How's OTA DTV working out for YOU?

[w9wi]

Repetition rate in this context is largely irrelevant -- that just determines how long until the channel information appears after tuning in. Unless the rate is measured in minutes and not seconds.

That's my point - is it somehow possible the repetition rate is in the order of minutes? (maybe someone misinterpreted the units when programming the PSIP generator?)

However, A/65 vcts can only appear on pid 8187/0x1FFB. If they are anywhere else, NO TELEVISION SET will see them. It's required for them to be listed in the MGT, but as a practical matter, that is largely a non-issue, since the only information provided is the total size of the VCT, which is only important when vcts are in multiple sections.

That'll teach me to type without looking up the references... (having dialup it's not quite as fast as it should be..)

I wonder what would happen in the typical receiver if the PMT were missing? Or the PAT missing or not pointing at the right PID for the PMT? Might some receivers successfully guess the ES PIDs from the program numbers in the VCTs?

(but the TSReader caps on KGPE from Trip's site look good from here)

 

[kenrayc]

Repetition rate in this context is largely irrelevant -- that just determines how long until the channel information appears after tuning in. Unless the rate is measured in minutes and not seconds.

That's my point - is it somehow possible the repetition rate is in the order of minutes? (maybe someone misinterpreted the units when programming the PSIP generator?)

However, A/65 vcts can only appear on pid 8187/0x1FFB. If they are anywhere else, NO TELEVISION SET will see them. It's required for them to be listed in the MGT, but as a practical matter, that is largely a non-issue, since the only information provided is the total size of the VCT, which is only important when vcts are in multiple sections.

That'll teach me to type without looking up the references... (having dialup it's not quite as fast as it should be..)

I wonder what would happen in the typical receiver if the PMT were missing? Or the PAT missing or not pointing at the right PID for the PMT? Might some receivers successfully guess the ES PIDs from the program numbers in the VCTs?

(but the TSReader caps on KGPE from Trip's site look good from here)

I left the box on all night on KGPE 34.3 and still no EPG, no Call letters and no virtual channel 47.1. Did another rescan and still nothing ,picked a good time to rescan ,must be Tropo conditions my box just loaded up all UHF main stations from Bakersfield (over 100 miles away) KGET NBC 17.1 sub stations 17.2 CW, 17.3 Telemundo, KUVI MNT 45.1, KABE 39.1Univision,and KBTF 31.1 Telefutura, but the only VHF KERO (10) 23.1 still doesn't come in, they need to go back to RF 23. I always had, mentioned in an earlier post KBAK CBS 29 and KBFX 58.2.
As mention before on my other 2 sets, the Zenith Box, and the HDTV tuner have no problem with KGPE, its only th Digitalstream box that can't read KGPEs info.

 

[Chad-Stevens]

I gained This (WUOA 23/RF 6) and RTV (WVTM 13.2).

Also gained Untamed Sports (WIAT 42.2) which is of little use to me except that CBS42.2 also preempts for high school sports.

Also gained some weather maps and audio only channels.

However, ABC is non-existent on the bedroom TV (building interior) and only slightly better on the main set (by a window). WCFT relocating from RF 5 to RF 33 hasn't helped much either.

-----

My in-laws kept all but one of their locals, losing WRJM 67/RF 48 which had been My but is now some sort of music video service. For all intents and purposes, they've lost NBC (WSFA 12) which shows a full strength signal on the meter but is constantly pixelating and breaking up to the point of being unwatchable.

 

[alg2468]

Received from the Pawtucket/East Providence area
:
STATION CH DTV CH LOCATION NET SIGNAL

WGBH 2.1 19 BOSTON, MA PBS STRONG
WGBH 2.2 19 BOSTON, MA PBS STRONG
WBZ 4.1 30 BOSTON, MA CBS STRONG
WCVB 5.1 20 BOSTON, MA ABC STRONG
WLNE 6.1 49 PROVIDENCE, RI ABC STRONG
WHDH 7.1 42 BOSTON, MA NBC STRONG
WHDH 7.2 42 BOSTON, MA THIS TV STRONG
WJAR 10.1 51 PROVIDENCE, RI NBC STRONG
WJAR 10.2 51 PROVIDENCE, RI RTV STRONG
WPRI 12.1 13 PROVIDENCE, RI CBS STRONG
WFXT 25.1 31 BOSTON, MA FOX STRONG
WUNI 27.1 29 WORCESTER, MA UNI GOOD
WUNI 27.2 29 WORCESTER, MA UNI GOOD
WLWC 28.1 22 NEW BEDFORD, MA CW GOOD
WSBE 36.1 21 PROVIDENCE, RI PBS STRONG
WSBE 36.2 21 PROVIDENCE, RI PBS LEARN STRONG
WSBK 38.1 39 BOSTON, MA IND GOOD.
WGBX 44.1 43 BOSTON, MA PBS STRONG
WGBX 44.2 43 BOSTON, MA PBS WORLD STRONG
WGBX 44.3 43 BOSTON, MA PBS CREATESTRONG
WGBX 44.4 43 BOSTON, MA PBS KIDS STRONG
WWDP 46.1 10 NORWELL, MA SHOPNBC FAIR
WYDN 48.1 47 WORCESTER, MA DAYSTAR WEAK
WLVI 56.1 41 BOSTON, MA CW STRONG
WMFP 62.1 18 BOSTON, MA RTV WEAK
WMFP 62.2 18 BOSTON, MA RTV WEAK
WNAC 64.1 12 PROVIDENCE, RI FOX STRONG
WNAC 64.2 12 PROVIDENCE, RI MYTV STRONG
WUTF 66.1 27 MARLBORO, MA TF GOOD
WBPX 68.1 32 BOSTON, MA ION GOOD
WBPX 68.2 32 BOSTON, MA QUBE GOOD
WBPX 68.3 32 BOSTON, MA LIFE GOOD
WBPX 68.4 32 BOSTON, MA WORSHIP GOOD
WPXQ 69.1 17 BLOCK ISLAND, RI ION GOOD
WPXQ 69.2 17 BLOCK ISLAND, RI QUBE GOOD
WPXQ 69.3 17 BLOCK ISLAND, RI LIFE GOOD
WPXQ 69.4 17 BLOCK ISLAND, RI WORSHIP GOOD

The Boston stations Needham antennas are about 30 miles NE, most stations in Providence have their transmitters in Rehoboth, MA about 4 miles E, and most stations in Worcester/Marlboro have their transmitters about 30 miles to the NW.

 

[JMWillkie]

"That's my point - is it somehow possible the repetition rate is in the order of minutes? (maybe someone misinterpreted the units when programming the PSIP generator?)"

Anything is possible, but it's highly unlikely that any vendor of psip generators would permit a user to set any value that exceeds the maximum permitted value. I am told that I am the only vendor that permits setting repetition rates at lower values than permitted by the standard.

In another posting on this thread, I saw a poster saying that he could watch one station on one unit, but not on another, and attributed this to a reception issue.

In my experience, if one is using an external antenna, there are only two reasons that one unit will not receive one station and another will. They are:
1. too much power (work-around; put a 3db pad in the lead in) and
2. bad tsid values or missing psip. The most likely culprit is a mismatch between the tsid in the Program Association Table header, and the tsid in the TVCT header. Unfortunately, this is essentially impossible to diagnose with ts_reader; it only gives you the channel_tsid values in the TVCT entries, not the TVCT header tsid value itself. Not having PSIP will cause some receivers to ignore a channel, but not others. (Government cheese box stbs seem to be quite resilient.)

Zenith units -- most of them -- have issues with caption service descriptors, including mismatches between the CSD and the captioning stream, badly formed descriptors, and if the csd location in the PMT (Program Map Table) is wrong.

There are many non-compliant PSIP generators on the market and in use. NOne are made by me.

Best Regards;

John Willkie EtherGuideSystems.com

 

[vchimpanzee]

I have six combination TV/VCRs. On three, the VCRs are broken. On one of those, I use TiVo because the man from Radio Shack told me I could set it to record digital channels. Unfortunately, as cheap as it was (and maybe this is why) it won't work for over-the-air TV. I went ahead and got cable, and it's a good thing, because that's the only way any of the three remaining TV/VCRs can tape specific channels--and with the distance to some stations I wouldn't get a reliable signal without spending a lot for an outdoor antenna. Plus I mostly use TiVo to tape. But only one of those TV/VCRs is hooked up to cable, and one is receiving digital TV, so I keep it on the channel for "Simpsons" reruns. One of the broken ones is set on the digital channel for "Roy's Folks", where a TV reporter visits people with interesting talents or hobbies. Yes, I could change TVs, but it's so much trouble. These two channels are not on my cable system since I live where the stations considered to be in my TV market (Charlotte, NC) are actually farther away, in many cases, than the stations I am closer to which aren't in my market.

For "The Simpsons" I have a round Philips indoor antenna with 45 dB sitting on the table facing the five closest Greensboro-area stations, which are not on my cable system except for the CBS affiliate (I have two of those). On Feb. 21 (it was hard to figure out everything and I was scared of what would happen), at first I couldn't get anything but "No Signal", but it's a mystery why. I messed up entering the channel number and saw the CW station perfectly. I picked up four stations (CW, My Network, Fox and ABC) plus some subchannels (and three Charlotte stations too). Most of these stations didn't have subchannels. I was especially happy about the ABC station because it was unwatchable half the time in analog, before moving to a new tower. Charlotte's ABC station sometimes pre-empts shows, and they go all-weather in bad weather situations; the other one has no news department.

I called the CBS station and they said type in their actual channel, and that's still how I get there. I usually don't watch it on digital TV since I don't want to risk losing "The Simpsons". It is actually the best station of all the ones I get, which is ironic considering the converter box couldn't find it the first time.

Charlotte's ABC affiliate threatened to leave cable if their demands weren't met. I watched the other one for months with no problems. Pixilation with "The Simpsons" was rare, but storms caused trouble. On a windy day the CW station was unwatchable and I eventually gave up on it.

I had to get a new (used) TV/VCR and moving the box caused problems with the "Simpsons" station (I should add that in February, no Charlotte station aired reruns of the show, but now one does--the same few over and over) and even when that station was reliable, the ABC station was not. It was for most of one hour as I watched a season premiere I couldn't tape. Perhaps the wire was just coming loose from the converter box, something that never happened in the first seven months. Rain or wind usually messes up "The Simpsons". It could just be the wire coming loose. I get snow now with the new TV/VCR for some reason, but it clears up when I fix the other wire. Amazingly, nothing EVER happens to that CBS affiliate. That new TV also loses channel 3 on occasion and I have to add it back.

 

[vchimpanzee]

This site is messed up. They need to fix the problem with long posts. Are they trying to discourage them? I was editing and a whole paragraph disappeared!

I also said that on June 14 I hooked up converter box no.2 and only picked up that CBS affiliate which comes in no matter what. I had a Radio Shack antenna that looks like Wall-E which wasn't as good as the Magnavox one but Sears had only one of those. This one can be turned with a remote, though, and can be set to receive specific channels. I haven't fully tested it. Also, the converter box went out a couple of times (Maganvox wouldn't take responsibility). But rescanning when that happened gave me more channels, almost none reliable. I did not pick up Roy's station because his station went VHF, but after complaints it is back on UHF. I can often pick it up reliably if I'm not in the room. If I'm in the room I have to back away from the TV; getting close when I turn it on or off messes it up. Sometimes I am in another room listening for Roy's theme music and there are no problems. And sometimes the sound comes and goes.

I mostly watch cable. The way the antenna is positioned with converter box no. 1, those Charlotte stations I picked up in February aren't that reliable; better to keep the antenna where it is. The Charlotte ABC station I lost on June 14 but I don't know why. The Fox station has pixilation problems but it has a weather subchannel which is useful. I have to be careful where I stand while watching it. The PBS station is unreliable after all.

 

[landtuna]

This site is messed up. They need to fix the problem with long posts. Are they trying to discourage them? I was editing and a whole paragraph disappeared!

I've posted a few long ones and not had a problem but here is something you may want to consider....

Create your post in Notepad (or whatever plain text editor you prefer). After your post is complete (assuming you are using a Windows machine) highlight the post and 'copy' (press cntrl and the 'c' key simultaneously). Then go to the R-I board post you wish to add to and paste your message (press cntrl and 'v' simultaneously). Then press the post button normally.

 

[TexasTom]

Virtually every family relative in my household opted to subscribe to cable/satellite rather than try to figure out the intricacies of DTV. This despite lengthy explanations like the one you posted.

After 60 years of analog TV they could not understand why they would need to scan and re-scan to equate virtual channels (which no one understood) to RF channels. They would see news of new channels coming on-line but could not figure out why their set would not receive them. Likewise, when some channels switched RF they lost the old channel without explanation.

I wonder if part of the problem could be too much information?

It might be easier to just tell folks that if they need to find a new station or lose an existing station, they just need to hit the re-scan button on their TV or converter box. And don't bother to explain why, other than to say that it tells the tuner to go out and find all the stations it can receive. As for "virtual channels" -- don't even use the term with those who aren't hard core video/broadcast geeks, because it will just confuse most people.

In other words, tell the "how", but skip the "why"...

 

[landtuna]

As for "virtual channels" -- don't even use the term with those who aren't hard core video/broadcast geeks, because it will just confuse most people.

Tried that.....until one of the more informed relatives couldn't understand why the "VHF" virtual stations wouldn't come in on dipoles. <sigh!>

 

[dave73]

I was checking out TV sets at Best Buy to see what my next TV might be. I tried a Samsung TV & a Toshiba TV. The Best Buy I was at has an outdoor antenna, and can get OTA reception. Between the 2 TV's I was able to test, the Toshiba TV didn't pickup WXFT PSIP 60.1, struggled to keep WTTW PSIP 11.1 - 11.4 in. Didn't pickup either of WLS-TV's 2 channel: RF 7 or 44 (PSIP 7.1 - 7.3), and WYIN-DT 17 (this one shouldn't have been a problem, as this station is only 10-15 miles from the tower). And lastly, WPWR-TV on the Toshiba didn't pickup the PSIP channel, and it went by the RF channel instead, of 51.1. The Samsung TV seemed to pickup the channels better. As for both TV's, both took longer to scan for channels, as it scanned for analog channels 1st, then for digital channels. My Magnavox DTV box took less time to scan for channels. I will have to check out other TV's as well. With both TV's, if I type in 27.1, it reverts to 23.1. So this is something that WCIU did on purpose. Based on info I found on rabbitears.info, here's what it lists for WCIU:http://www.rabbitears.info/search.php?request=network_search&network=Independent Look for Chicago, & click WCIU.

Display
Channel Digital
Channel Video Audio Call Sign Network/Programming Nickname Notes Print
23-1 27.9 480i DD2.0 [This subchannel transmits secondary audio.] MeTV Classic Shows "Me TV"
26-1 27.3 720p DD5.1 WCIU-HD Independent "The U"
26-2 27.4 480i DD2.0 MeTV Classic Shows "Me TV" (WWME-CA) (S/B WWME-LD)
26-3 27.5 480i DD2.0 MeToo Classic Shows "Me Too" (WMEU-CA)
26-4 27.6 480i DD2.0 THIS This TV
26-6 27.8 480i DD2.0 FBT Ethnic "FBT"
48-1 27.16 480i DD2.0 MeToo Classic Shows "Me Too"


It doesn't matter how I type 27.XXX (any numbers) it reverts to PSIP 23.XXX. If WCIU would eliminate the duplicate PSIP's of 23.1 & 48.1, it would likely popup correctly.

Another thing, I believe part of the problem with DTV might not necesarily be the fault of the TV stations. They were initially. With the problems I had with a Toshiba TV set that Best Buy had out on display, that I believe the ATSC tuner was crappy on that TV. I don't believe it was Best Buy's antenna or coax, as it picked up any analog translator & LPTV station that it picked up, including WWME-CA, which simulcasts WCIU, WMEU-CA, a translator from Gary & Valparaiso via LeSea's World Harvest Network, WEDE-CA (never got that at home), and 2 other translators that had weak reception. I'll be checking out other TV's before I decide what my next TV will be. So far, my Magnavox DTV box has the better reception.

 

[w9wi]

Virtually every family relative in my household opted to subscribe to cable/satellite rather than try to figure out the intricacies of DTV. This despite lengthy explanations like the one you posted.

After 60 years of analog TV they could not understand why they would need to scan and re-scan to equate virtual channels (which no one understood) to RF channels. They would see news of new channels coming on-line but could not figure out why their set would not receive them. Likewise, when some channels switched RF they lost the old channel without explanation.

I wonder if part of the problem could be too much information?

It might be easier to just tell folks that if they need to find a new station or lose an existing station, they just need to hit the re-scan button on their TV or converter box. And don't bother to explain why, other than to say that it tells the tuner to go out and find all the stations it can receive. As for "virtual channels" -- don't even use the term with those who aren't hard core video/broadcast geeks, because it will just confuse most people.

In other words, tell the "how", but skip the "why"...

Absolutely.

When dealing with viewer calls/emails, I NEVER tell them our station is on "RF channel 10". I tell them we're on a relatively low frequency (along with channels 5 and 8) that uses the "ears" on their "rabbit ears" antenna. If their antenna *doesn't have "ears"*, then it's not suitable for these three stations and they really need to replace it.

(Unfortunately, there are unscruplous (sp?) vendors selling improper antennas that don't cover all the channels. IMHO this is tantamount to selling a FM radio that can't get any station above 98...)

There is no reason for RF vs. virtual channel confusion. We have been remapping channels since 1945 -- my grandparents weren't tuning to "175.25" to watch TV*, they were tuning to "7". In 1953 you didn't need to know "7" meant "175.25" -- today, you don't need to know "7" means "506.31". In 1953 your TV handled it for you, and it still does today.


* at the time there was only one TV station in town...

 

[landtuna]

There is no reason for RF vs. virtual channel confusion. We have been remapping channels since 1945 -- my grandparents weren't tuning to "175.25" to watch TV*, they were tuning to "7". In 1953 you didn't need to know "7" meant "175.25" -- today, you don't need to know "7" means "506.31". In 1953 your TV handled it for you, and it still does today.

In the "old analog days" the channel number never changed after you brought the set home from the store. There were no scans or re-scans and most "civilians" probably never realized there was an actual radio frequency behind the channel number (even though they would have been accustomed to frequencies when tuning a radio). If a station changed from one channel to another, or a new station came online you merely turned the dial to the new channel and there it was. The most complicated function was setting the pre-sets on the car radio (especially if you liked listening to Arthur Godfrey and your useless teenagers were always resetting the buttons to that darned new rock and roll station).

Your statement "In 1953 your TV handled it for you, and still does today" is accurate only if you have a TV with an ATSC tuner. Should you have an analog set, like virtually all my people, and a converter box then you are introduced to the scan/re-scan function and real/virtual "frequencies".

Adding to the hilarity when I scan, two "channel 10's" come up on different RF's. KTSP actually broadcasts on one but not the other. Seems there is a ghost in the box. My aunt Edna doesn't understand. She also doesn't understand that she can cause the picture to come-in/drop-out by walking anywhere around the room in which her TV sits and not just in front of the antenna like in the "old days". She also doesn't understand why sometimes just the video freezes, sometimes it's just the audio and sometimes the whole picture blacks out. Good thing she isn't strong enough to throw that big glass ashtray at the TV.....or me!

 

[vchimpanzee]

This site is messed up. They need to fix the problem with long posts. Are they trying to discourage them? I was editing and a whole paragraph disappeared!

I've posted a few long ones and not had a problem but here is something you may want to consider....

Create your post in Notepad (or whatever plain text editor you prefer). After your post is complete (assuming you are using a Windows machine) highlight the post and 'copy' (press cntrl and the 'c' key simultaneously). Then go to the R-I board post you wish to add to and paste your message (press cntrl and 'v' simultaneously). Then press the post button normally.

I should try that, thanks. I had to learn this for certain email services. Excite has a great notepad, but if you write an email over a long period of time during which you go to other sites, that's all it will ever be. I put together the text of several newspaper articles so I can print them out without the white space. You can't go back or forward, thereby risking the loss of what you're doing, because it's a pop-up. Hotmail lets me send the completed product (don't attempt to write it in Hotmail), with columns as wide as possible to prevent the white space on the right some email services would give me. Lycos lets me put the finished product (compiled from several Hotmail emails) in the sent folder, though it never gets "sent". I can, however, print out from that folder. On my own computer I can use Yahoo email as a notepad, and it'll save the draft even if the Internet goes out or something (usually).

 

[vchimpanzee]

Virtually every family relative in my household opted to subscribe to cable/satellite rather than try to figure out the intricacies of DTV. This despite lengthy explanations like the one you posted.

After 60 years of analog TV they could not understand why they would need to scan and re-scan to equate virtual channels (which no one understood) to RF channels. They would see news of new channels coming on-line but could not figure out why their set would not receive them. Likewise, when some channels switched RF they lost the old channel without explanation.

I wonder if part of the problem could be too much information?

It might be easier to just tell folks that if they need to find a new station or lose an existing station, they just need to hit the re-scan button on their TV or converter box. And don't bother to explain why, other than to say that it tells the tuner to go out and find all the stations it can receive. As for "virtual channels" -- don't even use the term with those who aren't hard core video/broadcast geeks, because it will just confuse most people.

In other words, tell the "how", but skip the "why"...

I'm afraid to rescan for fear I'll lose channels. I haven't done it with the first box since February. the other box went out several times. Somehow I found out that to get it back, as was the case with the first one when I first tried scanning, I had to turn the box off and turn it back on (though with the first box this also required unplugging, as the tech support person said to do), and then things worked. Rescanning wasn't necessary after all with box number two, but I got so many more channels. Usable signals is another matter entirely.

 

[kenglish]

That's like never looking at the menu again after your first trip to McDonald's. You'll be stuck eating "plain burger with ketchup" for the rest of your life.

 

[vchimpanzee]

That's like never looking at the menu again after your first trip to McDonald's. You'll be stuck eating "plain burger with ketchup" for the rest of your life.

I'm not much better off. If I try to order what I want, they look at me funny because I didn't tell them a number. I don't KNOW what number. I tell them what I want, and then they have to figure out what that is. Both of us got angry in one place, and I got something I didn't want and later found I had overpaid as well. I got the manager to refund the difference.

Looking at the menu won't help me there or at Arby's because I know what I want and it's not there. I describe the sandwich and they either give it to me or else. No numbers because the sandwich isn't up there.

Rescanning the first converter box probably won't help seeing as how I haven't changed anything about the antenna. The only reason I got more channels on the other one is the antenna can be rotated. The other one can't, and if I move it I could lose what i had.

Cable gives me nearly al of what I want.

 

[landtuna]

Rescanning the first converter box probably won't help seeing as how I haven't changed anything about the antenna. The only reason I got more channels on the other one is the antenna can be rotated. The other one can't, and if I move it I could lose what i had.

There are two stations in my market (Phoenix) that will "come-in" and "drop-out" depending upon the time of day. RF 8 and RF 27 - 8 usually fine except in late afternoon/early evening then pixillates badly or disappears completely. 27 is not quite as punctual. There are three different TV's with three different antennas (two set top and one rooftop) and two different brands of converter boxes.

Since 27 just dropped the only program I watched on it I am not going to pursue any further attempt at bringing in that station (it also shows RTV on a sub-channel which I no longer watch either). 8 is our PBS station here and I do watch that one often, if not regularly but I'll have to pass on the afternoon hours.

 

[TheRob]

Kansas City is all UHF, which is a plus. Because my building doesn't allow outdoor antennas, I have more moderate issues than most city-dwelling OTA folks. I still can't receive our NBC affiliate on a regular basis. The reception grade is typically 8/100. I have to move the antenna into obtuse positions for KPXE (Ion) and KMCI (ind). I haven't tried much long distance reception. I decoded KQTV's imprint, but never could get a picture. I haven't received any Topeka stations yet (used to get KTWU and WIBW-TV in analog).

 

[dhett]

Rescanning the first converter box probably won't help seeing as how I haven't changed anything about the antenna. The only reason I got more channels on the other one is the antenna can be rotated. The other one can't, and if I move it I could lose what i had.

There are two stations in my market (Phoenix) that will "come-in" and "drop-out" depending upon the time of day. RF 8 and RF 27 - 8 usually fine except in late afternoon/early evening then pixillates badly or disappears completely. 27 is not quite as punctual. There are three different TV's with three different antennas (two set top and one rooftop) and two different brands of converter boxes.

Since 27 just dropped the only program I watched on it I am not going to pursue any further attempt at bringing in that station (it also shows RTV on a sub-channel which I no longer watch either). 8 is our PBS station here and I do watch that one often, if not regularly but I'll have to pass on the afternoon hours.

There is no RF27 anymore.

I have had the same experience at my location slightly closer to the towers, but haven't been able to check it since KAZT moved from RF27 to RF36. OTOH, I can often get 6 and 18 (RF 30 and 19, respectively) from Tucson on my one TV and always get 4, 6 and 18 (RF 23, 30, 19) and sometimes 46 from Tucson on the other TV. This with just cheap $10 RCA indoor rabbit ears.