How Deep Should A Playlist Go?

[firepoint525]

It would be hard to resist the temptation to play "Elvira" or "Shaddap You Face" or "Double Dutch Bus" or even "Fire Lake".....Some novelties or country crossovers are worth playing.

Elvira, Double Dutch Bus.........stiffs ?? #1(Country) and #30(pop) respectively....and Joe Dulce still cracks me up today when I hear Ah, Shaddup you Face.
One More Time for Giuseppe, Ah Shaddup You Face.

"Elvira" really should never have been played on pop radio anyway. It should have been a strictly country hit. I still remember kids at school bemoaning the playing of "Elvira" over our local stations. They never "tested" us on that one; they just force-fed it to us, anyway! There were far too many watered down country songs being played on pop radio in 1981, and it can't all be chalked up to Urban Cowboy, either. Some of those were actually good songs! And I'm aware that country fans of that day were complaining about their genre's music being too "watered down" and "pop sounding" for their tastes.

"Elvira" still gets airplay over WSM. And that's how it should be.

 

[oldies76]

Yes, it is of enormous worth and value to your competitors if you play such awful stiffs.

Now I wouldn't go that far with Bob Seger. Just a rarely played song. "Against the Wind" and "Old Time Rock and Roll", are played to death compared to "Fire Lake" and others....All of his songs are great though...

I suppose we can save the other crossovers for a weekend special, or an 80's retro feature.

 

[oldies76]

This is my opinion as well. If your listeners are so damned fickle that they will tune you out for playing just ONE SONG that they didn't like, then maybe you really don't want them as listeners, anyway. They definitely won't stick with you through a commercial break. .

That's the point I'm trying to make with David.....Not all listeners will like the tested songs. Remember, just because it tested among a few in an auditorium, does not mean that the "rest of us" will approve. If that "ONE SONG", that "ONE TESTED SONG" tuned out that listener, then to me it proves that tested songs aren't enjoyed by everyone, therefore other songs should be played or added. How many "tested" songs I've heard many times over the years and can say....Can't these stations ever play something different?........Why is it always "Against the Wind" but not "Night Moves" or "Fire Lake"

And yes, 3-5 minute commercial blocks are another turn off.

 

[davideduardo]

That's the point I'm trying to make with David.....Not all listeners will like the tested songs. Remember, just because it tested among a few in an auditorium, does not mean that the "rest of us" will approve.

You have multiple errors of fact here.

1. A music test generally consists of 100 persons in a proportional sample of the people who use / would use a particular format (using multiple artist pods to screen) and who cume our station. In PPM markets, the sample may be 10 times or more as large as the average number of meters detecting our station at any given time. More important, the sample size is big enough to pass a replication study: the same sample size, done over, will yield statistically similar results.

2. The sample, if proportional and properly recruited, will mirror the market as a whole, give or take a couple of percent. And when ranking songs to play, differences of 3 or 4 in a score of 0 to 100 are inconsequential.

If that "ONE SONG", that "ONE TESTED SONG" tuned out that listener, then to me it proves that tested songs aren't enjoyed by everyone, therefore other songs should be played or added. How many "tested" songs I've heard many times over the years and can say....Can't these stations ever play something different?........Why is it always "Against the Wind" but not "Night Moves" or "Fire Lake"

You are in the couple of percent that don't fit the behavior of the universe. You like old songs as much for the "chartist" aspect as for the entertainment value. You hoard old songs in your mind, and most people just listen for a touch of their favorite memories and moments.

Also, you likely don't know if the station you listed to tested, how recently they did it and, even, how well they did it... there are good tests and there are better tests. In today's economy, many stations have postponed or cancelled testing as an AMT for a gold format can run $60,000.

And yes, 3-5 minute commercial blocks are another turn off.

But all commercial stations have the same handicap there... and stopsets tend to be 6 to 8 minutes, twice an hour, not 3 minutes.

 

[davideduardo]

Elvira, Double Dutch Bus.........stiffs ?? #1(Country) and #30(pop) respectively....and Joe Dulce still cracks me up today when I hear Ah, Shaddup you Face.

As I have said, albeit more politely, in the past: the rank of a song 30 years ago is irrelevant today.

Songs are, present tense, hits or stiffs today based on whether most potential listeners want to hear them today or not.

Today, those songs are stiffs.

And most songs that peaked below 25 are not playable today because they really were not hits back in the day... and that is without going into how unreliable the charts were back then.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't play Double Dutch Bus on my station, but gosh, there's a great example of something I'd add right now. Always room for another good song. Regardless of year or genre.

Have you watched "Hoarders" on A&E? You are a music hoarder. Most people aren't.

 

[TheFonz]

This is my opinion as well. If your listeners are so damned fickle that they will tune you out for playing just ONE SONG that they didn't like, then maybe you really don't want them as listeners, anyway. They definitely won't stick with you through a commercial break. .

That's the point I'm trying to make with David.....Not all listeners will like the tested songs. Remember, just because it tested among a few in an auditorium, does not mean that the "rest of us" will approve. If that "ONE SONG", that "ONE TESTED SONG" tuned out that listener, then to me it proves that tested songs aren't enjoyed by everyone, therefore other songs should be played or added. How many "tested" songs I've heard many times over the years and can say....Can't these stations ever play something different?........Why is it always "Against the Wind" but not "Night Moves" or "Fire Lake"

And yes, 3-5 minute commercial blocks are another turn off.

We had all of these discussions on the '50s/'60s board 10 years ago. Now, of course, they've moved to the '60s/'70s board. The answer for me 10 years ago was to dump commercial music radio. I found that here are a whole lot of great options out there. I'm guessing that the same conclusion will be reached this time around.

 

[oldies76]

I don't play Double Dutch Bus on my station, but gosh, there's a great example of something I'd add right now. Always room for another good song. Regardless of year or genre.

Have you watched "Hoarders" on A&E? You are a music hoarder. Most people aren't.

It has nothing to do with being a hoarder...it's called, providing a great and full selection of songs from the PAST, to be played on a classic hits format today. If someone that was alive in 1981, requested that song and heard it on your station, they would most likely remain part of your audience over the longer term. Not providing a song, especially in the era it plays and proclaims...ie.. (The hits of the 70's and 80's...) is not kosher with what radio is all about.

Classic hits radio should not be a repetitive museum...the same paintings by Van Gogh displayed everywhere you go. Offer something new and entertaining and you'll get new visitors or in radio's case...new listeners.

 

[LibertyNT]

Before I did a big playlist revamp,
I had about 1,100 songs in continuous rotation.
After the shake up ( I removed the soft 50's songs from heavy rotation)
It settled to about a rather small 550 songs.
But It still takes a day or two before you get a repeat.
The 50's are still there, but run at set times. (4 times an hour)
Im constantly adding more oldies;
Usually from records if I can find them.

It's not as big as the other guys here, but, Id consider the playlist to be deeper than the locals, and not limited to just Top 10 hits.
Unfortunately I have no jingles or classic commercials,
But I have fun with it, and play some darned good Rock & Roll.

 

[firepoint525]

And yes, 3-5 minute commercial blocks are another turn off.

But all commercial stations have the same handicap there... and stopsets tend to be 6 to 8 minutes, twice an hour, not 3 minutes.

Yikes, six to eight minutes? No wonder I tune out during commercial breaks! That's long enough to hear a song in its entirety on a competing station!

Cumulus radio recently held an open house here in Nashville recruiting new account executives. Since then, I have noticed that they still play only those national (1-800...) ads, and nothing local, except for maybe their own promos. If they hadn't had that open house, I might not have even focused on what types of ads that they air.

 

[firepoint525]

Whatever happened to the "no-repeat workday"? Anyone remember those?

Didn't KBIG 104 or Star 98.7 in L.A. have that in the 90's?

Yeah, and it really worked for them, didn't it?

Have to admit that I am not familiar with those stations due to not living in L.A., but the reason why most stations stopped offering "no-repeat" workdays is because they shrunk their playlist to the point that they no longer could.

The last time I heard a really good "A to Z" playlist, played all the way through in alphabetical order, was, I think, 1993 or so. Too risky for stations to try something like that now.

 

[firepoint525]

Yes, it is of enormous worth and value to your competitors if you play such awful stiffs.

Now I wouldn't go that far with Bob Seger. Just a rarely played song. "Against the Wind" and "Old Time Rock and Roll", are played to death compared to "Fire Lake" and others....All of his songs are great though...
I suppose we can save the other crossovers for a weekend special, or an 80's retro feature.

Interesting points about Seger. In the case of Against the Wind (the album), it may be that they chose the wrong songs from that album to release as singles, or at least didn't choose all the right ones. "Fire Lake" hit #6, and "Against the Wind" made it to #5, but I still hear "Her Strut" quite regularly on classic rock stations. It was a single, but only the b-side of "Horizontal Bop," which was indeed a stiff. I still see that 45 listed on E-bay with the sides reversed, with "Her Strut" listed as the A-side, and "Horizontal Bop" as the flipside, but I'm assuming that that is because the seller didn't know that "Bop" was the A-side, or thinks that it will be more likely to sell, if "Strut" is listed as the A-side.

 

[firepoint525]

We had all of these discussions on the '50s/'60s board 10 years ago. Now, of course, they've moved to the '60s/'70s board. The answer for me 10 years ago was to dump commercial music radio. I found that here are a whole lot of great options out there. I'm guessing that the same conclusion will be reached this time around.

If I were programming an "oldies" or "classic hits" station nowadays, I would probably drop most everything from prior to the British invasion, not necessarily because it was bad music, but because it is getting too old. The problem is that the 1960-63 time period, while it provided some great music, it also gave us groaners like "Dominique" and "My Boyfriend's Back." I'm probably stepping on some toes here, especially with that latter one, but I heard "My Boyfriend's Back" just the other day (on an AM station!), and I just thought, "I am so glad that I didn't live through that time frame!" The "hey, la, hey, la, my boyfriend's back," was just too much to take. My first thought was, who is "La"? Now before anyone hits back, I know that my own generation has provided its own share of groaners, like "One Night in Bangkok" and "I Wanna Be a Cowboy," so don't go there.

I saw the Time-Life informercial of "Malt Shop Memories," and I thought that they captured the 1955-1963 time period quite nicely. "Stand By Me" and "Runaway," I think, are on that one. But I prefer more than one hit per artist, so I have, for instance, a Bobby Darin CD.

 

[firepoint525]

Wanna talk stiffs? My favorite station played this groaner on St. Patrick's Day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPsuOEH1fY

Fortunately, for them, I still like this station!

 

[oldies76]

The last time I heard a really good "A to Z" playlist, played all the way through in alphabetical order, was, I think, 1993 or so. Too risky for stations to try something like that now.

WCBS 101 in NYC does them every year. In 2010, I believe they did it backwards, Z to A over 4 or 5 days.

 

[Tom Wells]

I don't play Double Dutch Bus on my station, but gosh, there's a great example of something I'd add right now. Always room for another good song. Regardless of year or genre.

Have you watched "Hoarders" on A&E? You are a music hoarder. Most people aren't.

TV ???
Haven't got time to turn on the TV.

Every radio station I have ever loved has been a music hoarder!
WZRD, WLCL, WVVX, WSM, WHFS, WEVL. WBAP, WNUR come immediately to mind.

I'm quite sure WFMU is PROUD to be a record hoarder.

If no one hoarded the records, they wouldn't BE any to SHARE with the listeners.

My entire life I have been interested in many kinds of music, and never satisfied with
limiting my perspectives.


Which from the music perspective, is what it's all about.

Quite apart from the "business" perspective, isn't it?

 

[Tom Wells]

Wanna talk stiffs? My favorite station played this groaner on St. Patrick's Day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPsuOEH1fY

Fortunately, for them, I still like this station!

Ahh turn ovah the 45, man and play Black Velvet Band for the most osbcure of ye old stiffs.

 

[hornet61]

I don't play Double Dutch Bus on my station, but gosh, there's a great example of something I'd add right now. Always room for another good song. Regardless of year or genre.

Have you watched "Hoarders" on A&E? You are a music hoarder. Most people aren't.

TV ???
Haven't got time to turn on the TV.

Every radio station I have ever loved has been a music hoarder!
WZRD, WLCL, WVVX, WSM, WHFS, WEVL. WBAP, WNUR come immediately to mind.

I'm quite sure WFMU is PROUD to be a record hoarder.

If no one hoarded the records, they wouldn't BE any to SHARE with the listeners.

My entire life I have been interested in many kinds of music, and never satisfied with
limiting my perspectives.


Which from the music perspective, is what it's all about.

Quite apart from the "business" perspective, isn't it?

Amen and halleluyah from a fellow hoarder..

Wanna talk stiffs? My favorite station played this groaner on St. Patrick's Day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EPsuOEH1fY

Fortunately, for them, I still like this station!

Ahh turn ovah the 45, man and play Black Velvet Band for the most osbcure of ye old stiffs.

I prefer the term Rare over Obscure...It's only obscure to the one who does not know the song, and there are many on this site who know tons of songs, yourself included. And stiff is a term I despise even more , because it used too much by the same people who use the term Obscure, get my drift....obscure plus stiff = limited knowledge.

 

[davideduardo]

Every radio station I have ever loved has been a music hoarder!
WZRD, WLCL, WVVX, WSM, WHFS, WEVL. WBAP, WNUR come immediately to mind.

And then you later said,

Quite apart from the "business" perspective, isn't it?

That's the undercurrent of this discussion.

It's fine, even commendable, when a person takes the effort to create a web station that represents that person's personal vision of what a good mix of good songs should be. And in many cases, since a stream is available nearly anywhere, the amalgamated group of listeners, even is just one or two per town or area, is significant.

We can't change the way terrestrial stations program, as the systems have been challenged and proven over time. Things like viable playlist size, era and feel will continue to be revised by listener input in the future, but radio stations will have to be focused on broad consensus, not sharply targeted niches.

Niches are for the internet. And, well done, they can be more acceptable than Pandora and other pure play sources that a user self-configures because they may offer a better flow, variety and feel than what can be configured by a computer algorithm.

Similarly, broadcast radio provides an opportunity to have someone else do the work of programming and it introduces elements that the individual might not have selected. It's easy and useful, and will be more so as stations become available on other kinds of appliances.

The difference is exactly what you say... a business perspective or a lover of the music perspective.

 

[Silkie]

Maybe it depends upon the objectives of those who prepare the music. When you hear something that is a new play, but was a hit record, you know that you have the same old crap, going round and round in circles, but using a great record to try to accomplish something nobody will recognize. Never works, the ratings don't change, the pit just gets a little bit deeper at the little home base as it were.