How's OTA DTV working out for YOU?

[dave73]

Back to the subject at hand (more DTV disappointments):

EPG's. In my neck of the woods most, but not all, stations have a functioning EPG. Universally they have a few problems:

1. They are not always available for whatever reason. Other times they take several minutes to display after switching to the channel.
2. They don't carry much information. Most of what you get is the program name. That's all. No description, date of production, stars.....nada. Not even whether program is first run or repeat. Pretty useless.

Just another empty DTV promise.

At least with my Magnavox DTV box, it takes longer for the channel to appear, since it goes by PSIP channel rather than RF channel. For some channels, I can type the RF channel, and it'll appear faster than by the PSIP channel. That however doesn't work with the channels programmed by WCIU. Since I don't pick up WWME-LD (thought I did), I get PSIP 23.1 via WCIU PSIP 26.2. So if I type in 27.1 (WCIU's RF channel), it redirects it to PSIP 23.1. 27.2 goes to 23.2 with a No Signal message. If I actually got the WWME-LD signal (RF 39.1), it would pop up as 23.2. So except for any of the other channels, I must do a scan in order to get PSIP 26.1 - 26.6. However, since it goes by PSIP channel, it doesn't allow me to type in 38.1 for RF 38.1 (WGBO), since WCPX's PSIP channel is 38.1. WLS-TV's main channel is now on 44.1 (RF 7.1 is now their translator), but since WSNS uses 44.1 for their PSIP channel, I can't just type in 44.1 to get WLS-TV. 44.1 will go to WSNS instead. Even WXFT & WPWR also pose a problem on that. WXFT is on RF 50.1, but PSIP is 60.1, while WPWR is on RF 51.1, but PSIP is 50.1. So 50.1 would go to WPWR instead of WXFT.

I could just not have any channels stored to type in the RF channel, but because WCIU wants MeTV & MeToo pop up twice (MeTV come up as 23.1 & 26.2 & MeToo come up as 26.3 & 48.1), I have to do a scan to get these channels. So that keeps me from possibly DX'ing WKOW Madison Wisconsin (RF 26.1), unless I constantly do the autoscan.


Now onto listing the program names on the EPG: Sometimes it doesn't list a description of the program. Sometimes it doesn't list the program at all (either doe to an error, or not entered in at all). WYCC has decided that they don't wanna bother with entering the program name for PSIP 20.3 (MHZ Worldwide), since they don't program the channel themselves. WCIU's FBT (WCIU's original ethnic programming), they don't always list the programs for the ethnic programs. The Chinese programming might list Drama, or some other generic name. For Polish programming, it only lists Polvision. I don't know what all ethnic programming is still carried. They used to carry Reklama (not sure if spelled correctly), and that was Russian programming. They used to have a company in Chicago, but where they were at in Chicago closed a year or 2 ago.

WJYS PSIP 62.1 (RF 36.1) carries former translator, now called WEDE-CA on PSIP 62.2. It only lists MCTV in the ID, but for program, they only list the program as Regular Schedule, or Recurrent Programming. I believe since WJYS doesn't program the channel, that they can be lazy at listing their programs in the EPG. They figure that they're being nice to allow the current owners have space on WJYS's subchannel, since WEDE-CA is still analog on ch 34, and only covers Chicago & a few suburbs, but no longer covers their COL of Arlington Heights, due to WISN Milwaukee being on 34, and forced a station that was already granted Class A status to null toward Milwaukee.

 

[landtuna]

Dave,

Can you imagine trying to explain your last post to your aging aunt Emma?

My parents are both gone but I have to laugh every time I think of what they'd be saying to me if I tried explaining DTV to them.

 

[therealjm12]

Same with me Tuna. I just might as well explained how to build a rocket ship to the moon to them.

 

[fybush]

But you don't need to explain it to "aging aunt Emma," any more than you need to explain the intricacies of IP addressing and networking to her before she can get her e-mail. You tell her "type in aol.com," and if everything's working right behind the scenes, she gets where she needs to go. And you tell her "watch CBS on channel 2," and there's CBS on the same "channel 2" where it's been since 1952.

There are quirks, to be sure - I'm not certain that the original designers of the ATSC standard anticipated a situation like the duplication of virtual channel numbers between WWME-LD and WCIU-DT, for instance, or of "7.1" on both RF 7 and RF 44 - but those will be worked out with the next generation of receivers.

And Dave...there's still no such thing as "RF 38.1." There's "RF 38," the frequency band on which WGBO-DT transmits the data stream that contains virtual channel 66.1. Your receiver may indeed display WGBO's 66.1 channel when you type in "38.1," but that's arguably a design flaw in the Magnavox receiver, and it may be the cause of some of the other problems the receiver gives you.

 

[kenrayc]

On one of my boxes, a Digitalstream, CBS 47 KGPE in fresno will only work on 34.3 instead of 47.1, 34 is the RF channel, same with subchannel 47.2, its only works on 34.4. I tried rescanning it and nothing, my HDTV and my other box a Zenith, works on 47.1.
Another thing when that box is on 34.3 it wont dispay the call letter or the program guide info for CBS 47. Does anybody with a digitalstream have any similar problems like this?

 

[TexasTom]

Since no one has spoken up yet from the Dallas/Fort Worth area, I'll not that OTA DTV is working out well here...especially for those of us with outdoor antennas. At roughly 35 miles from the Cedar Hill tower farm, the digital transition has been almost invisible to me, since I'd been primarily watching the digital signals for several years. Even the digital LPTVs come in reliably.

The big glitch locally was with CBS's KTVT returning to its old analog channel (11) at relatively low power, but that's been corrected by having them return to their "interim" (now permanent) digital home on channel 19.

 

[w9wi]

Dave,

Can you imagine trying to explain your last post to your aging aunt Emma?

My parents are both gone but I have to laugh every time I think of what they'd be saying to me if I tried explaining DTV to them.

My mom is pretty much technically challenged. She's got a TV in the basement that isn't on cable. She had no trouble whatsoever obtaining a DTV coupon, buying a Magnavox converter box, attaching it to the TV, and getting it programmed. Rescanning after transition wasn't a problem either. (though the only station that changed frequency is one she never watches)

Now, she's complaining that Time-Warner isn't carrying PBS Create so she has to go downstairs to watch...

_________________________________________________

On one of my boxes, a Digitalstream, CBS 47 KGPE in fresno will only work on 34.3 instead of 47.1, 34 is the RF channel, same with subchannel 47.2, its only works on 34.4. I tried rescanning it and nothing, my HDTV and my other box a Zenith, works on 47.1. Another thing when that box is on 34.3 it wont dispay the call letter or the program guide info for CBS 47. Does anybody with a digitalstream have any similar problems like this?

Looks like your box isn't seeing the PSIP. As you noted, 34 is KGPE's RF channel; 3 and 4 are the "program numbers" associated with the .1 and .2 subchannels. Program numbers are usually invisible to viewers (just as the RF channel usually is) but if you aren't getting the remapping data, most DTV receivers will default to using them.

Have you rescanned for channels? (is it possible that for some reason you weren't receiving KGPE the first time you scanned? On most receivers, if you punch in a station's RF channel, it will come in even if you haven't scanned it in - which is exactly what you're seeing.)

Next thing I'd try is to tune in KGPE on 34.3 and then leave it on (just the box, you can turn the TV off) for an hour or so. Could be that the repitition rate on the appropriate data tables is too low -- that the virtual channel data isn't being sent often enough and your box isn't seeing it.

 

[dave73]

Dave,

Can you imagine trying to explain your last post to your aging aunt Emma?

My parents are both gone but I have to laugh every time I think of what they'd be saying to me if I tried explaining DTV to them.

I don't have an Aunt Emma. I however have a cousin by the name of Emma. I won't go into talking about her, or other family members. I will say that for most of my family, they wouldn't know this stuff. None of them frequent this board, the other board, or any of the cellphone message forums.

But you don't need to explain it to "aging aunt Emma," any more than you need to explain the intricacies of IP addressing and networking to her before she can get her e-mail. You tell her "type in aol.com," and if everything's working right behind the scenes, she gets where she needs to go. And you tell her "watch CBS on channel 2," and there's CBS on the same "channel 2" where it's been since 1952.

There are quirks, to be sure - I'm not certain that the original designers of the ATSC standard anticipated a situation like the duplication of virtual channel numbers between WWME-LD and WCIU-DT, for instance, or of "7.1" on both RF 7 and RF 44 - but those will be worked out with the next generation of receivers.

And Dave...there's still no such thing as "RF 38.1." There's "RF 38," the frequency band on which WGBO-DT transmits the data stream that contains virtual channel 66.1. Your receiver may indeed display WGBO's 66.1 channel when you type in "38.1," but that's arguably a design flaw in the Magnavox receiver, and it may be the cause of some of the other problems the receiver gives you.

Now if I don't store the channels, I can type in 38.1, and it would revert to 66.1. However, if WCPX on 43.1 is stored, it comes up as 38.1. Same with WLS-TV on 44.1 & WSNS on 45.1. If WSNS isn't stored, I can type in 45.1, and it would revert to 44.1. If WSNS is stored, then I can't type in 44.1 to get WLS-TV on 44.1, since the box is told that 44.1 is WSNS, and not WLS-TV. If WSNS isn't stored, then I can type in 44.1, and it would revert to 7.1 for WLS-TV. I however believe WCIU is the one who decided to have WCIU-DT's 26.2 & 26.3 also come up as 23.1 & 48.1. When WCIU promotes MeTV & MeToo on TV, they tell people to watch them on 26.2 & 26.3, not 23.1 & 48.1. though that's how they come up as well. Regardless, the older generations will want to watch their favorite program on the channel that they remember that station being on. WYIN-DT is the only station I know of that no identifies themselves as channel 56, even though they have to for PSIP. During station ID's, they ID as channel 17, and on their website, they don't hide it that they're on channel 17.

I just hope when I buy a new TV set, that it has the ability to go by RF channel & virtual channel. I have seen some Sanyo TV's with that feature. I however have been used to RCA TV's. My ATI TV tuner card goes by RF channel only, as it displays the channels in the order they were scanned.

 

[sebenste]

I'm probably one of the "early adopters". Or "earlier". When I moved into my current location 60 miles west of Chicago, I couldn't afford an antenna, and I only had a one-story attic, 20' up, to put them in. I'm a geek: it was new construction, and the contractor agreed to custom-build the attic opening so that my antennas would fit. Booyah!

So, back in 2003, I put up a ChannelMaster 4228 UHF antenna, on a rotor...and diplexed it with a 30 year old large channel 2-13 VHF-only Winegard antenna...not on a rotor. I can get everything consistently well from the Rockford, IL market (35 miles away) on my Zenith DTT-900 converter box, and from Chicago. I can't get a full power UHF in northwest Indiana, but I'm 80 miles away, and I expect that. Ditto a channel 10 at 1400', 40 miles to my south, hiding behind a hill south of me.

After WBBM-DT went from channel 3 to channel 12 in our market, it's all good. Except Telefutura doesn't come in, but they're having serious transmitter issues. Otherwise, I can also get a few Madison, WI stations (90 miles out) after dark, on clear or relatively calm nights. And "tropo" is quite fun: I DX'ed a station from Alpena, MI; Rochester, MN, and Mason City, IA this summer. I couldn't do that with analog.

So, all in all, I'm happy with it.

 

[kenrayc]

On one of my boxes, a Digitalstream, CBS 47 KGPE in fresno will only work on 34.3 instead of 47.1, 34 is the RF channel, same with subchannel 47.2, its only works on 34.4. I tried rescanning it and nothing, my HDTV and my other box a Zenith, works on 47.1. Another thing when that box is on 34.3 it wont dispay the call letter or the program guide info for CBS 47. Does anybody with a digitalstream have any similar problems like this?

Looks like your box isn't seeing the PSIP. As you noted, 34 is KGPE's RF channel; 3 and 4 are the "program numbers" associated with the .1 and .2 subchannels. Program numbers are usually invisible to viewers (just as the RF channel usually is) but if you aren't getting the remapping data, most DTV receivers will default to using them.

Have you rescanned for channels? (is it possible that for some reason you weren't receiving KGPE the first time you scanned? On most receivers, if you punch in a station's RF channel, it will come in even if you haven't scanned it in - which is exactly what you're seeing.)

Next thing I'd try is to tune in KGPE on 34.3 and then leave it on (just the box, you can turn the TV off) for an hour or so. Could be that the repitition rate on the appropriate data tables is too low -- that the virtual channel data isn't being sent often enough and your box isn't seeing it.

Did the rescan still the same with 34.3 for CBS 47, The box did pick up KBAK CBS 29 on 29.1 and KBFX FOX 58 on 58.2, 100 miles away in Bakersfield both are on RF channel 33, FOX 58 is a sub channel of KBAK CBS 29, anyway all of the progran info is there for CBS 29 ,but still not for the local CBS 47, and there is no other problems on any other stations, local or out of town, even the LPTV stations pick up on there PSIP channels. I will try the idea of leaving it on 34.3 and I'm going to do it all night tonight and see what happens. BTW KGPE 47 is on the same transmitter site as of nearly all Fresno Stations.

 

[w9wi]

Did the rescan still the same with 34.3 for CBS 47, The box did pick up KBAK CBS 29 on 29.1 and KBFX FOX 58 on 58.2, 100 miles away in Bakersfield both are on RF channel 33, FOX 58 is a sub channel of KBAK CBS 29, anyway all of the progran info is there for CBS 29 ,but still not for the local CBS 47, and there is no other problems on any other stations, local or out of town, even the LPTV stations pick up on there PSIP channels.

No program guide -- that's also a symptom of no PSIP. I'm beginning to think something is badly broken with KGPE's PSIP generator. That *is* probably the most complicated part of DTV as far as station engineers are concerned.

 

[tripinva]

I have TSReader data for KGPE on RabbitEars and I don't see anything obviously wrong with it. Not that it shows absolutely everything, but it's a start.

- Trip

 

[Mario500]

In the Mobile-Pensacola TV market, specifically Mobile's midtown area, I have been able to receive most of the local TV stations by indoor antenna at great quality. WFNA-TV (formerly known as WBPG-TV), the CW Television Network affiliate co-owned with WALA-TV, the FOX affiliate, is a tough station to receive on the three TV sets capable of digital TV reception in my home and I risk losing at least one station whenever I improve my reception of WFNA-TV.

WKRG-TV, the CBS affiliate, has a live Doppler radar on digital sub-channel 5.2 and programming from the Retro Television Network (RTV) on digital sub-channel 5.3. On Wednesdays between 9:00 AM and 12:00 PM, the Doppler radar is replaced by educational/informative (E/I) programming produced for stations owned by Media General. WKRG-TV uses an old animated station identification (a pink TV set with the station’s old logo) normally used for Saturday morning programming before each of these E/I programs. I always wanted to watch “Get Smart” again whenever I could get digital TV, but unfortunately RTV lost the rights to the show shortly before my family finally got a digital TV set. I got to know “Unreliable Sources” from RTV very briefly due to my timing of receiving digital TV and the one-hour timeslot of 10:00 PM before it was cancelled. Work is being done to place WKRG-TV’s broadcast antenna on top of the station’s broadcast tower and sometimes the signal is weaker. The result is either a frozen picture or no picture, especially for viewers in the farthest areas of the TV market.

WPMI-TV, the NBC affiliate, continues to broadcast local weather reports and national weather maps with music on digital channel 15.2 after the end of NBC Weather Plus. WPMI-TV was also the only station in the area to return to its former digital channel number (15) after the June 12th deadline for full-power TV stations in the United States. WPMI-TV recently became capable of displaying small weather graphics over high-definition network programs in the 16:9 aspect ratio without causing the programs to appear in the 4:3 aspect ratio. WPMI-TV freezes or gets lost sometimes, but not as frequently as WJTC-TV, WMPV-TV, WSRE-TV, and WFNA-TV.

WEAR-TV, the ABC affiliate in Pensacola, Florida, still has the area’s only local newscasts broadcast in high-definition quality and is the only station broadcasting high-definition syndicated programs in the 16:9 aspect ratio. No matter the picture quality, the only qualities that matter in newscasts are reporting and presentation.

Alabama Public Television (APT) has two digital sub-channels on each of the network’s nine stations. In Mobile, WEIQ-TV has APT IQ (reruns of programs from PBS) on sub-channel 42.2 and Create TV on sub-channel 42.3. Before and after June 12th, APT had problems with aspect ratio for (analog) cable TV viewers, but the problems now appear to be resolved and programs no longer appear stretched or completely surrounded by darkness.

Digital TV viewers on the Alabama side of the market can now see programming from WSRE-TV, the public TV station from Pensacola, Florida due to the station’s digital transmitter being located in Baldwin County, Alabama. Unlike Alabama Public Television, WSRE-TV airs “Charlie Rose” and has PBS World on digital sub-channel 23.2, WSRE Plus (includes programs from the Florida Knowledge Network and the Florida Channel) on digital sub-channel 23.3, and V-me (programs in Spanish) on digital sub-channel 23.4. WSRE-TV gets lost or frozen sometimes.

WMPV-TV, the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) affiliate, has four digital sub-channels with programming from TBN’s other networks. Digital sub-channel 21.2 has the Church Channel, digital sub-channel 21.3 has JCTV, digital sub-channel 23.4 has Enlace TV, and digital sub-channel 23.5 has Smile of a Child. I usually watch “The Flying House” on sub-channel 23.5 and I haven’t seen “Superbook” in months. WMPV-TV gets lost or frozen sometimes.

WJTC-TV, an independent station, broadcasts college football from the SEC Network in high-definition quality. Sometimes I lose this station whenever I attempt to get all available stations in Mobile.

Based on postings at the AVS Forum, WFGX-TV in Fort Walton Beach, Florida will soon be broadcasting from a new transmitter in Baldwin County, Alabama. Even though WFGX-TV is part of the same market as Mobile, the station’s programming was never seen here due to the distance of its current transmitter in Fort Walton Beach until American Telephone and Telegraph’s (AT&T) U-verse digital cable TV service started providing the station late this past summer. WFGX-TV is co-owned with WEAR-TV and has programming from MyNetworkTV and ThisTV. Some of WFGX-TV’s programming used to air on WEAR-TV such as “The Jerry Springer Show”, “The Maury Povich Show”, and the weekday version of “Inside Edition”.

The newest station in the area is WDPM-TV, which has been broadcasting only in digital since the day it went on the air early this year. All of its programming is provided by Daystar. WDPM-TV’s virtual channel number is 4.1 and its digital channel number is 23, which is also WSRE-TV’s virtual channel number. As a result, my digital TV converter under the brand name Magnavox cannot scan for WSRE-TV and every time I put in the number 23, the channel changes to 4.1 for WDPM-TV. I don't really stay to watch this station.

 

[tripinva]

The newest station in the area is WDPM-TV, which has been broadcasting only in digital since the day it went on the air early this year. All of its programming is provided by Daystar. WDPM-TV’s virtual channel number is 4.1 and its digital channel number is 23, which is also WSRE-TV’s virtual channel number. As a result, my digital TV converter under the brand name Magnavox cannot scan for WSRE-TV and every time I put in the number 23, the channel changes to 4.1 for WDPM-TV. I don't really stay to watch this station.

Does putting in 31 give you WSRE?

- Trip

 

[landtuna]

But you don't need to explain it to "aging aunt Emma," any more than you need to explain the intricacies of IP addressing and networking to her before she can get her e-mail. <snip>

Virtually every family relative in my household opted to subscribe to cable/satellite rather than try to figure out the intricacies of DTV. This despite lengthy explanations like the one you posted.

After 60 years of analog TV they could not understand why they would need to scan and re-scan to equate virtual channels (which no one understood) to RF channels. They would see news of new channels coming on-line but could not figure out why their set would not receive them. Likewise, when some channels switched RF they lost the old channel without explanation.

They were universally confused by all the "digital" and "HD" claims. Of everyone who first tried DTV I am the only one left. Most spent time and money trying to get their signals at least as good as the old analog but for one reason or another could not. Interestingly, neither can I and I have considerably more experience with radio and TV than any of them.

Since most are at least 70 or older most can not tell the difference between analog and digital video and don't tend to have surround sound systems connected to their TV's. Nor do they tend to watch programs which tend to be enhanced by digital video. And, obviously, they are not likely to hop up on the roof to install outdoor antennas.

The biggest beneficiary of DTV it seems are the cable and satellite companies who gained a significant number of new subscribers. Perhaps that was the idea all along.

BTW, most of these relatives would also fall into the same category dealing with the Internet as well. Although a majority of them own computers most are not capable of diagnosing or repairing their connection and/or software should anything whiz out of the ordinary. It is also interesting to note that of the younger set I'm familiar with most are computer literate but don't watch TV at all. If it's not on DVD they don't care.

 

[w9wi]

I have TSReader data for KGPE on RabbitEars and I don't see anything obviously wrong with it. Not that it shows absolutely everything, but it's a start.

Is it possible their VCT is on an unusual PID? (or is not being announced in the MGT, so some receivers are accurately guessing where it is and others aren't bothering to try?)

Can you tell what the repetition rate is?

 

[JMWillkie]

"Is it possible their VCT is on an unusual PID? (or is not being announced in the MGT, so some receivers are accurately guessing where it is and others aren't bothering to try?)

Can you tell what the repetition rate is?"

Repetition rate in this context is largely irrelevant -- that just determines how long until the channel information appears after tuning in. Unless the rate is measured in minutes and not seconds.

However, A/65 vcts can only appear on pid 8187/0x1FFB. If they are anywhere else, NO TELEVISION SET will see them. It's required for them to be listed in the MGT, but as a practical matter, that is largely a non-issue, since the only information provided is the total size of the VCT, which is only important when vcts are in multiple sections.

Best Regards;

John Willkie EtherGuide Systems (a developer and vendor of PSIP generators)

 

[tripinva]

It's on 0x1ffb.

- Trip

 

[Mario500]

The newest station in the area is WDPM-TV, which has been broadcasting only in digital since the day it went on the air early this year. All of its programming is provided by Daystar. WDPM-TV’s virtual channel number is 4.1 and its digital channel number is 23, which is also WSRE-TV’s virtual channel number. As a result, my digital TV converter under the brand name Magnavox cannot scan for WSRE-TV and every time I put in the number 23, the channel changes to 4.1 for WDPM-TV. I don't really stay to watch this station.

Does putting in 31 give you WSRE?

- Trip

I get the station this way on another TV set with a digital TV converter under the brand name of Zenith, but not on the other set. It's probably a reception issue.

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

Since no one has spoken up yet from the Dallas/Fort Worth area, I'll not that OTA DTV is working out well here...especially for those of us with outdoor antennas. At roughly 35 miles from the Cedar Hill tower farm, the digital transition has been almost invisible to me, since I'd been primarily watching the digital signals for several years. Even the digital LPTVs come in reliably.

Here's another report from D/FW:

I'm further out from Cedar Hill (at 41 miles) in Collin County. Using a Terk HDTVo in the attic of a single story home feeding a Toshiba 37-inch LCD, absolutely everything comes in 5 by 5. Notably the 300-watter on RF-3 is just fine all of the time. Every single digital LPTV is solid, including 8,000 watts from K31GL which I enjoy for AMG-TV on 31-4.

I've also gained KXII/12, some 60 miles away to the north transmitting from Madill, OK, which was only an occasional visitor at my place when it was NTSC. That comes in handy for ``Frazier'' at 21:30 nightly on 12-3. I also like that KXII doesn't break away for local news during CBS (12-1) and Fox (12-3) NFL halftime shows.

The only glitch is that KFWD/52 (on RF-9 with 13 kW) vanishes entirely during periods of severe tropo when the Waco market stations start pouring in. KCEN from Waco/Temple is also on RF-9 and doubtlessly interferes with KFWD to the extent that neither can be captured.

Otherwise, DTV is big win for me with more choices and better PQ than analog.