How far do your local AM's go during the day?

[Schroedingers Cat]

I know that WIND has a better signal in Park Ridge than WLS. From the previous site, WTAQ/WRDZ with 5 kW on 1300, and WGRT/WNTD from the day site had signals about equal to WLS there. It used to be important from the 1930s to 1950s for WLS to reach downstate Illinois and rural areas further south better. Even in the 1960s and 1970s, before FM took over, and stations like WVON on 1450 and even 1390 had bad signals especially at night, and WGRT signed off, WLS was the station of choice on the South Side. But with the present syndicated talk format, that has little appeal to downstate and rural areas carrying the same format locally, and doesn't appeal to the former listeners in the City of Chicago. But now the first adjacent overlap rules are more stringent, not less. I doubt that they would go directional days to move further north, but that's probably what they would have to do, or they would have moved years ago. It would be really weird for a clear channel station to be 50 kw U, DA-D (U5). They would probably have to even be directional night due to the ratchet clause, or operate from the present site at night.

 

[davideduardo]

I want to make another inquiry as to whether anyone out there has a copy of a really old AM database, and any other source of directional antenna information from the 1940s and 1950s especially.

If you run across any of this stuff in hard copy form, and would like to share, I'd be pleased to open a page for engineering data of this kind on the site I maintain. Since the old RCA Broadcast News issues are nearly as visited as Broadcasting Magazine, there is obviously interest in the technical side. I can scan up to 11 x 17 sheets and the same for bound volumes, and can send the originals back quite quickly.

 

[schmave]

... if you're driving in the Milwaukee area WLS has the noisiest signal of all the 50KW Chicago stations except WYLL.

Here is what Doug Vernier's V-Soft web app says for the fields of the stations shown, at the intersection of I-94 with I-894 on the west side of Milwaukee:

WGN 7.8 mV/m
WSCR 7.3
WBBM 6.4
WLS 1.5
WYLL 1.2

Presumably these calculations are referenced to the M3 chart, which shows mostly 15 mS/m paths for WGN, WSCR and WBBM.

WLS has a stretch of 8 mS/m conductivity close to their transmit site on their path, then turning to 15 mS/m. The path of WLS to this location in Milwaukee is also about 31 miles further than from WGN, WSCR and WBBM.

This together with the higher frequency for WLS accounts for the difference, probably.

That echoes my experience from vacation in Milwaukee a couple weeks ago. My buddies and I listened to the Score and WGN more than any Milwaukee station, and they both sounded fine even at night up there. There were a few spots in downtown Milwaukee where there was a little cancellation on WGN, but once you got away from the buildings it came in just fine.

 

[radioman148]

WLS tried to move to Grace and Fullerton back in the 1970s for that very reason. A Wisconsin station on 900 stopped them from moving due to disputed overlap. That would be a good application to try to find and look at. WMVP has used the WLS tower recently for STAs and there have been a lot of signal complaints.

I had never heard that. What was/is at the corner of Grace & Fullerton? Do you have any records showing this proposed move? I'd like to see them.

 

[radioman148]

I know that WIND has a better signal in Park Ridge than WLS. From the previous site, WTAQ/WRDZ with 5 kW on 1300, and WGRT/WNTD from the day site had signals about equal to WLS there. It used to be important from the 1930s to 1950s for WLS to reach downstate Illinois and rural areas further south better. Even in the 1960s and 1970s, before FM took over, and stations like WVON on 1450 and even 1390 had bad signals especially at night, and WGRT signed off, WLS was the station of choice on the South Side. But with the present syndicated talk format, that has little appeal to downstate and rural areas carrying the same format locally, and doesn't appeal to the former listeners in the City of Chicago. But now the first adjacent overlap rules are more stringent, not less. I doubt that they would go directional days to move further north, but that's probably what they would have to do, or they would have moved years ago. It would be really weird for a clear channel station to be 50 kw U, DA-D (U5). They would probably have to even be directional night due to the ratchet clause, or operate from the present site at night.

I had heard that the WLS transmitter was installed in Tinley Park because of a tax argument with Cook county back in the 30s.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I had to put "Grace and Fullerton" into Google Maps to remember the town. It was Addison, IL. It was in Broadcasting. I don't know if you could find it on David's site. I don't know if a search would show it.

 

[charlestondxman]

Well, interesting discussion in what we've seen. However, local AMs was the main part. Talking about clear channels, some of the worst daytime signals are WSB and WBT.

WBT is weakly audible around the Charleston area, and WSB is unlistenable. WSB's signal is noisy in Athens, only about 60-70 miles from the transmitter. East of the Savannah River, WSB is a tough get except in the closest parts of SC to metro Atlanta like Fair Play. WBT is very listenable in Columbia, but not strong. It sounds like the Chicago clears sound in Champaign or a little farther south.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

radioman148, if you know of any oldtimer engineers at WLS, or perhaps another local station, they might remember. Seems like it was in the early to mid 1970s. They did groundwave testing from the site on 1200 kHz, which was vacant at the time.

 

[jd]

Some info on that (from one of their engineers) can be found at the WLS history site. Do a search on the page for "Addison" and it comes right up: www.wlshistory.com/whatsnew/

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

While this is pretty far afield from the original topic, WLS needs an FM simulcast a lot more than WBBM did, but I don't think they should sacrifice 94.7. Citadel or Cumulus needs to buy another group, but I can't imagine what group they would buy and who would sell. 106.7 would be a good supplement for the part of the market with the worst signal, but I doubt they would sell. It's also not good in the central business district.

 

[radioman148]

I had to put "Grace and Fullerton" into Google Maps to remember the town. It was Addison, IL. It was in Broadcasting. I don't know if you could find it on David's site. I don't know if a search would show it.

OK, Addison makes sense. There is a Grace street in Chicago and I couldn't comprehend putting WLS' tower there.

 

[radioman148]

Well, interesting discussion in what we've seen. However, local AMs was the main part. Talking about clear channels, some of the worst daytime signals are WSB and WBT.

WBT is weakly audible around the Charleston area, and WSB is unlistenable. WSB's signal is noisy in Athens, only about 60-70 miles from the transmitter. East of the Savannah River, WSB is a tough get except in the closest parts of SC to metro Atlanta like Fair Play. WBT is very listenable in Columbia, but not strong. It sounds like the Chicago clears sound in Champaign or a little farther south.

Hearing all the horror stories about bad ground in the south makes one realize how lucky we are to have good conditions here in the midwest.

 

[radioman148]

radioman148, if you know of any oldtimer engineers at WLS, or perhaps another local station, they might remember. Seems like it was in the early to mid 1970s. They did groundwave testing from the site on 1200 kHz, which was vacant at the time.

I did know an engineer at WLS from that era, but sadly he's no longer around.

 

[radioman148]

Some info on that (from one of their engineers) can be found at the WLS history site. Do a search on the page for "Addison" and it comes right up: www.wlshistory.com/whatsnew/

Thanks--I found it!

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I think I may have talked to Charlie Gustafson about this once, but sadly, he's gone too. But I think he'd left Chicago for Western Michigan by that time. He was at WTAQ, WCFL, and WIND over the years.

 

[radioman148]

I think I may have talked to Charlie Gustafson about this once, but sadly, he's gone too. But I think he'd left Chicago for Western Michigan by that time. He was at WTAQ, WCFL, and WIND over the years.

I knew Dale Shimp. He was an engineer at WLS from 1944 through the mid 80s. Sadly he left us a few years ago.

 

[KE4KLS_Radio]

Some of coastal FL stations can go up the coast hundreds of miles during the day. I have heard WSBB 1230 from New Smyrna Beach as far north as Ocean Isle Beach, NC due to the saltwater path...

 

[charlestondxman]

Yep, WSBB is very audible around Charleston. The water path helps it. In the Charleston area, it comes in stronger than the much closer Savannah station because of it.

When 1340 in Charleston got hit by lightning about 7 or 8 years ago and was off for a week, 1340 Daytona Beach (WROD) came in very well around the area.

 

[Buckeyes2001]

I tried this with WLEC 1450/Sandusky, OH travelled to akron and could still faintly hear WLEC mixing with a faint WJER/dover new philly. The signal was listenable on the Ohio turnpike almost to I-77 after which it came and went and came back fairly good on I-77 around the I-271 interchange. I can also hear it east of downtown Cleveland as long as I'm not next to a building or poorly shielded power lines.

 

[317C50KW]

On a visit to Charleston/Savannah last fall I was very impressed by the signal the the 690 in Jacksonville FL put into both cities, particularly Charleston.
No doubt that salt water path works very well.