How Deep Should A Playlist Go?

[firepoint525]

why must "pretty woman" be played two or three times per day ? if i heard it at 6:30 am..i don't want to hear it at 4:09 that afternoon.

I agree. If I hear a given song on the way to work, it may be stuck in my head all day, and I won't want to hear it again on the way home. Radio programmers might see that as good rotation, separating two airings of any given song by 8-10 hours, but if I'm hearing it twice during the same day, then that might be a bit much for me.

Whatever happened to the "no-repeat workday"? Anyone remember those? You would hear a song once all day, and not hear it again until at least tomorrow. Now they can't possibly promise us a "no-repeat workday" because their playlist is so thin that they are forced to repeat titles. And it's probably even worse on AC stations!

 

[firepoint525]

I'll add a comment about the frequently mentioned "local hits" topic: Americans are highly mobile, and a majority do not live in the place they grew up, so local hits are very often highly destructive as a huge percentage of listeners will hear not a local hit but "a crappy sounding song I never heard before."

Not necessarily. You can go back and look at the WLS charts from the '60s and '70s and you will see that midwestern acts like Styx, REO Speedwagon, and Bob Seger are better represented there than maybe elsewhere, but here in Tennessee, where I live, we might play a little more Charlie Daniels Band, Marshall Tucker Band, and Allman Brothers than might be heard in other parts of the country. But other parts of the country still know who these acts are. When in Rome....

 

[firepoint525]

But where do you draw the line? If a song causes 60% of your listeners to tune out, do you play it for the other 40%? Of course not.

But on the other hand, 4 out of 10 will never hear some of their favorites....that's a significant number in the overall population that attempts to tune in. Just a thought....

Yeah, that's true, too. When I was in school, if I only scored 60% on a test, then I flunked that test.

 

[davideduardo]

I'll add a comment about the frequently mentioned "local hits" topic: Americans are highly mobile, and a majority do not live in the place they grew up, so local hits are very often highly destructive as a huge percentage of listeners will hear not a local hit but "a crappy sounding song I never heard before."

Not necessarily. You can go back and look at the WLS charts from the '60s and '70s and you will see that midwestern acts like Styx, REO Speedwagon, and Bob Seger are better represented there than maybe elsewhere, but here in Tennessee, where I live, we might play a little more Charlie Daniels Band, Marshall Tucker Band, and Allman Brothers than might be heard in other parts of the country. But other parts of the country still know who these acts are. When in Rome....

I fail to see how artists such as you mention, most of whom have had platinum albums, can be considered local hits.

 

[davideduardo]

i'm not angry dave..perplexed that radio has thrown out the 55+ demo as a non audience. i expect within the next 15 to 20 years "our music" will have gone the way of big bands as we die off..so goes the tunes..i just think the way tests are run is a flawed way to do it...now i understand that as a jock we were in an atmosphere where we heard every song every day for 3 to six hours as a rule..thus all of that is committed to memory where the guy on his way to or from work only has say 2 to 3 hours of listening time per day..and thats why stations only format 300-400 songs..but with so many songs available why must "pretty woman" be played two or three times per day ? if i heard it at 6:30 am..i don't want to hear it at 4:09 that afternoon. too many good songs to play instead..let "pretty woman" rotate back within 2-3 weeks..keep that mega list rotating...stations will play only one or two supreme songs..they had many more..the grass roots had more hits that "midnight confessions"...hope i'm making a point here..and i'm not trying to start an argument..but it appears more people on this board agree with my thinking...than yours.......respectfully..chuck lundi

Radio does not "throw out" the 55+ audience. But since the kind of station we are talking about is commercial, if there is no revenue base in large, transactional markets, there is no way to program to that group,

I've seen plenty of cases where the big songs that score highest today on "I'd like to hear it on the radio now" get played less and the lesser scoring songs make up a bigger part of each hour. The results are not nice.

Most of us who program or who have programmed have either made the mistake (and gotten fired or reamed) or seen someone else make the mistake of thinking a deeper list would be seen as "more variety." In either case, the results were uniformly disasterous. I've told several times fairly recent case of working on a classic rock format in a market of 17 million which had 500 cuts in the library... and a 20 share. Another station, using heavy "more variety, more songs" imaging, came one with a list of around 1800 songs. After a full year, they had a 1.8 and we still had a 20 share. Perceptual research showed that the station that had best variety was the one with 500 strong titles, and the one that "played too many songs I don't like" was the one with 1800.

Stations that play songs more than once a day (and given that much of the library even on a gold based station will play that often) in hours where a lot of the same listeners might notice are just not doing the math of programming right and are not setting up their scheduling software right. To do that well takes many days of trial and testing to get the right patterns, and some people just don't take the time; the error is in the way rotations are set up, not in having the right list of songs.

 

[oldies76]

In the oldies / classic hits arena, while there may be several thousand that charted over a given 15 to 20 year span, only about a third are going to be broadly positive today. Some will be novelty songs, some will be dance fad songs, some will just sound dated and some will have charted so low that most listeners barely will have a recollection of the song and have no memories or good feelings attached.

From 1965 through 1985, 11,493 singles charted on the Hot 100 (positions 1-100)...a third would be about 3800 songs in that 20 year time span.

Realistically these days, maybe 5% may get played from that timespan and mainly just top 10 singles. 5% would run about 575 songs. So as you can see, many many songs, even in the top 20, are being left out of today's rotations. I would not expect lower position songs (#21-100) to ever get played again, since these were not as popular in their day.

Just in the Top 20 positions, 3180 songs charted in those 20 years. Add many hundreds more if you go back to the late 50's.

What's being played today, is a drop or two in the bucket.

 

[oldies76]

Whatever happened to the "no-repeat workday"? Anyone remember those?

Didn't KBIG 104 or Star 98.7 in L.A. have that in the 90's?

 

[JbeJay]

From 1965 through 1985 ... Just in the Top 20 positions, 3180 songs charted in those 20 years. .... What's being played today, is a drop or two in the bucket.

Chart position THEN is not the same as "want to hear it again on the radio" NOW.

The latter is important to successful programming of a non-current station. The former is not.

 

[deltas69]

i program from 63 through 93..although 90% of that area actually from 63 through about 85 after that i'm pretty selective as music was not that good..imho still that is a lot of tunes since i have practically every song in that time spam as well as a lot of well played album cuts and covers...my audience is over 50, and grew up listening to the same top 40 that radio played in that time frame..but they are so much more informed as i think most listeners are about music..even surprised me at what they request..roy orbison..yes..but not pretty woman..but crying with k.d. lang..and very very astute on one hit wonders..ie: joe jeffery group, bullet, etc..and as an example joe cocker covers like whiter shade of pale...i don't think this mind set is just limited to my small circle of listeners...my background is just not limited to radio i also played live music in several cover bands as well as dj'd hundreds of parties..and got a really good feel for what an audience wants. the same guy that comes up and requests skynerd's "call me the breeze"..will be back and request "he stopped lovin' her today"..not that i would do that mix on air..lol dance and party gigs are totaly different than a broadcast setting..just trying to illustrate how wide a listner's preference can be..i would really like for those of you who can to tune into my show and judge for your self it's live on friday nights from 6 til midnight cdst...it's not about me but about the music...theres a live chat board if you want to comment..or you can just lurk..i run it as a station vintage spot breaks at 20/40 there is a live "rock cam"...so you can see the catastrophe as it ensues.lol wbesite has the log in link i really would like comments + or - www.chucklundi.com website is in the formation stages so consider that..

 

[oldies76]

Chart position THEN is not the same as "want to hear it again on the radio" NOW.

The latter is important to successful programming of a non-current station. The former is not.

The point is, that no matter how the songs charted in the past (just an example used to get statistics), very few are being played today....too few in my opinion. Why play "Unchained Melody" twice a day, everyday, when in place of the second, play another song that is rarely heard....ie..."Cherry Hill Park". There's nothing wrong with that.

 

[davideduardo]

From 1965 through 1985, 11,493 singles charted on the Hot 100 (positions 1-100)...a third would be about 3800 songs in that 20 year time span.

Few people have memories of songs that charted below about 30th, and even those that peaked in the 20 to 30 range are spotty. The reason is that songs that did not get into the top 20 to 25 did not get enough play to have made much of an impression.

So, we are down to about 2000 songs, give or take (you know my position on charts back then is that of an informed skeptic, anyway).

After you get rid of things that are crossovers that are, by today's standards, too country or too something or another and dispose of the novelty songs and dance fad or hyped movie themes, and then test them, we have 700 to 900 songs that won't alienate most of the listeners.

What's being played today, is a drop or two in the bucket.

What is being played today is what listeners want to hear today.

On a classic hits station (actually, a number of them) I am involved with, we have tested over 6000 songs in the last 10 years... and there are about 900 worth playing in regular rotation today. Some have gone away because they were too old (we played 60s in 2000, but have only a handful today) and some have burnt out (but were marginal before) and some newer things (later 80's and 90's) have been added. It's still amusing to hear the reaction at a music test when a real stiff comes on... people moan and groan and giggle out loud, even if the song was a big hit way back when!

 

[davideduardo]

Whatever happened to the "no-repeat workday"? Anyone remember those?

Didn't KBIG 104 or Star 98.7 in L.A. have that in the 90's?

Yeah, and it really worked for them, didn't it?

 

[flashback]

i have not listened to WFBQ in indianapolis that much lately but when i did listen to it a lot when they said they were going to play a song by a particular artist i could usually tell what the song would be in advance without hearing the title.

i always would have prefered a more vast playlist and that was in the days i was in the desired age group.

it seems narrow minded to change stations like many people do(at least i get that impression from what people say here about it) change the station just because they have not heard the particular song played.or are unwilling to allow a song they don`t care for to finish to continue listening to a station i would hope people would be more open minded.

it`s a shame that people for apparently the most part are so closed minded about expanding their musical listening on the radio.

 

[oldies76]

After you get rid of things that are crossovers that are, by today's standards, too country or too something or another and dispose of the novelty songs and dance fad or hyped movie themes, and then test them, we have 700 to 900 songs that won't alienate most of the listeners.

It would be hard to resist the temptation to play "Elvira" or "Shaddap You Face" or "Double Dutch Bus" or even "Fire Lake".....Some novelties or country crossovers are worth playing.

 

[davideduardo]

It would be hard to resist the temptation to play "Elvira" or "Shaddap You Face" or "Double Dutch Bus" or even "Fire Lake".....Some novelties or country crossovers are worth playing.

Yes, it is of enormous worth and value to your competitors if you play such awful stiffs.

 

[Tom Wells]

The "Great Divide" in what we listen to radio FOR is well illustrated here.

The business is about attracting masses which often don't listen much or closely.
The listeners who pay the most attention are the least served because they are the ones
who don't have on musical blinders or a closed mind.


I love the idea that a closed mind is good for business but bad for music.
It's just so apt.

I don't play Double Dutch Bus on my station, but gosh, there's a great example of something I'd add
right now. Always room for another good song. Regardless of year or genre.

 

[Captainfirst]

My, my, I did start a discusssion, didn't I?

Anyhow, quick update. I'm looking at about 3900 songs total, from 1950-1979.

I'm figuring 300 a week for 13 weeks, so every title gets rotated through four times a year. A good 75%-80% of these are bona fide big hits. The remainder consist of lower charting singles and album tracks by major artists, one-hit wonders and such. There are very few novelty records and similiar items. Once I have all the sets done, I'll put up a basic webpage with the track listings.

 

[hornet61]

Elvira, Double Dutch Bus.........stiffs ?? #1(Country) and #30(pop) respectively....and Joe Dulce still cracks me up today when I hear Ah, Shaddup you Face.

One More Time for Giuseppe, Ah Shaddup You Face.

 

[firepoint525]

I'll add a comment about the frequently mentioned "local hits" topic: Americans are highly mobile, and a majority do not live in the place they grew up, so local hits are very often highly destructive as a huge percentage of listeners will hear not a local hit but "a crappy sounding song I never heard before."

Not necessarily. You can go back and look at the WLS charts from the '60s and '70s and you will see that midwestern acts like Styx, REO Speedwagon, and Bob Seger are better represented there than maybe elsewhere, but here in Tennessee, where I live, we might play a little more Charlie Daniels Band, Marshall Tucker Band, and Allman Brothers than might be heard in other parts of the country. But other parts of the country still know who these acts are. When in Rome....

I fail to see how artists such as you mention, most of whom have had platinum albums, can be considered local hits.

They started out that way.

 

[firepoint525]

it seems narrow minded to change stations like many people do(at least i get that impression from what people say here about it) change the station just because they have not heard the particular song played.or are unwilling to allow a song they don`t care for to finish to continue listening to a station i would hope people would be more open minded.

This is my opinion as well. If your listeners are so damned fickle that they will tune you out for playing just ONE SONG that they didn't like, then maybe you really don't want them as listeners, anyway. They definitely won't stick with you through a commercial break. This may be why I hear mostly national advertisers on radio now. You know, the ones with the 800 number repeated at least three times. Their media buys are so large (bought in bulk) that their cost per station is relatively low. They can afford to buy on media where the listeners are fickle. The local advertisers seem to be on television, in the newspapers (still), and on-line.