How long until WPAT Switches format?

[Morpheux]

You have a circular argument here.


You say that an EDM station would have to be more commercial and less edgy in the daytime. In other words, it would be competing with KTU, Z-100, Hot, Now and others. That's a crowded playing field... which is what I said.

In the quote lies the truth. Why would Z 100 OR KTU allow any other station to compete when they can can control how much dance is allowed through their corporated brand. That was the lesson learned from Hot 97....never allow independent labels the avenue to beat out corporate endorsed artists.

 

[davideduardo]

In the quote lies the truth. Why would Z 100 OR KTU allow any other station to compete when they can can control how much dance is allowed through their corporated brand. That was the lesson learned from Hot 97....never allow independent labels the avenue to beat out corporate endorsed artists.

You know, the belief that honest programmers pay any attention to the label is something that has mystified me for the longest time.

When picking new music, every programmer I know has a process that first eliminates the songs that don't sound like the station... we used to put them in one box (or folder in the computer, now), and if nothing happened because we missed something, they went to the street team to give away.

Then ones that sound like stiffs but are at least in the format are saved in another box or folder... just in case they break out somewhere else.

Then the ones that have the "I'd play it if there is a slot" songs are either physically or mentally sorted into superstars, artists who have had a hit or two or three and new artists.

We look at the list on the air, and the research and the MScores and stuff like that. If we have two openings for songs, we start with the superstars, and work our way down to the lesser artists, making sure we don't add too many songs of one type (like slow jams on a rhythmic station). Only if we see one of the new artist songs breaking big somewhere else will we move it up in priority. We know the sound of a familiar artist will generate less MScore negatives early on... but we will gladly move up a new artist if we see stations we respect giving it play.

Nowhere does the label fit into this at all. Playlists are dictated by ratings, and ratings are improved by playing songs people like. It does not matter who issued the release.

 

[TheBigA]

Yeah I'm spitting out my passion here, again, but it's as I've said too, things are much different now than they were as recent as 3 years ago. Dance/EDM has become more accepted now than ever.

But that isn't what this is about. The question is can this work as a radio format, a brand, a destination, and the answer is: Only for a few hours a day. And commercial FM radio stations don't do block programming. So we conclude it's a good 6 hour format during the lowest rated daypart of the day. That's not a very motivating factor for someone to break format.

 

[davideduardo]

I know the Dominican market is larger than the Mexican market in NY DMA, but I'm surprised Univision would give up the Regional Mexican format.

First, radio uses Arbitron MSAs... Metropolitan Survey Areas... and the DMA, which is generally larger, is a TV market area and not used in radio.

The results of a format have a lot to do with both the size of the population targeted by a station, the station's coverage of the intended target, and by the willingness or availability of persons in the target audience to participate in the PPM ratings.

WQBU seemed to be doing well as far as attracting advertisers.

Counting spots is not a measure of success. It's in knowing how much a station gets for its ads that we can begin to measure success. Stations with low ratings have very low ad rates, and thus make much less money. In fact, a station might have lots of ads, but sold at such low rates that it does not turn a profit.

And a station might have fewer ads, but because of large audience sizes and proportionally higher rates, it would make much more money.

They had lots of McDonald's, Walmart, AT&T, big locals like AutoWorld. They were the presenting radio station for all Vicente Fernandez concerts in the area, all of which did huge business at Nassau Coliseum, Prudential, and IZOD.

For all we know many of those ads were bonus ads for buying on another, co-owned station. This is like when you hear ads at 8 or 9 at night... they are almost always "freebies" given away to make the delivery cost lower in the key 6 A to 7 PM period that advertisers generally specify.

More importantly, WQBU was a cross-promotion vehicle for local Univision and Telefutura. Almost every commercial break ran a spot for their programming.

I would imagine that such cross-promotion might continue in the future if it is beneficial to both sides of the equation.

 

[WNTIRadio]

For all we know Wink many of those ads were bonus ads for buying on another, co-owned station. This is like when you hear ads at 8 or 9 at night... they are almost always "freebies" given away to make the delivery cost lower in the key 6 A to 7 PM period that advertisers generally specify.

To add to David's point, don't forget that most of the time you hear Home Depot, McDonald's, Geico etc, they're usually barter spots for a service. Could be a prep service, news service, satellite fed music, features and what not. Just hearing them on a station doesn't mean that they are paid spots.

 

[davideduardo]

To add to David's point, don't forget that most of the time you hear Home Depot, McDonald's, Geico etc, they're usually barter spots for a service. Could be a prep service, news service, satellite fed music, features and what not. Just hearing them on a station doesn't mean that they are paid spots.

Not so likely in New York City. In the case in question, WQBU, there are no Spanish prep services used on that former format, no music feed, no news service, no features like that.

Granted, a few things like MediaBase and BDS and things like Media Monitors may be trade, but the cost is going to be a few spots a week.

The large accounts that you mention don't depend on the hit and miss nature of barter... they place cash buys with pre-established reach and frequency goals and total market GRPs.

 

[WNTIRadio]

Many stations I contract for use Dial Global and/or run ABC news... and all of those accounts I mentioned are barter spots that get loaded into the automation daily.

I'm sure they also buy on CPP in places, but they do buy a ton of barter on the big services.

 

[davideduardo]

Many stations I contract for use Dial Global and/or run ABC news... and all of those accounts I mentioned are barter spots that get loaded into the automation daily.

Smaller market, yes. But we are talking about New York City... and specifically a music station in Spanish.

Syndicated talk in all market sizes does carry barter spots, but on music stations you won't find a lot of it in large markets.

Often large accounts use networks to supplement their Top 50 market buys, since it makes buying easier with one invoice for dozens if not hundreds of stations. But in the larger markets, most Geico, Coke, Home Depot is local spot, not network, particularly with music stations.

 

[Morpheux]

If a radio station is going to flip to EDM, there needs to be ratings data on how the format is expected to do in morning drive.

But let's get back to the WPAT angle of this thread, which is what this is all about. Morpheux had mentioned Freestyle in this. And if the station is going to keep a Latino focus, then yeah, definitely play some of those classics into the format especially if you want to get to the 35-54 Latino numbers because we grew up with that music back in the days. But for a current based dance station, the answer would be NO. That's because for a current dance station, it NEEDS to be current (or at the very max, go back 10 years if we're mentioning recurrents). But if a new Latin based English speaking dance genre came about in the future and takes the area by storm, then that should be considered.

I'd rather have this discussion if there was a dance station to begin with. If you want to maximize profits then freestyle would have to be part of the equation.NY is a unique market given it's ethnic component and being that is is home to many dance artists.Pulse had to add some freestyle after intially stating that it would not be a "guido sounding station".I would keep freestyle to day parts and very minimal ( once every two hours)with mostly titles from mid 90's. Throwbacks work well on CHRs. Everything in dance can be brand new. I know that in the dance community anything pass two months is "played out". That's the kind of mentality that hurts dance being on the radio.

 

[TheBigA]

That's the kind of mentality that hurts dance being on the radio.

That's part of it. If it's all currents, you either end up with a lot of repetition, or a lot of non-hits. it's 168 hours a week to fill. That's a lot of currents. THAT hurts dance being on the radio. Because, as I said, commercial stations don't believe in block programming. They want a certain amount of consistency, so every time you tune in the station, regardless of the time, you'll hear the format.

 

[Barry]

KXOS, a low-rated Spanish A/C station in Los Angeles, flipped a few days ago to English language CHR songs. But the dj's still speak in Spanish.
Could such a format be viable in New York?

Exitos 93.9: http://www.exitos939.com/

 

[TonySantiago]

But that isn't what this is about. The question is can this work as a radio format, a brand, a destination, and the answer is: Only for a few hours a day. And commercial FM radio stations don't do block programming. So we conclude it's a good 6 hour format during the lowest rated daypart of the day. That's not a very motivating factor for someone to break format.

You said 6 hours...I never said 6. It's LONGER than that. And I'll kinda answer David's question backhandedly here.

Yes, you lean a little more mainstream during the dayparts, but that doesn't mean the edgy music won't see the light of day there. You may not play it as much but you DO play it. The distinction with this station versus 92.3 Now, 'KTU and Z-100 is the fact that it is a current based dance station that caters to that younger audience. To break it down again.....

1) It would be a step up over 92.3 Now, which is dance friendly and gears to the younger demos but this station can go much further not being a CHR.
2) The demos would lean younger and gear towards males and females whereas 'KTU's big strength is women 25-54.
3) Z-100 has more of a "suburban" lean with their CHR approach than Now. This station would not be suburban, per se. There would be artists in there that would gear to those that live out in the suburbs (Swedish House Mafia, Avicii) but there would also be that dance edge that is really "NYC" oriented.

Morpheux mentioned about playing some freestyle. The minimal word is SOME. That would attract the older audience that lived through the era but you still want to keep the station current based somehow. It would definitely be minimal in comparison to what Pulse 87 did and what 'KTU (to which that music fits the format) does.

Let's take it back to 'KTU (pre-2006). They leaned towards edgier dance at night during Hollywood Hamilton/Goumba Johnny's show as well as Vic Latino. Yet some of that music did get into the day parts.

 

[TonySantiago]

To add to David's point, don't forget that most of the time you hear Home Depot, McDonald's, Geico etc, they're usually barter spots for a service. Could be a prep service, news service, satellite fed music, features and what not. Just hearing them on a station doesn't mean that they are paid spots.

That I get, especially if a show is syndicated.

I'm just saying that a dance/EDM station right now could bring in those advertisers, not just clubs or "mom and pop" places.

 

[TonySantiago]

That's the kind of mentality that hurts dance being on the radio.

That's part of it. If it's all currents, you either end up with a lot of repetition, or a lot of non-hits. it's 168 hours a week to fill. That's a lot of currents. THAT hurts dance being on the radio. Because, as I said, commercial stations don't believe in block programming. They want a certain amount of consistency, so every time you tune in the station, regardless of the time, you'll hear the format.

Back to Morpheux, it is a matter of changing the mentality for dance music not to be "disposable". But it can happen. If we go back to Pulse 87, a lot of tracks they played stayed on longer than a month or so, depending on how good or bad a track did. They didn't just "dispose" it. If that same track did get some play on CHR, most likely it would have been dumped. I remember very briefly when 92.3 Now played Dennis Ferrer's "Hey Hey". Didn't last long. Now granted, I haven't listened to Pulse 87's online stream but my educated guess (and someone can correct me if I am wrong here), is that the track was on much longer because of the type of station that it is.

Yes, you play Rihanna, Pitbull, Flo Rida, Chris Brown, Ne-Yo since that is rhythmic on the mainstream. But you also add in artists such as Nadia Ali, Kim Sozzi, Lucas Prata, etc. in there. By no means am I saying add something on the playlist that a DJ in Cielo spun at 2AM that though while "off da chain", would not "sell" to commercial radio outside of a specialty show. But there would be that consistency because no, not everyone is core into dance as others but you still put on something rhythmic that they are familiar with and "spoon feed" more into it.

 

[TheBigA]

You said 6 hours...I never said 6. It's LONGER than that.

My point is it's not a 24/7 format. That's what commercial radio stations, especially in major markets, want. They want a brand, an identity, a certain amount of consistency in sound in all day parts. That's one reason why this hasn't happened in NYC.

 

[TonySantiago]

It is it's not a 24/7 format. That's what commercial radio stations, especially in major markets, want. They want a brand, an identity, a certain amount of consistency in sound in all day parts. That's one reason why this hasn't happened in NYC.

This can be branded.

Really when you get to it, 'KTU (1996 - 2006) wasn't 24/7 per se. Basically their brand during the day was about 70/30, with the 70 being about recurrents and older music (disco/freestyle), with the 30 being currents. When the night came the lean went more 50/50. This wouldn't be that different.

The station would have that "brand" in that sense and pick things up along the way. So as long as you have the foundation, which is current music. Sure, throw in a couple of recurrents in there but for the most part you keep it current. Have some of the mainstream rhythmic in there from the artists I've stated earlier and intersperse our dance branded artists in there and there you go. Along the way as the numbers come in, you tweak it, just like any format to see how the audience responds.

For a market like New York, that has had a long history regarding dance music on the radio, this would work out.

 

[Morpheux]

Now that WPAT is down to a 0.9 rating,why not put on some Tropical Christmas music and then introduce your new format after Dec 25th? Provided of course that our alignment with the center of the Milky Way on 12/21 will not adversely affect us.

 

[Identnut]

Now that WPAT is down to a 0.9 rating,why not put on some Tropical Christmas music and then introduce your new format after Dec 25th? Provided of course that our alignment with the center of the Milky Way on 12/21 will not adversely affect us.

Well, there's not enough tropical Christmas music even for a stunt. This isn't Puerto Rico where there's singers that come out seasonally with their mainstay Christmas albums. This is multicultural New York.

 

[Morpheux]

Now that WPAT is down to a 0.9 rating,why not put on some Tropical Christmas music and then introduce your new format after Dec 25th? Provided of course that our alignment with the center of the Milky Way on 12/21 will not adversely affect us.

Well, there's not enough tropical Christmas music even for a stunt. This isn't Puerto Rico where there's singers that come out seasonally with their mainstay Christmas albums. This is multicultural New York.

You're kidding, right? New Christmas music doesn't have to come out every year for the songs to be recognized.

 

[Barry]

Assuming that SBS does not sell WPAT, they would probably want to continue offering some sort of format aimed at Spanish speaking listeners.
Can anyone think of one that could do well in this market, other than what is already being done on the other 3 Spanish language FM's? Might they do better if they returned to their softer a/c sound of a few years ago? Apparently no station is offering much for the many people from South America, Central America and Mexico that are not all that interested in tropical music.