How Deep Should A Playlist Go?

[oldies76]

In today's economy, many stations have postponed or cancelled testing as an AMT for a gold format can run $60,000.

For big market stations like KRTH, WCBS or even small AM's like 950 Denver, what does it take these days to perform a music test. If it really took that much money to just determine what songs to air, really what's the advantage of pouring up to $60K and at what frequency, just to perform these tests.

For the stations that do not perform tests, how is it determined what songs to play? This might be advantageous to the smaller stations...probably why I hear a much bigger selection of songs on AM's, such as 950.

 

[LibertyNT]

I'd imagine the best way to know what to play,
is to get the folks who actually played it back then.
They knew what did and didn't work.

 

[oldies76]

I'd imagine the best way to know what to play,
is to get the folks who actually played it back then.
They knew what did and didn't work.

A very intersting point made...

KRTH in the 70's and early 80's is a great example! Boss Radio too.

 

[davideduardo]

They knew what did and didn't work.

Not really. Feedback of a reliable nature was almost non-existent. Some of us tracked record sales and jukebox plays, but that data did not tell you what your audience and demos were buying and spinning.

Record sales data was ancient history before it was published in Cash Box and Billboard (charts were compiled by hand from information that was a week old when it was mailed in). Record companies dropped product in exchange for retail reports.

And request line phones were dominated by groupies and fan club members trying to get their pet artist played.

 

[davideduardo]

For big market stations like KRTH, WCBS or even small AM's like 950 Denver, what does it take these days to perform a music test. If it really took that much money to just determine what songs to air, really what's the advantage of pouring up to $60K and at what frequency, just to perform these tests.

I thoroughly doubt that the Denver station tests. It has such limited potential that it likely uses the guidance of a programmer familiar with the music.

But to stations like CBS-FM and KRTH which bill $30,000,000 a year, doing two, three or four tests a year is not out of the question. Also, companies like CBS will share data among various classic hits facilities like those above and KOOL and WOGL so that "what if" songs that are surprisingly good or terribly bad can be looked at everywhere.

Smaller markets will not be able to do testing as often, but they may also take guidance from comparable stations in similar markets via MedaBase or BDS and they will also look at M Scores on MediaMonitors to see the audience movement each time a song is played.

For the stations that do not perform tests, how is it determined what songs to play? This might be advantageous to the smaller stations...probably why I hear a much bigger selection of songs on AM's, such as 950.

The bight ones will average the lists of multiple other stations in larger markets that can afford to test. The dumb ones will figure that they should play everything, and will be out of a job quickly. Or the station will change format.

 

[hornet61]

KRTH 101...

101 songs in the library

101m they should be billing a year, you're in LA with no Competition.

101 Legendary DJ's that made that station, not the playlist.

101 other stations I try when in LA.

101 other songs beside the 101 in the Library, that they test 3 times a year.

101 people out of 10,000 million (includes my people:Los Illegales) population that they test three times a year,

101 of 102 of people surveyed think KRTH sucks.,because my people listen to Art Laboe

101 more examples I have, but am getting sleepy and have to go to bed.

I am listening to Chuck Lundi as I write, Chuck just signed off, another great show ........hey Chuck who is the guy in the red hooded jacket with sunglasses Hangin out(no pun intended) with you tonight, is his name Paul......5,4,3,2...

 

[oldies76]

101 of 102 of people surveyed think KRTH sucks.,because my people listen to Art Laboe

Their unfortunate track record of excessive repetition and a super-tight playlist throughout the
90's until 2005, left a rough impression upon many in L.A.

Jhani Kaye has improved KRTH since '05 but still lacks the depth of what a true classic hits station should offer.

 

[deltas69]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/chuck-lundi-s-rock-box look just go here..cl 1 is 6pm til 9pm cl 2 is 9pm til midnight...don't pay that much attention to me..listen to the music..tell me if it's worth a crap..recorded live tonight..Aprils Fools Day..probably prophetic..lol i didn't test any friggin body to do this.....

 

[firepoint525]

Personally, I believe that radio stations should keep their highly tested songs in rotation in their music library, but they should also keep those other, lesser-known, supposedly "forgotten" songs available in their music library as well, to play whenever someone calls in and requests those songs. Obviously, if someone is requesting them, then they aren't exactly "forgotten," now are they? The only problem is that radio has conditioned listeners not to expect them to be able to play requests, either because the station is automated (voice-tracked), or it is programmed from another studio several hundred miles away. With the example I gave earlier of the Irish Rovers song, the station that I was listening to is in Columbia, Tennessee, about an hour south of Nashville, but they take a satellite feed from Dallas.

Delta, were you in any way involved with the programming of the SM-95 Live 365 station? That was a cool station, but it was my understanding that it had to be turned off because of issues involving royalty payments. :'(

 

[deltas69]

who is the guy in the red hooded jacket with sunglasses you have to be a fan of the USA network to get this because it's a stretch...he is a detective from another planet who has a obsessive compulsive disorder...ready ??? Alien Monk ;D

 

[deltas69]

Delta, were you in any way involved with the programming of the SM-95 Live 365 station? No sir..I'm just an old guy sitting here in my underwear playing ALL the hits..and near misses ..but I bet I could program a station if I had too...did it before in another life Thanks for listening and for others who may be curious, the shows are archived each week for reference...C.L.

 

[davideduardo]

101 songs in the library

Very amusing post, but....

KRTH has about as many titles in regular rotation as highly complimented CBS-FM in New York. It has a typical library size for the format.

101m they should be billing a year, you're in LA with no Competition.

They are 15th in the market in 18-49, yet they are 10th in billings. They are overachieving. Nobody bills $100 million in a market where only about $700 million are available to all stations.

101 Legendary DJ's that made that station, not the playlist.

The jocks created the atmosphere for the music and the kind of people who listened to oldies or listen to classic hits. Nobody would have listened just for the jocks, no matter how good. But they would have listened to the music, even without jocks, although perhaps for less time.

101 other stations I try when in LA.

There are only around 87 stations licensed in the entire metro; in any particular location, there are at most 45 to 50 that can be heard at a listenable, noise free level. And, of those, 15 or 20 will be mostly talk or foreign language AMs.

101 other songs beside the 101 in the Library, that they test 3 times a year.

The classic hits tests I have witnessed included 1200 to 1300 songs in a two-evening session and they included lots and lots of songs that were not currently in play, but were being considered for their potential.

101 people out of 10,000 million (includes my people:Los Illegales) population that they test three times a year,

Actually, the target for testing for KRTH would be persons 35-54, the core audience, bringing the universe down to 3.8 million.

It is also more than likely that they would want to talk only to people who listened at least an hour a week to the station (proof that they might actually know the music) which brings it down to 289,000 persons. If the criteria was listening 40 minutes a day, then the core is 107,000 persons.

A sample of 100, perhaps divided half 35-44 and half 45.54, 50% men and 50% women, and 60% Hispanic 0% African American and 40% non-Hispanic white would adequately represent all the core ages, genders and ethnicities with an adequate sample for analysis; such a sample will replicate so no more respondents are needed.

Total cost: plus or minus $75,000 in LA.

101 of 102 of people surveyed think KRTH sucks.,because my people listen to Art Laboe

You can't compare a specialty show with a format, anyway. And KRTH on average has more listeners than the Laboe show... and that is without considering that each appeals to a different lifestyle and music preference group. I don't think that the Laboe listener would get much of a thrill from Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys.

101 more examples I have, but am getting sleepy and have to go to bed.

Or, perhaps you could not come up with any further, albeit humorous, mistruths, exaggerations or lies. And please, please, stay away from commenting on sample sizes and population statistics, as you embarrass yourself the most in those areas.

 

[davideduardo]

Their unfortunate track record of excessive repetition and a super-tight playlist throughout the
90's until 2005, left a rough impression upon many in L.A.

The listeners in the 90's are, in their majority, over 55 now. First, that is just a statistical fact, and second, the songs played back then were mostly 60's stuff where the average fan would be over 60 today.

So, even if they played a two-song playlist in 1994, that is neither remembered nor relevant to the listeners they seek today.

And listeners don't really care what you did in the past. They care what you are doing now, and what you will be playing tomorrow.

 

[hornet61]

101 songs in the library

Very amusing post, but....

KRTH has about as many titles in regular rotation as highly complimented CBS-FM in New York. It has a typical library size for the format.

101m they should be billing a year, you're in LA with no Competition.

They are 15th in the market in 18-49, yet they are 10th in billings. They are overachieving. Nobody bills $100 million in a market where only about $700 million are available to all stations.

101 Legendary DJ's that made that station, not the playlist.

The jocks created the atmosphere for the music and the kind of people who listened to oldies or listen to classic hits. Nobody would have listened just for the jocks, no matter how good. But they would have listened to the music, even without jocks, although perhaps for less time.

101 other stations I try when in LA.

There are only around 87 stations licensed in the entire metro; in any particular location, there are at most 45 to 50 that can be heard at a listenable, noise free level. And, of those, 15 or 20 will be mostly talk or foreign language AMs.

101 other songs beside the 101 in the Library, that they test 3 times a year.

The classic hits tests I have witnessed included 1200 to 1300 songs in a two-evening session and they included lots and lots of songs that were not currently in play, but were being considered for their potential.

101 people out of 10,000 million (includes my people:Los Illegales) population that they test three times a year,

Actually, the target for testing for KRTH would be persons 35-54, the core audience, bringing the universe down to 3.8 million.

It is also more than likely that they would want to talk only to people who listened at least an hour a week to the station (proof that they might actually know the music) which brings it down to 289,000 persons. If the criteria was listening 40 minutes a day, then the core is 107,000 persons.

A sample of 100, perhaps divided half 35-44 and half 45.54, 50% men and 50% women, and 60% Hispanic 0% African American and 40% non-Hispanic white would adequately represent all the core ages, genders and ethnicities with an adequate sample for analysis; such a sample will replicate so no more respondents are needed.

Total cost: plus or minus $75,000 in LA.

101 of 102 of people surveyed think KRTH sucks.,because my people listen to Art Laboe

You can't compare a specialty show with a format, anyway. And KRTH on average has more listeners than the Laboe show... and that is without considering that each appeals to a different lifestyle and music preference group. I don't think that the Laboe listener would get much of a thrill from Jan & Dean and The Beach Boys.

101 more examples I have, but am getting sleepy and have to go to bed.

Or, perhaps you could not come up with any further, albeit humorous, mistruths, exaggerations or lies. And please, please, stay away from commenting on sample sizes and population statistics, as you embarrass yourself the most in those areas.

This was a totally facetious post I submitted, explain to we third graders, why you felt compelled to respond. Who is the embarassment here??

 

[oldies76]

KRTH has about as many titles in regular rotation as highly complimented CBS-FM in New York. It has a typical library size for the format.

When I refer to total songs played on one station, it's all the songs available to play in one's library. If you look at a listing of all songs played during the week (all hours and days) and compare KRTH with WCBS, it's hands down for CBS-FM. Remember they STILL play some late 50's (not just KRTH's staples, Tequilla and La Bamba). Many 60's are played, especially late 60's. And of course, the 70's and 80's are well represented on CBS-FM. Just look at the titles and compare.

It's a no-brainer, CBS-FM has KRTH beat in selection, presentation and number of playable songs per week. And yes, I am including specialties, because those songs are hardly, if ever played on KRTH. No wonder CBS-FM is highly complimented.

If you check the Media Base listings for a week's worth of songs, including specials and overnights, you will see that CBS-FM clearly has the advantage over KRTH in selection.

 

[davideduardo]

When I refer to total songs played on one station, it's all the songs available to play in one's library. If you look at a listing of all songs played during the week (all hours and days) and compare KRTH with WCBS, it's hands down for CBS-FM.

As I have said plenty of previous times, if you look at 6 AM to 7 PM only, or even 6 AM to Mid, M-F, and exclude the specialty show blind alleys of the weekend, the title counts are ecstatically similar.

CBS-FM has some special and very New York reasons to put a lot of things going back to do-wop in those shows that play in dayparts where there is a PUR with a zero before the decimal point. But in dayparts and times when there is both listening to radio and to that station, they don't commit sock-hop sepuku and fall on a sword of broken record shards.

It's a no-brainer, CBS-FM has KRTH beat in selection, presentation and number of playable songs per week. And yes, I am including specialties, because those songs are hardly, if ever played on KRTH. No wonder CBS-FM is highly complimented.

Yet KRTH reaches 22% of 12+ persons in its market (and 23% of the only thing that matters, 25-54) while WCBS-FM does a bet less on each of the metrics.

You are not taking into account that LA is about 41% Hispanic and KRTH's audience is more than half Hispanic, overindexing in the area where the market is growing. CBS-FM gets only 15% of listening from Hispanics in a market that is 20% Hispanic, underindexing in the growth area of that market.

The main point to be made with this analysis is that KRTH is actually doing a better job in reaching potential listeners, and is better prepared for the upcoming years, particularly as Arbitron will soon fold the 2010 Census figures on ethnicity into the ratings (October of this year) and the new demo breaks (2012). Likely that will make KRTH look even better.

If you check the Media Base listings for a week's worth of songs, including specials and overnights, you will see that CBS-FM clearly has the advantage over KRTH in selection.

It does not have that advantage in sales demos, reach and future potential.

 

[davideduardo]

This was a totally facetious post I submitted, explain to we third graders, why you felt compelled to respond. Who is the embarassment here??

What part of "Very amusing post" do you need an explanation of?

Your post, understandable amusing, to a slight extent, to insiders, can only befuddle and bewilder the casual lurker. Thus the clarification.

 

[johnsummers]

I've read countless threads on Radio-Info on a variation of this subject. I've always said something like; "...well folks, as an oldies lover, my heart is with you, but the huge playlist thing just doesn't work as well as playing the hits! Never has, never will". This is something that took me a very long time to internalize as a radio professional. I had to realize that what I thought was the ideal and sounded great, didn't sound great to enough people. That's difficult to take, like somebody telling you that your baby's ugly. Whenever the big playlist thing is tried (and, it has been) in a competitive situation, it almost always fails. We pretty much know what the hits are. There is no substitute for playing the hits. DAVIDEDUARDO is almost always right on when he speaks of these things. I also give him props for finding the facts and figures with which to support his words.

 

[Tom Wells]

Further considerations.... It seems OK when sports talk guys "hoard facts and figures."
It seems OK for talking heads to go on and on and on," hoarding thoughts...."

Or should they just shut up most of the time., and only play the "hits", excerpts, the "best of" moments?

How would that happen? Well, someone would do what they do now at the radio station, but then there would be
an editor who would clip out the words deemed to pass muster, and these would be inserted into running stream
of sudio specioally prepared and assembled to be of uniform worth to TSL.

But no, talking can just go on forever, with endless iteration and that's OK?

These are often just off-the-cuff, stream-of-consciousness words.
Just like the songs that never charted above 30.


Some people have websites with immense amounts of data about obscure info that
very few people care about. This is wonderful because there are those who DO care about the info.

I wouldn't classify this as hoarding.
My first volunteer job was in a historical museum as a curator, and I have never given up that role.

It's not hoarding, it's SHARING, when someone preserves something and/or makes it accessible to others.

Now, when someone only has a small collection, it doesn't make for much in-depth study.
A fine glossing over on any subject is a "snack".

That's all business wants to offer up, a snack.
Actual meal preparation requires more ingredients, fresher and/or more exotic ingredients.

When cheapness is the most important thing that matters, the product will eventually accquire
a sheen of cheapness. You can't be watching the looking for the cleverness if you're
primarily watching the cheap meter.
Eventually you still have a product, but cheapness becomes the first impression.

If an Oldies station only plays the offically sanctioned top xxx songs, they're really not worth my time at all.
I'd just as soon pull out a ream of blue-ruled 8.5 x 11 paper and examine the sheets for minor differences
in the spacing of the lines. It's like a person having only ONE item of interest and never expanding their perspective.
It's just plain unnatural for a human with normal capacity for increase in data,
to listen to a small, and increasingly smaller set of music.

Seems to me more like a fixation disorder, to be so superstitiously intolerant of variance from
a highly defined ordering of "presented reality".

 

[oldies76]

If an Oldies station only plays the offically sanctioned top xxx songs, they're really not worth my time at all.

Agreed.....ever wonder how most of the major classic hits stations around the country have very similiar lineups, with little variation?? Gotta wonder, huh...

How can people who enjoy older songs really put up with that nonsense.

Thankfully CBS-FM and several AM's provide some relief to the monotony of these "sanctioned", overplayed to death songs. I do not have to hear "What I Like About You" 18 times a month...once or twice a year is fine with me.

Speaking of that Romantics song, where was that song back in 1980 when it was released? I guess there's a good reason why it only reached #49...never heard it on the radio then.