• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

HOW FAR SHOULD HD-FM WORK?

How far should I be able to receive my HD-FM station in my car? I'm getting my HD station flipping back and forth between analog and digital - roughly 25% analog, 75% digital - with these specs:

Class B1 station with non-directional 7KW ERP at 397 Feet HAAT. New antenna, new tower and new transmitter in December 2006.
I'm in the 60dBu coverage area, 21.3 miles by car, or less than 20 air miles from the transmitter, yet it switches quite often, especially noticable when the analog/digital delays get off by a mere fraction of a second.

Shouldn't I have a continuous HD lock within the local 60dBu contour, less than 20 miles as the crow flies - or is only the 50KW FM station going to do that?
 
JohnnyElectron said:
How far should I be able to receive my HD-FM station in my car? I'm getting my HD station flipping back and forth between analog and digital - roughly 25% analog, 75% digital - with these specs:

Class B1 station with non-directional 7KW ERP at 397 Feet HAAT. New antenna, new tower and new transmitter in December 2006.
I'm in the 60dBu coverage area, 21.3 miles by car, or less than 20 air miles from the transmitter, yet it switches quite often, especially noticable when the analog/digital delays get off by a mere fraction of a second.

Shouldn't I have a continuous HD lock within the local 60dBu contour, less than 20 miles as the crow flies - or is only the 50KW FM station going to do that?

Local terrain plays a role, of course, but I would estimate reliable (>95%) mobile digital coverage should go as far as the 70 dBu (3.16 mV/m) contour, which in your case is 12 miles from the transmitter. If you're getting 75% digital at 20 miles out, this is considered quite normal for the IBOC system. One of iBiquity's design objectives was to avoid extending existing coverage areas.

I recently posted a link to an FM IBOC evaluation conducted in Canada last year, which also concluded that satisfactory digital coverage is limited to the 3 mV/m contour.
 
It is interesting that reliable HD Radio car reception is limited to the 70dbu coverage area, about 12 miles in this case. No doubt indoor HD reception would be even more challenging in commercial buildings and high rises using the supplied antennas.
To quote an old saying from this board "HD Radio? If you can't see the broadcasting tower you probably can't (reliably) get it!"
 
Play Freebird said:
Local terrain plays a role, of course, but I would estimate reliable (>95%) mobile digital coverage should go as far as the 70 dBu (3.16 mV/m) contour, which in your case is 12 miles from the transmitter. If you're getting 75% digital at 20 miles out, this is considered quite normal for the IBOC system. One of iBiquity's design objectives was to avoid extending existing coverage areas.

I recently posted a link to an FM IBOC evaluation conducted in Canada last year, which also concluded that satisfactory digital coverage is limited to the 3 mV/m contour.

Wait just one second, I hate to drag this off-subject, but...

I don't live in the 70dBu contour of any analog radio station (and within the 60kBu contour of only two or three) and yet hear a band full of analogs just fine... are you trying to tell me that THIS is what iBiquity is pushing as a complete replacement for analog radio? Something that, if implemented, would leave my rural area completely without reliable radio service?

I can hear two IBOC signals (a C and a C1, 79 and 70 miles away, respectively) with a roof antenna, but they're next to useless with any other antenna I've tried (analogs work great, mind you). Is that why?

- Trip
 
tripinva said:
I can hear two IBOC signals (a C and a C1, 79 and 70 miles away, respectively) with a roof antenna, but they're next to useless with any other antenna I've tried (analogs work great, mind you). Is that why?

I can get about 35 miles with a dipole indoors over flat terrain. An indoor antenna with gain (and no noise) like the Godar brings in a few more, if aimed in the right direction. To get much more than 35 miles, I need some sort of outdoor antenna. I don't have a lot of stations in that 100 to 150 mile range to try DX'ing HD, but as more convert I may have some targets to try.

I've read some pretty lofty claims for HD in the car - 70 to 80 with a factory stock radio? Uh - it sounds a bit like the "fish that got away" story to me - or maybe a variation of "my truck's bigger than your truck". I'm not going to call those folks out and out liars - maybe they got HD 70 or 80 miles out with a factory car radio - of course there ain't no such animal (at least in their brand of vehicle). But to get HD at that range, they would have to be up on the side of a mountain with a clear view of the towers or something. I think 35 miles would probably be about it under normal conditions - certainly in today's vehicles with cruddy antennas I doubt a factory stock receiver would do very well on HD. Maybe 20 to 25 miles if you are lucky.

The disturbing aspect of this is that HD advocates are out there promoting misinformation about how well it can be received, when experienced, careful DX'ers have very different results with the system. Some of their inflated claims of range are bordering on the ridiculous - HD reception at the point where analog is starting to have problems. They might fool a few gullible consumers that way, but probably not informed audiphiles.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
The disturbing aspect of this is that HD advocates are out there promoting misinformation about how well it can be received, when experienced, careful DX'ers have very different results with the system. Some of their inflated claims of range are bordering on the ridiculous - HD reception at the point where analog is starting to have problems. They might fool a few gullible consumers that way, but probably not informed audiphiles.

Since I'am in favor of this system I guess that makes me an "advocate'.

In light of your above quote, I risk being called a liar, but here are the facts regarding my experience with New York city stations.

The majority of FM stations are now running iboc and I receive all of them reliably using an Acurian and supplied dipole. The fidelity is somewhat improved due to the lack of gross clipping of the highs but the biggest advantage is the elimination of multipath.

Of the 6 AM stations running iboc, only WCBS is unreliable using only the supplied 4" loop.

DX'ing is irrelevant to comm and non-comm broadcasters. if the system covers the COL, it works.

As for "gullible consumers" no need to fret about this as most states, hopefully yours included, have decent consumer laws. If it doesn't work...take it back.

Lino
 
LinoNYC said:
Of the 6 AM stations running iboc, only WCBS is unreliable using only the supplied 4" loop.

DX'ing is irrelevant to comm and non-comm broadcasters. if the system covers the COL, it works.

Of course I won't call you a liar. I will say that my experience is different than yours.

I am right on top of a 5kW low band blowtorch with a half million square mile footprint. The 4" loop is not capable of getting reliable HD lock. Neither is a Terk AM advantage. It takes a 2 foot loop to do it. There is nothing wrong with my tuner - it is a really good DX receiver getting stations hundreds of miles away daytime. Over a thousand at night. There is no noise source jamming it. But HD from the local? Unreliable.

DX'ing is the only way people in metro areas will hear HD. I can guarantee you - the stations in our metro area care about a LOT more than the COL. Sure, there are a million people there. But there are another 4.6 million in addition out in the suburbs. If you were a station owner, would you really want to only cover 20% of your potential listeners? I think not!

All I can do is report my experience. If you have better luck, so be it. It doesn't alter my observations in the slightest, because they are based on the scientific method. Be aware that fantastic claims like Houston FM HD in Huntsville in a car will be met with scepticism on the part of experienced listeners like myself. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Someone's word is not evidence of extraordinary reception, unless backed up with recordings at documentable locations.

I am an experienced DX'er, so there is a long list of things I will do right to begin with - like not laying the 4 inch loop flat, throwing a dipole in the corner all crumpled up, etc. Somehow, radio manufacturers have made receivers that actually work under those conditions with analog reception. But those same abuses by consumers will not net reliable HD reception. Educating consumers on how to DX is a fantastically futile endeavor - unless it was in the early 70's for blacked out football games on television. Somehow I don't think HD radio inspires the same fanaticism. Therefore, if another experienced engineer gets HD at home, and they are 50 miles out (as opposed to my 35 mile experience) with a dipole, they are probably located on higher terrain. So be it. If I were on the same terrain I might experience the same results. With an outdoor antenna, I've already pushed the limit to about 80 miles. Most of DX is the antenna anyway - so just about any HD receiver should do 80 miles, if they are located where I am with the same antenna. But how many consumers are going to erect a deep fringe FM antenna just to get HD radio? How many housaing associations allow antennas these days - there are deed restrictions against outdoor antennas most places.
 
LinoNYC said:
DX'ing is irrelevant to comm and non-comm broadcasters. if the system covers the COL, it works.

I sure hope you weren't calling me a DXer in this case (I don't think that you were, I just wish to clarify). These are "LOCAL" radio stations who consider me to be within their coverage area. They provide local school closings and all that. It's one of the benefits they get from being big signals on mountaintops. I'm not within any actual contours of these stations, but the analog signals do make it here very reliably. Digitals don't though.

- Trip
 
tripinva asked:

are you trying to tell me that THIS is what iBiquity is pushing as a complete replacement for analog radio?

Yes.

Something that, if implemented, would leave my rural area completely without reliable radio service?

Possibly. If you have a problem with that I suggest you file a complaint with the FCC.

Wake up people. We've been batting these topics around for a long time on this here message board and the sooner the public realizes that this system called "IBOC" is all about iBiQuity getting to the point of critical mass so that it can take the company public and reimburse its speculating investors, the better off we will all be.
 
tripinva said:
[
I sure hope you weren't calling me a DXer in this case (I don't think that you were, I just wish to clarify). These are "LOCAL" radio stations who consider me to be within their coverage area.
- Trip

You're certainly not alone -- it looks like they're even having digital coverage problems down in the People's Republic of Tulsa.

KWGS, the public radio station there, acknowledges the fact that "HD Radio coverage is limited to the Tulsa metropolitan area and nearby cities" and suggests that listeners "may need to move the radio around and adjust the antenna to lock onto the signal", or else install an outside antenna (as a DX-er might do.) However, they anticipate that the FCC may permit an HD power increase to allow the digital signal to reach the "entire coverage area":

http://www.kwgs.org/

I sympathize with public radio stations in this situation. The digital transmitter project was a major expense for KWGS, which is actually trying to providing some worthwhile content, but their listeners still want to know why HD isn't providing "vastly improved" sound.

Note that KWGS is licensed for 50 kW at 325 meters, a signal that should be 6 dB more effective than any FM in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, yet in relatively flat terrain, the station is apparently still unable to provide satisfactory digital coverage.
 
I can tell you on my place 30 miles south of Austin, I cant hardly get KFMK's HD signal if it does it wont stay locked,,, the FM stereo comes in fine, but the HD does not -- with that said KDHT was said to be in HD but I couldnt even recieve the HD Signal, I can get the FM Stereo fine, but not the HD signal. The only HD Channel I can sometimes recieve out in Lavaca county is KNTE FM stereo is more reliable than HD in both places..
 
May I suggest you call the stations in question to see if they are broadcasting in HD. The lists mean little because changes are always occuring. For instance, WQCD is broadcasting an HD 2 stream. It's Indian music but there's no mention of it in any listing at this time.
 
My Accurian HD Radio does not have RDS, but every now and then I will see the HD signal's RDS Call letters show up on KFMK, so that tells me they are in HD, I can get their HD signal if I have my antenna outdoors hooked up pointed to Austin.
 
jras20 said:
My Accurian HD Radio does not have RDS, but every now and then I will see the HD signal's RDS Call letters show up on KFMK, so that tells me they are in HD, I can get their HD signal if I have my antenna outdoors hooked up pointed to Austin.

I've thrown everything I can into getting 110 mile HD reception. I've got plenty of analog signal level, but I suspect the problem is first adjacents overlapping the HD sidebands. When and if another 100 mile plus station converts, I'll try on it. Until then, about all I can do is get the antenna up higher. But this is the exact same antenna I used for 330 mile reception from Midland to Dallas. And I can switch it to the older analog tuner - and before some new locals and some new HD sidebands, Austin was an easy catch from my location. I've got plenty of signal - and the Sangean is almost as sensitive as my best analog tuner.
 
I also have the Sangean HD-1 If only I would of waited till the 1x came along I could of disabled the HD for the stations I wanted to DX. I wish there was a way to do that with the HD-1.
 
The HD signals are at 1% of the power of the ERP. That's 20 dBu lower than the analog. If it were all-digital at full ERP, then we would have solid HD till the present 50 dBu contour, and spotty HD out to the 30 dBu. You can't have that with analog. You don't need much signal to decode HD, but you do need to be above the noise level.
 
Nick said:
The HD signals are at 1% of the power of the ERP. That's 20 dBu lower than the analog. If it were all-digital at full ERP, then we would have solid HD till the present 50 dBu contour, and spotty HD out to the 30 dBu. You can't have that with analog. You don't need much signal to decode HD, but you do need to be above the noise level.

This is the exact reason why I have supported a new band for digital right from the start. If people were going to have to buy new radios anyway for HD - new bands would have made sense. Longwave is basically wasted in the US and would have been perfect for digital AM. And - we have the perfect opportunity to extend the FM band down to 54 MHz to accomodate digital FM. The reason the FCC didn't do it has more to do with politics and greed than it does technical reasons.
 
I guess that is why DTV works as far as it says? Its on a diffrent band, I can DX San antonio's full service DTV stations 60 miles with a pair of Rabbit ears clear most of the time.
 
jras20 said:
I guess that is why DTV works as far as it says? Its on a diffrent band, I can DX San antonio's full service DTV stations 60 miles with a pair of Rabbit ears clear most of the time.

DTV is ALL digital, right now. No hybrid mode, which is the problem on FM and AM. I have high hopes that all digital transmission will make DX possible over previously unheard of distances. Because the digital sidebands - at least on AM - are extremely robust even at present power levels. I anticipate 50 kW AM station ranges of 600 to 1000 miles daytime in all digital mode, based on what I heard out west.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
jras20 said:
I guess that is why DTV works as far as it says? Its on a diffrent band, I can DX San antonio's full service DTV stations 60 miles with a pair of Rabbit ears clear most of the time.

DTV is ALL digital, right now. No hybrid mode, which is the problem on FM and AM. I have high hopes that all digital transmission will make DX possible over previously unheard of distances. Because the digital sidebands - at least on AM - are extremely robust even at present power levels. I anticipate 50 kW AM station ranges of 600 to 1000 miles daytime in all digital mode, based on what I heard out west.

So if we could do this in a diffrent band, I would be able to get Houston HD out at my place in Lavaca county with little or no problem? I can get a good FM stereo sound from them on my home stereo. But HD is not even listenable.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom