How long until WPAT Switches format?

[Morpheux]

Even though they have a bilingual music approach,they're going about it all wrong. Listeners who want to hear English language pop and rhythmic music are already listening to Z 100 or KTU or even NOW. If they want to hear bachata or something Urbano then there are already listening to X96.3 or La Mega. All these stations superserve their listeners. WPAT should try to go for a large ignore demographic--second and third generation Latinos who prefer English language rhythmic music. (freestyle,house,dance). We already have three stations that serve the Spanish language crowd. In the ppm era there is no room for four Spanish FM stations in NYC. Why? Simply because the majority of Latinos in NYC are assimilated and/or acculturated. The acculturated segment of the Latino population are not being served by Z and much less KTU these days. SBS must be aware that the growth of Latino media in the near future is with English dominant and bilingual Latinos.

 

[davideduardo]

In the ppm era there is no room for four Spanish FM stations in NYC. Why? Simply because the majority of Latinos in NYC are assimilated and/or acculturated. The acculturated segment of the Latino population are not being served by Z and much less KTU these days. SBS must be aware that the growth of Latino media in the near future is with English dominant and bilingual Latinos.

The Hispanic population of New York is 56.6% Spanish dominant.

That means, of 3,787,000 12+ Hispanics, 2.4 million are either "only Spanish speaking" or "mostly Spanish speaking". Add in another, roughly, 800,000 who self-define as bilingual, and you can see that there are 3 over million people who generally use Spanish language stations.

Add in Hispanics who define themselves as "mostly English speaking" who still like Spanish language music, and you get to the cume of 3.8 million persons for WADO, WQBU, WPAT, WXNY and WSKQ.

 

[Lucha Libre AAA]

And now, 92.7 FM flipped from Regional Mexican to a brand called "Mami".

I'll bet that along ethnic lines, Puerto Ricans and Colombians are more likely to be English dominant, while Mexicans and Dominicans tend to be more Spanish dominant.

Breaks my heart to visit NYC for Thanksgiving and not be able to hear Regional Mexican anymore. Same thing happened to me in Tampa(Hillsborough and Pinellas don't have Regional Mexican right now).

 

[TonySantiago]

Even though they have a bilingual music approach,they're going about it all wrong. Listeners who want to hear English language pop and rhythmic music are already listening to Z 100 or KTU or even NOW. If they want to hear bachata or something Urbano then there are already listening to X96.3 or La Mega. All these stations superserve their listeners. WPAT should try to go for a large ignore demographic--second and third generation Latinos who prefer English language rhythmic music. (freestyle,house,dance). We already have three stations that serve the Spanish language crowd. In the ppm era there is no room for four Spanish FM stations in NYC. Why? Simply because the majority of Latinos in NYC are assimilated and/or acculturated. The acculturated segment of the Latino population are not being served by Z and much less KTU these days. SBS must be aware that the growth of Latino media in the near future is with English dominant and bilingual Latinos.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. But, to play devils advocate, here is what I believe corporate thinks of dance/EDM.

The crowd under 30 doesn't listen to radio anymore. They are all on smartphones, digital media players, social media and could care less of FM. But some markets out there still depend on FM because they can't necessarily afford the new media. For Latinos and African-Americans, they still depend on FM, right? Older folks, they'll NEVER understand new media so that's one audience we can get! You know what, an AM station has been established all these years, let's move it up to the FM dial! No brainer, a format is already in place and we save money!!!

Techno music? That's all good and fine in the clubs but it can NEVER be on radio! Don't you think Pulse 87 would still be around if they did well with dance music? They barely cracked a 1.0! Let's go further back...if Hot 97 did well with dance music, then they would have never converted for the fast money that was rising with hip-hop. Fact of the matter is that you and your buddies and Tony Santiago can all hang together with your iPods or his dumb show on that Party station somewhere and that should satisfy you.

The industry is just that stubborn. You can ask the country music fans in that sense. And if the rumors hold true on 94.7, I hope they get their country station.

???

 

[TheBigA]

Fact of the matter is that you and your buddies and Tony Santiago can all hang together with your iPods or his dumb show on that Party station somewhere and that should satisfy you.

Here's a simple question: What is EDM listenership like on weekday mornings?

 

[TonySantiago]

Fact of the matter is that you and your buddies and Tony Santiago can all hang together with your iPods or his dumb show on that Party station somewhere and that should satisfy you.

Here's a simple question: What is EDM listenership like on weekday mornings?

Too bad we don't have commercial stations to drop that example or else I'd give it to you.

 

[davideduardo]

Fact of the matter is that you and your buddies and Tony Santiago can all hang together with your iPods or his dumb show on that Party station somewhere and that should satisfy you.

Here's a simple question: What is EDM listenership like on weekday mornings?

In Mexico City, where dance "Beat" is on a full signal commercial facility, it is 16th among FMs and 18th overall, with a 2.0 share.

http://alfa913.mx/carrousel/¡gracias-a-ustedes-alfa-91-3-sigue-siendo-la-1.html

This is the IBOPE survey in the world's largest radio market.

In the daypart breaks, the station overperforms itself in 6PM - Mid, and seriously underperforms in 6 AM to Noon.

Your question reveals a serious issue with dance... the one that made Cox reevaluate the format in Miami... most of the listening is afternoons and evenings, while agency buys are 6 AM-7PM, so such stations look a lot worse in the buy dayparts than in 6-Mid.

 

[Morpheux]

I don't have access to raw numbers but WQHT,KTU and WBLS have a healthy share of their audience that are second generation and beyond--Latinos who prefer rhythm based music. They tend to be 25-54 in age whether they are English dominant,Bilingual and yes-even some Spanish dominant.Why would WPAT not court these listeners? All I'm saying is that the music mix that WPAT offers is missing the mark. NYC has a rich history in dance music with many of those being from the Latino communities.This seems like a better mix instead of playing Maroon 5 or PSY. WPAT IS down to 1.0. Pulse just as well on a limited signal.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't have access to raw numbers but WQHT,KTU and WBLS have a healthy share of their audience that are second generation and beyond--Latinos who prefer rhythm based music. They tend to be 25-54 in age whether they are English dominant,Bilingual and yes-even some Spanish dominant.Why would WPAT not court these listeners? All I'm saying is that the music mix that WPAT offers is missing the mark. NYC has a rich history in dance music with many of those being from the Latino communities.This seems like a better mix instead of playing Maroon 5 or PSY. WPAT IS down to 1.0. Pulse just as well on a limited signal.

And WLTW (the leading English language station among Hispanics), WHTZ, WQHT, WKTU, WCBS-FM, and even, to a small extent, WBLS (only 16% of its audience is Hispanic and it ranks 13th among Hispanics) already serve specific segments of the Hispanic audience that like English language music.

Not all second generation Hispanics like rhythmic music... some like WLTW or CBS-FM and other options. And many second generation Hispanics do use Spanish language radio.

Competing for a portion of the Hispanic audience in English is difficult. And for a company whose expertise is entirely in Spanish language stations to try that is a leap of faith. SBS has been attempting a mostly-English presentation of mostly English songs in Miami and LA, and is not doing very well at it... in fact, rumored plans to put the same format on WPAT and WLEY were scuttled due to the underwhelming early results of WRMA and KXOL.

 

[Morpheux]

In NY a leap of faith wouldn't be needed regarding rhythmic music attracting English dominant Latinos. 92 KTU and the current version of KTU as well as the original Hot 97 thrived on the support of their Latino audience.That's 30 years worth of research to prove that their is an audience that is being bypass.These were dance leaning Top 40 stations.Not the same as a Hot 97 today or even KTU for that matter.

Perhaps,SBS is not capable of pulling off such a format (and something tells me that they already have something else in mind) but at this rate with a 1.0 rating what do they have to lose?

 

[davideduardo]

Perhaps,SBS is not capable of pulling off such a format (and something tells me that they already have something else in mind) but at this rate with a 1.0 rating what do they have to lose?

Like I said, SBS has tried what you are suggesting... and it is on WRMA in Miami and KXOL in LA... a very rhythmic format, 85% of the music in English with a smattering of Spanish rhythmic material and DJ Laz in the morning. It's not working.

I'd expect them to imitate Mami 92.7 if they have given up on the English language format.

 

[davideduardo]

In NY a leap of faith wouldn't be needed regarding rhythmic music attracting English dominant Latinos.

You are missing the point that the #1 English station among Hispanics is Lite FM.

 

[Giacomo Siffredi]

Here's a simple question: What is EDM listenership like on weekday mornings?

In Mexico City, where dance "Beat" is on a full signal commercial facility, it is 16th among FMs and 18th overall, with a 2.0 share.

http://alfa913.mx/carrousel/¡gracias-a-ustedes-alfa-91-3-sigue-siendo-la-1.html

This is the IBOPE survey in the world's largest radio market.

In the daypart breaks, the station overperforms itself in 6PM - Mid, and seriously underperforms in 6 AM to Noon.

Your question reveals a serious issue with dance... the one that made Cox reevaluate the format in Miami... most of the listening is afternoons and evenings, while agency buys are 6 AM-7PM, so such stations look a lot worse in the buy dayparts than in 6-Mid.

Interesting.

Taking an example such as that and applying it to the New York City market, would WNOW-FM or WKTU benefit from maintaining their present playlists from 6AM to 7PM or 8PM, and playing remixes and EDM tracks during evenings and overnights? This music is really an extension of their existing formats and serves a significant percentage of their existing audience.

With all due respect to Tony Santiago, I can understand why dance music (house, techno, trance) would not perform well or be an easy sell at, say, 1PM on Wednesday afternoon. However, I think it would have a decent chance Thursday night at 10PM.

 

[TonySantiago]

With all due respect to Tony Santiago, I can understand why dance music (house, techno, trance) would not perform well or be an easy sell at, say, 1PM on Wednesday afternoon. However, I think it would have a decent chance Thursday night at 10PM.

First Giacomo, thank you.

What gets lost often enough, when I talk about this, is that during the dayparts you do play what is mainstream and put some edgy dance in there. Pulse 87 did that. KTU pre-2006 did that but the one thing they did which I had criticized then, wrongfully I admit, was playing a lot more older music than currents.

Yeah, during the day parts play the Rihanna, Chris Brown, Calvin Harris, David Guetta but you also add in our dance branded artists in there, what has the commercial potential in there. Then later, get more edgy and then if you want to go deeper then why not. Even on my specialty show on Party Radio USA, the first hour is about "warming people up" by playing the commercial potential aspect of dance and then come the "infamous second hour", I'll take chances and break all boundaries. I don't care, it's about the music to me in that sense and I'm helping out the community

I have stated these thoughts in prior posts but more often than not they get "misplaced" with others thinking that I want this ultra underground edgy dance station. 92.3 Now may be the closest station to what I am talking about, but I also understand that since they are CHR, they have to cater to what the format is about. Not to knock 'KTU. They may have more rhythmic music in there but for what they are targeting, they will NEVER go edgy in that sense. It's not what they are.

Even DriveFX in the Hudson Valley, which is a VERY progressive dance/EDM station, simulcasts Mancow in the mornings.

Lastly, to David Eduardo, I always respect your opinion when it comes to Spanish radio. I'll give you that. Always have. But for dance music and yeah, I know, I know, I'm a fan....my passion for the music and for radio goes back to me being an 11 old kid ripping the stereo dial off so that it would stay on 92.3 (which was the original WKTU) forever. Either or, I would never do anything that would put my music and its relation to radio in jeopardy. Plus, this is New York, not Mexico City, not even Miami.

Okay, you sound a bit more commercial during the dayparts (lean it towards CHR but still play some dance) then pick it up around 6PM.

 

[Morpheux]

Tony pretty much summed up the format that I would like to see. If SBS was to do this it could super serve the Latino audience by throwing in Freestyle from the 90's (no 80's) during the day parts.

David,the format that WRMA in Miami and KXOL in L.A is programming is rhythmic but not what I'm looking to hear.I'm more for a dance leaning Top 40 (see Tony's post above for a description).As far as WLTW,the station does play a bit of 80's dance so I see why they would do well with English speaking Latinos as they were a big part of the original KTU and Hot 97 audience in the 80's but I wasn't aware of their draw with Latinos so thanks for that info.

 

[TheBigA]

If a radio station is going to flip to EDM, there needs to be ratings data on how the format is expected to do in morning drive.

 

[Morpheux]

Just take a listen to KTU or Z100 since they play a decent amount of mainstream dance artists. Dance is turning that corner and some might say it's mainstream already. All we need is a flagship station.But I think that is where the issue lies. Why allow a dance music station to come in and compete when you can control how much dance is allow through your CHR brand.

 

[TonySantiago]

If a radio station is going to flip to EDM, there needs to be ratings data on how the format is expected to do in morning drive.

And if you look four posts up at what I had said, the station would be more commercial sounding during the dayparts (aka, morning drive, lunch time, drive time). Take out the word EDM altogether because from what I have said in other areas, I've been calling this "dance/EDM".

What is the difference you ask? EDM, to me, refers to a specific genre of dance popularized by world DJ's such as Avicii, Afrojack, Swedish House Mafia, etc. mainly in festivals such as Electric Zoo, Electric Daisy Carnival, Ultra Music Festival, etc. Whereas dance is the wider spectrum of the picture and covers many "umbrellas". The latter is where you have artists like Lucas Prata, Kim Sozzi, Nadia Ali, Alexandra Stan, Jonathan Mendelsohn, Wynter Gordon, Crystal Waters, etc.

Believe me, I would LOVE to get you data on this. I REALLY WOULD. But if you're going to look at what's in "front of your face" as opposed to the wider angle, then you and other radio conservatives haven't and will NEVER accept Pulse 87 in that sense (since it was at a low dial position with limited antenna). And being 2008, the EDM revolution didn't really begin until around 2009, just as Pulse was ending its run. Just know that this isn't a format about 9 people in a club that like this. There is MORE to it than that. Dance fans understand. And for those that dislike and outright HATE dance music, there's no amount of me posting like this that's going to get through to those folks.

But let's get back to the WPAT angle of this thread, which is what this is all about. Morpheux had mentioned Freestyle in this. And if the station is going to keep a Latino focus, then yeah, definitely play some of those classics into the format especially if you want to get to the 35-54 Latino numbers because we grew up with that music back in the days. But for a current based dance station, the answer would be NO. That's because for a current dance station, it NEEDS to be current (or at the very max, go back 10 years if we're mentioning recurrents). But if a new Latin based English speaking dance genre came about in the future and takes the area by storm, then that should be considered.

 

[Morpheux]

I do remember Rumba not doing so well when they tried to do a Dominican format. Por lo tanto,more Dominicans have left NY than new arrivals have come from the republic in the last decade. So where is the growth? Why be Spanish focus when the growth is not with that demographic....

I see 93.1 being sold off. Btw,as I write this I am hearing an online bilingual station that is playing freestyle,house,dance,bachata from Miami whose celebrating their fourth anniversary.

 

[TheBigA]

It sounds very complicated. And you wonder why a company isn't willing to risk a $75 million investment on it?