themselves get their debt load forgiven.

I can't imagine how that would happen. The banks and other credit companies have refused to co-operate with the government in any way. They're sitting on the money, spending it on themselves, and watching Rome burn.

The main thing the Obama government wants is minority ownership of the media. So there could be donations of frequencies to minorities in exchange for huge tax credits. But the minority-owned media I've studied isn't necessarily smarter or more content-oriented than the current owners. So while that might help the companies out of their hole, it won't improve the state of radio to a large degree. Unless you want more Spanish-language programming on the radio. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It just won't help get out of work radio prople rehired.
 
This exchange between Aaronread and TheBigA give us some things to think about, to go back and examine.

It has been very popular to jump on the Internet and the iPod (and other mp3 players) as big "changers of the playing field" for radio.

Aaronread puts a lot of blame at the feet of public-stock companies for current ills, and TheBigA reminds us that public companies have had a hand in broadcasting since the beginning. Someone with a bit more expertise on the stock market than I have will have to shed some light on this question: My perception is that public stock companies used to operate in.... in... well for lack of a better description... a more civilized manner. In recent years we seem to have this perfect storm where private equity/hedge-fund style investing has radically changed the financial world. In a recent interview some opinionated person pointed out that the financial industry (Wall Street, investment bankers, stock brokers, etc) used to he about half the size of manufacturing in our national financial picture. With a lot of manufacturing now being done abroad, and the "super-charging/super-sizing" growth of the financial industry, the "finance industry" is now twice as big as manufacturing in our national economy. That means more political clout for one thing. That means attracting those most talented people who are most hyper-driven by the profit incentive.

If you can decipher that previous paragraph, maybe you can ponder this question: Is the change in style and behavior of the old RCA, GE, WESTINGHOUSE, etc compared to today's venture-capital-driven public stock companies possible a bigger factor in the change of broadcasting than is the Internet and the iPod combined?

I'm not ready to make that claim and defend the argument. I simply offer it as a force that I don't think we have dealt with in our discussions.

As to the comments that the advertising pie may be diminishing or being split by more players, remember that radio's competitor media firms ARE ALSO MAKING CHANGES due to the ownership by today's "hyper capitalism" as I Kevin Philips described the change in corporations. Our competitors are also facing a more vicious market condition, and are owner by these new more vicious breed of capitalists.
 
The public traded companies of the old days had major differences from the mega media companies of today. There were actual rules & regulations of owning broadcast companies. First of all, the number of stations you could own: 7 AM's, 7FM's and 7 TV's. There were program requirements, so much news and public affairs. Broadcast stations were required to serve "in the public interests". And there was the fairness doctrine - equal time requirements. Plus the technical requirements, most stations required a 3rd phone (or 1st ticket) on the transmitter log at all times. Plus your license came up for renewal every three years. It was a lot more difficult and expensive to run a station back in the old days. Now days a broadcast license is even more of an oppitunity to print money and these big operators have blown it, big time! They get no sympathy from me.
 
therealjm12 said:
And there was the fairness doctrine - equal time requirements.


Just to clarify: The Fairness Doctrine is not the same thing as Equal Time. Two very different things. Equal Time is still required today.

As I've said, I'll go back to all the old rules if the FCC will chop down the number of radio licenses to where it was in the 1960s. Back then, there were about 4,000 AM & FM stations. There are over 14,000 today. The geometric explosion of licenses, which happened in the 80s, led to the end of all the requirements you listed, including 7-7-7. Too many radio stations, and the FCC budget has been cut year in and year out. They have no staff to handle the rules.
 
therealjm12 said:
The public traded companies of the old days had major differences from the mega media companies of today. There were actual rules & regulations of owning broadcast companies. First of all, the number of stations you could own: 7 AM's, 7FM's and 7 TV's. There were program requirements, so much news and public affairs. Broadcast stations were required to serve "in the public interests".

That's all true, but I am asking about a totally different point. forget broadcasting for a moment. I'm talking about the way companies do business. Today's corporations make harsh, tough, brutal, fast decisions that the very same companies did not implement the same way 40 to 60 years ago. I don't care if they make computers, cars, microphone cable or ball-point pens. Pardon the rather aburpt language: "You've got to be one tough s.o.b. to be the CEO of a public corporation today compared to what you would have been doing in the 1950s.

Once you understand the nuance of what I am saying, that opens up a number of questions. Because of all those FCC policies of the earlier years, I think there were a number of companies who refused to enter the broadcast area. Seven radio stations wasn't a big enough kettle of fish to appoint a vice-president to oversee. Corporations of that era did not want the bad image it would cause if they goofed up and were found guilty of violating government rules. Public image was a different animal in that era.

I served on a committee of broadcasters in a metro area during the Civil Rights era. We looked for policy and action to make Civil Rights work in our city and to make it clear to the minorites that we were working on it. Our chairman had a job as vice-president over what we would call a cluster today for Time-Life Broadcasting. He was the most respected broadcaster in the metro area. From our conversations I have no doubt there were days when he, in his smooth and very nice way, told Time-Life Corporate to "blow it out their ear" when they proposed changes that were not good for broadcasting as an industry.

Try talking like that with the corporate office of today's corporations.
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
I'm not ready to make that claim and defend the argument. I simply offer it as a force that I don't think we have dealt with in our discussions.


I think you're right, and the reason probably is we don't live in that world. I occasionally get to chat with "venture capitalists," as they call themselves. These are some interesting animals. When they were teenagers, they were buying and selling penny stocks, while their friends were playing base ball. We're all radio geeks, and they're money geeks. They speak a very different language than the rest of us.

A while ago, someone pointed out that America used to be the center of manufacturing. Steel, tires, electronics, cars, etc etc. Labor costs moved all the manufacturing to other countries. So what's left in the US? Service industries. Fast food, retail, health care, education, sales. We don't make things any more. That has led to this group of people you talk about, the investment bankers and venture capitalists. People who make money making money. What kind of life is that? But those are the people who this economy depends on now, because the rest of the business has up and gone.
 
The Long View

One of the real problems with the venture capitalists - and with radio - is that nobody looks at the long term. Everything is oriented toward quick profit, not steady growth. It's the "penny stock model" - buy, wait for a bump, then sell at a profit. Don't worry about operating, or the long term health of the company. Make a quick profit and get out.

Businesses based in the manufacturing sector required investment in machinery and materials that had to be amortized over a long term. Businesses had to be more conservative in their estimates of growth, and plan for downturns brought about by the business cycle and unexpected world events. Decisions were based on experience, which was generally gained over a long period of time.

History and experience have been replaced by the spreadsheet. Number crunchers have cobbled together formulas for EVERYTHING, and focused on immediate results. Unfortunately, those spreadsheets don't - and can't - take ALL the factors into account. Data was supposed to HELP make decisions, not be the decision maker. Whether we're talking about shaving hundredths of a cent in the manufacturing process, or selecting music, the spreadsheet numbers don't always add up to a better product, or real savings.

People started trading radio stations like real estate in the '80. In effect, it was a Pyramid scheme. The fallback position was "Supply is limited, and there's always demand that will buy it from us for more than we paid for it if we screw up. If we maximize profit now, we'll get even more when we sell it." If it hadn't been for deregulation in the '90s, the house of cards would have likely collapsed ten years ago. Instead, we got the consolidators, who built the pyramid bigger and higher.

The result? "Maximizing profit" meant cutting the costs that weren't fixed - people. The amount of talent and expertise that was jettisoned to maximize profit and pay the salaries of the the "corporate oversight" layer of management led to sterile, uninteresting programming that cost a steady flow of listeners, and reduced TSL. Advertisers felt that they weren't getting the same bang for their buck when they were stuck in the middle of a six minute stopset, and there were precious few experienced sales people around to help make sure that they felt like they were getting bang for their buck. In truth, with fewer production people, the loss of copy writers and other "back office" talent, they probably weren't getting the same bang for their buck.

Meanwhile, the consolidators were pushing rate up and up and up to pay for the debt they incurred buying the stations. From a management standpoint, fewer advertisers with deeper pockets was a plus. It's like any small business with a few big customers. When one of those customers pulls out - like the automakers dropping all national advertising, and cutting co-op to local dealers - there's a big hole in revenue. If you don't have enough sales people, or don't have existing relationships with other advertisers, there's a real problem filling that gaping hole.

Which brings us to where we are today. Short-term thinking got burned by the long term economy. The Internet exacerbated the problem because now there's access to alternative sources of audio information and entertainment. It's not as convenient, but it's wide spread enough to have significant impact. The result is that there is no pent-up demand for radio stations - at least not at the price paid by the consolidators - and the house of cards is collapsing.

Once the collapse is over, the deck will be reshuffled, and the game will begin anew. Will it be the same game? Not if people are smart enough to learn from history. For at least a while, it's likely to be a smaller game run by smarter operators, and focused on rebuilding both advertising bases and audiences.
 
Re: The Long View

SirRoxalot said:
Make a quick profit and get out.

Except none of them got out. This was not a short term deal for any of them. Certainly not CBS.

SirRoxalot said:
Meanwhile, the consolidators were pushing rate up and up and up to pay for the debt they incurred buying the stations.

I thought you said in another post they were driving spot prices down to hurt competitors. Which is it?
 
Re: The Long View

SirRoxalot said:
One of the real problems with the venture capitalists - and with radio - is that nobody looks at the long term. Everything is oriented toward quick profit, not steady growth. It's the "penny stock model" - buy, wait for a bump, then sell at a profit. Don't worry about operating, or the long term health of the company. Make a quick profit and get out.

You and I are observing the same parade, but from different sides of the street so we see the shadows a bit differently.

The venture capitalists have their OWN problems to contend with. We blame them for gutting retirement plans, for gutting staffing, for ruining careers. Here is the obscene irony. Venture capitalists have the continuing need to borrow money. And one of the biggest sources of capital are the trust funds set for retirement needs of union people and public employees. CAL PERS, the California Personell system has to be the biggest, baddest player on the block. To make sure THEIR patrons have a strong and healthy retirement fund, their managers and consultants are giving the orders to the venture captialists: You've got to GUT your labor costs if we are going to lend you more money. They prosper the future of TEIR workers by gutting OUR jobs and retirement plans. If that means getting rid of unions in YOUR company, DO IT!

And the school teachers retirement funds fall in line right behind CAL PERS. School teacher unions are putting the squeeze on other employers to gut THEIR workers.

SirRoxalot said:
History and experience have been replaced by the spreadsheet. Number crunchers have cobbled together formulas for EVERYTHING, and focused on immediate results. Unfortunately, those spreadsheets don't - and can't - take ALL the factors into account. Data was supposed to HELP make decisions, not be the decision maker. Whether we're talking about shaving hundredths of a cent in the manufacturing process, or selecting music, the spreadsheet numbers don't always add up to a better product, or real savings.

Numbers and those who can crunch numbers can appear to be cruel. Maybe our problem is we haven't used these tools to OUR advantange. The good ingredients: History and experience, can be augmented by the spreadsheet. As I posted recently, after avoiding and detesting the spread sheet earlier in the evolution of the computer, I finally embraced that sucker. The evil bean counters at some distant corporate office appear to be winning the war because we, supposedly the righteous, haven't been counting our beans and grinding them in spread sheets of our own.

My toughest encounter with venture capitalist bean counters was while working as Inside Sales in a centralized call center. The pressures were on to meet certain goals. I built my own spread sheets to show what was a heavy call volume per worker, what was a maximum call volume, and what would bring the entire office to it's knees. A few months ago I finally threw away my notebooks from 12 years ago that were the raw data for my study. Parting with them was akin to a religious experience.

My challenge to those who want good radio: As best you can, become your own bean counter. Become a counter-revolutionary if necessary. What other choice do you have?
 
qman said:

Sorry we woke you up, dude. Take an extra sleeping pill because the Editor just posted a note inviting people to come over here and look at this interesting conversation. There will be more traffic now.

I guess if we were a more polite people, we would have initiated this conversation on the Montana board where it really belongs. ;D
 
Goat Rodeo Cowboy said:
qman said:

Sorry we woke you up, dude. Take an extra sleeping pill because the Editor just posted a note inviting people to come over here and look at this interesting conversation. There will be more traffic now.

Yup. That's how I got here about three hours ago. This topic is near and dear.

Perhaps it's already been said (there's a lot to digest), but in my opinion it all boils down to more of a capital vice rather than a business model. After all, greed is what drives the shareholder thing.

In the opening salvos of this thread someone pointed out that in the eyes of investors growth is imperative to the sale. Indeed. But not just healthy growth that renders viability. They were all determined to get stupid rich and in the process have consumed the industry from the inside out. Much like termites can transform a frame structure into a hulk that eventually collapses on itself.

CEOs & Boards of Directors who thought only of sales ended up bastardising the product and there's no longer anything of substance to exploit! JMO
 
Thank you, cousindave, for the link. I had missed that conversation.

There are times I say: "Self, maybe these boards have become a waste of time. Everything that could be said HAS BEEN SAID." But it hasn't. Reading the boards can get tedious because some participants are like musicians who are One-Hit-Wonders. They have one gripe and/or one solution, and they sing it over and over and over again. And yet threads like this one, after we pass our usual insults around to the participants who "spilled drinks on us the last time we met in a bar"... we sometimes find a new gem.

Here is one that has not been explored while I was standing around watching and listening.

We have a LOT of conversation about the NEW TECHNOLOGY that is grabbing or soon will be grabbing the radio audience and the radio share of ad budgets. You know the usual suspects: Satellite radio. iPods. Streaming.

I see some OLD METHODOLOGY capturing what could be part of radio's rightful kingdom. Direct mail. Yellow pages. Shopper newspapers. I live in this rural vacuum area that may magnify the appearance of some of these advertising vehicles. I live in an area where our local radio stations slid downhill into the Atlanta metro area and left us without local stations that can meet the needs of the local retailiers. That's a nickel and dime piece of the big picture so I don't expect a lot of the radio world to quickly embrace my example.... until they realize I am also talking about big city neighborhoods in some ways also.

The FMs that were on frequencies that couldn't slip down hill into the city because of adjacent channel issues got power increases and to some extent abandoned their home towns, their city of license, to become something like REGIONAL AMs 40 and 50 years ago. They cover maybe 8 county seats and to buy a place at the breakfast table during the morning show, you have to pay an advertising rate approppriate for a market 8 counties big. Car dealers find it very workable. They love it. No more dealing with 10 to 15 radio stations. Two or three covers it all. But what about Suzie's Flower Shop serving ONE county seat. Home town independent druggists. Local operator of a franchised hardware store. The bread and butter of small town radio a number of years ago.

I get yellow pages printed by 5 or 6 different yellow page publishers dumped in my driveway. Some of them more than once a year. Cities and counties are actually discussing outlawing them because people leave them laying, saying I didn't ask for it, I'm not taking it inside. These publishers are gathering up revenue that radio is leaving on the table. Those it is an old format, new printing technology makes it possible for these folks to do this.

Direct mail. I don't totally fit the profile of my neighborhood. I'm low income here compared to the zip code average. It is not unusual to have 10 pieces of customized direct mail in my box in one day. I mean it is personalized and it has MY name on it and when I open it up, my own first name appears on that line that says: "Dear John" or Dear Mary. Some of it does come from Kaiser Permanente, etc. but there is significant spending by LOCAL merchants in that mailbox. I look at it and ask myself: If I were running that store, would I be doing this? Not if there was a radio station doing it's job.

Radio is losing ad budgets to NEW media, and to really OLD media wearing a stylish new dress.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom