I NO LONGER GET "THE POINT"

[louiemanno]

Dudes! Ever hear the Stones song that goes like this: “It’s only rock and roll but I like it”. The key word in that lyric is “only”. Jeez Louise – This is a radio station we’re talking about… not cancer research or mid-east peace.

Being a music snob or any kind of snob is so uncool so non-rock and roll. To be so wounded because your sensibilities have been offended with a “shallow” pop song that is played in the context of a “feature” segment… is well… so shallow. Life is too short to get indignant about every slightly annoying foible. (Yes, I realize that I am guilty of indigence right now… but I earned it… I’m old)

And by the way when a listener is irrevocably pissed off it is perfectly acceptable to present the option of using the radio dial as a means of having shed of the source of said listner’s angst . I mean we’re broadcasters… it’s our duty to point out the obvious.

Don’t be a buzz kill… take a chill pill.

Disclaimer: this winking emoticon has been straggly placed in this posting to soften any perceived edge therein.

Louie

 

[lebba1]

The Point is a well respected and award winning Triple A. The music is very good, the imaging sounds hip, and the announcers are intelligent. Far from amateur. Listen on-line to WRXP in New York or KBCO in Denver and compare.

You might be thinking of NEB’s other station in Mass. The River. I’m told they had a rough time with bad management.

 

[mbamark]

I stumbled thru these postings ..... kinda sounds like my "nephew nick" -- serves sandwiches with "two all beef patties, special sauce" etc.
When the customers started to complain about poor quality cooking, burnt buns, wilty lettuce, stale tomatoes, poor advertising, poor customer service nick and the managers all insisted they couldn't possibly be eating there. "We are a heritage restaurant, with great cooks -- you must be thinking about the other restaurant".

Nope -- sounds like everyone was talking about his restaurant -- and someone just doesn't want to accept the criticism.

It's pretty clear that there are quite a few unhappy listeners. They sure seemed to clearly identify the station. My advice would be to listen to your customers -- stop making excuses (NEVER tell them to shop elswhere or blame another one of your own businesses) ....

But it sure doesn't seem anyone at the Point wants to accept any critique and fix the problems.

What are the ratings of The Point in Burlington???? That might shed light on this "discussion"

 

[ratingsgeek]

What are the ratings of The Point in Burlington???? That might shed light on this "discussion"

WNCS hangs around 9th or 10th in Burlington with around a 2 or 3 share, though to be fair, Burlington isn't their "home" market. In that market--Montpelier--they were 8th the last book I saw about a year ago (Arbitron won't let RI, R&R or AA publish the numbers anymore because Northeast and others don't subscribe--and their desperate salespeople would actually use the 12+ numbers on the street). It wouldn't be a huge surprise, though, if they scored much better than that in their 35-54 core. Maybe 4th or 5th in both markets? Truth is, the WNCS signal--as great as it is--isn't quite as great as they think it is, and they leave big chunks of the Burlington-Plattsburgh market unserved, or at least with a signal so weak it can't be heard inside buildings (like, at work, for instance--where most radio listening happens). If they had any brains, they'd use a couple of those zero-share FM sticks over there to repeat 104.7 and rack up the kind of ratings you'd think a decent Triple A should score in a granola-crunching university-town like Burlington. But the operable phrase in that sentence is "If they had any brains," so don't hold your breath.

 

[MassMusicMan]

great as it is--isn't quite as great as they think it is, and they leave big chunks of the Burlington-Plattsburgh market unserved, or at least with a signal so weak it can't be heard inside buildings (like, at work, for instance--where most radio listening happens).

It's 2008. They stream.

If I were a radio sales guy, I'd throw Arbitron in the garbage, and show prospective advertisers the number of people who listen to the stream. This is especially important in a market that is a topographical fustercluck such as B-P.

 

[ratingsgeek]

It's 2008. They stream.

If I were a radio sales guy, I'd throw Arbitron in the garbage, and show prospective advertisers the number of people who listen to the stream. This is especially important in a market that is a topographical fustercluck such as B-P.

You, too, can become a radio sales guy. Give 'em a call tomorrow and tell 'em you don't need no stinking Arbitron. If you're as good as you think, you should be able to knock out 1200 units a month at $50 apiece. That's $720,000 a year, and at 15 percent you'll make $108,000. If you need to make more than that, just step it up and sell more. It's really that easy. Life is great for great salespeople. And if you are so blessed, it is a shame that you've denied the industry your talents, thus far. Go for it!

 

[MassMusicMan]

How long have you worked for Arbitron?

 

[nhradiochild]

Will,

I've got to say I like your style, but it doesn't seem terribly realistic. Just because the Arby's are fooked up doesn't mean that people don't believe them. It takes quite a shepherd to lure sheep away from what looks like greener pastures.

Secondly, while the internet streaming evaluation is a great idea in theory, the numbers have to be there not only in total audience, but broken down into target audience groups so that advertisers would be able to evaluate if their advertising dollar is best spent with this particular audience. Not sure if this is already being done, (although I concede it is possible, as long as you can keep your subscribers honest... that being said, I guess they'd be no more dishonest than filling out an Arb diary anyway). Then you have to have convincing numbers. Having 100-200 listeners at any given time seems impressive to us, but perhaps not to the advertiser of which you are trying to snag $1000s of dollars from.

Just a thought. Know that the premise isn't faulty, it's all how you can sell it, and to me it seems there's a lot of conditioning to undo to make it happen.

 

[ratingsgeek]

How long have you worked for Arbitron?

LOL!!! I've never worked for Arbitron--in fact, they're not terribly happy with me right now since I just cancelled the Arbitron subscription for one of our stations in a market where we were the last subscribers standing. I have worked in radio for 40+ years, though, and understand that Northeast Broadcasting has left millions of dollars on the table over the years by not being able to effectively document the WNCS audience--and by not maximizing the format's potential in the Burlington market. As I mentioned in the previous post, NEB has had several other FM signals around B-P for quite a few years that could be much better utilized by simulcasting The Point. Triple A reaches the best-educated and highest-earning audience among all commercial radio formats and it's a great cultural match for the Vermont marketplace.

Yes, it is 2008, and streaming is a growing delivery method for radio/audio. But, as yet, its overall reach is still way behind old fashioned radio. But your point (sorry) is well taken. Many, many direct retailers and a few agency buyers would be much more impressed with online usage reports than with Arbitron reports.

But, look, I was being serious about going into radio sales. I don't know what you do for a living. Maybe you inherited a pile of cash and don't need to work. But if your passion for radio is roughly equivalent to the intensity for the subject that you demonstrate on this board, you should give it real consideration. And, as noted above, the earnings can be very serious.

 

[MassMusicMan]

I have worked in radio for 40+ years, though, and understand that Northeast Broadcasting has left millions of dollars on the table over the years by not being able to effectively document the WNCS audience

Have they? The ratings cost, what, $30,000 a year? When I worked at Triple X, a non-subscriber for at least a decade, the sales department charged $40 for a :60. If they paid for the numbers, by my math, they'd have to sell 750 units to break even on the investment. I can't imagine that the price for either the ratings or for the spots would be that much different for Northeast/WNCS.

As I mentioned in the previous post, NEB has had several other FM signals around B-P for quite a few years that could be much better utilized by simulcasting The Point. Triple A reaches the best-educated and highest-earning audience among all commercial radio formats and it's a great cultural match for the Vermont marketplace.

It does, and I like your utopian view of Vermont. But for every cultured person in Vermont (people who exist everywhere in the Northeast, BTW), there's plenty of low-income people. Vermont is the credit card debt capital of America. It's not Westchester County. The Point has its niche, but being a mainstream radio station ain't it. They were better 10 years ago.

As for "cultural match", if we didn't have 3 colleges in Burlington and Massholes who fall in love with the place and stick around, WNCS wouldn't exist.

Yes, it is 2008, and streaming is a growing delivery method for radio/audio. But, as yet, its overall reach is still way behind old fashioned radio. But your point (sorry) is well taken. Many, many direct retailers and a few agency buyers would be much more impressed with online usage reports than with Arbitron reports.

Many people I know in Boston with office jobs tell me that they don't use a receiver to listen to Boston stations in the office, rather relying on streams to hear WEEI and Jam'n. Best step for Arbitron to take would be to poll diarykeepers on what medium they use to hear radio at work. An even better step would be to implement technology that enabled station managers to check the IP's of stream users for demographic info, but I don't see that realistically happening. Pandora's box there...

But, look, I was being serious about going into radio sales. I don't know what you do for a living. Maybe you inherited a pile of cash and don't need to work. But if your passion for radio is roughly equivalent to the intensity for the subject that you demonstrate on this board, you should give it real consideration. And, as noted above, the earnings can be very serious.

I've tried the radio game. I've found that most radio people are liars, cheap, and lack professional tact. I receive much better compensation in my current position. It's funny how much one can make when their income ties in to beer/liquor sales.

 

[StudioChuck]

I believe Northeast (WNCS/MP103) Subscribes to Arbitron. When Arbitron tried releasing the 12+ numbers to the public minus the stations that didn't subscribe, the only major group in the Market that didn't subscribe was WXXX/WVMT.

Criticism is tough for most radio people to take. Their stations become like their children. Think about it, you may know your child is ugly and slow, but you would hate for "Catie's Cousin" to say it to your face.

 

[jackandcoke]

I have worked in radio for 40+ years, though, and understand that Northeast Broadcasting has left millions of dollars on the table over the years by not being able to effectively document the WNCS audience

Have they? The ratings cost, what, $30,000 a year? When I worked at Triple X, a non-subscriber for at least a decade, the sales department charged $40 for a :60. If they paid for the numbers, by my math, they'd have to sell 750 units to break even on the investment. I can't imagine that the price for either the ratings or for the spots would be that much different for Northeast/WNCS.

As I mentioned in the previous post, NEB has had several other FM signals around B-P for quite a few years that could be much better utilized by simulcasting The Point. Triple A reaches the best-educated and highest-earning audience among all commercial radio formats and it's a great cultural match for the Vermont marketplace.

It does, and I like your utopian view of Vermont. But for every cultured person in Vermont (people who exist everywhere in the Northeast, BTW), there's plenty of low-income people. Vermont is the credit card debt capital of America. It's not Westchester County. The Point has its niche, but being a mainstream radio station ain't it. They were better 10 years ago.

As for "cultural match", if we didn't have 3 colleges in Burlington and Massholes who fall in love with the place and stick around, WNCS wouldn't exist.

Yes, it is 2008, and streaming is a growing delivery method for radio/audio. But, as yet, its overall reach is still way behind old fashioned radio. But your point (sorry) is well taken. Many, many direct retailers and a few agency buyers would be much more impressed with online usage reports than with Arbitron reports.

Many people I know in Boston with office jobs tell me that they don't use a receiver to listen to Boston stations in the office, rather relying on streams to hear WEEI and Jam'n. Best step for Arbitron to take would be to poll diarykeepers on what medium they use to hear radio at work. An even better step would be to implement technology that enabled station managers to check the IP's of stream users for demographic info, but I don't see that realistically happening. Pandora's box there...

But, look, I was being serious about going into radio sales. I don't know what you do for a living. Maybe you inherited a pile of cash and don't need to work. But if your passion for radio is roughly equivalent to the intensity for the subject that you demonstrate on this board, you should give it real consideration. And, as noted above, the earnings can be very serious.

I've tried the radio game. I've found that most radio people are liars, cheap, and lack professional tact. I receive much better compensation in my current position. It's funny how much one can make when their income ties in to beer/liquor sales.

Couple of contributions.

The Point may have been better ten years ago. But in the grand scheme of things, the current version is better than just having one more standard issue country or AC or classic rocker. Most markets in America don't have a Triple A of any kind, so even an imperfect one beats having a third or fourth station playing the latest Taylor Swift tune. Triple A, like Progressive Rock back in the day, is a format that is particularly susceptible to being over-critiqued, because every listener who considers himself/herself a rock music aficionado wants to program the thing to their personal tastes. (Though 99 percent of them want to do it from the comfort of their job in liquor sales).

The typical mature radio station sells somewhere around 50,000 units of advertising a year. In that context, a cost of 750 units (or 1.5 percent of income) is fairly small for research enabling a broadcaster to internally gauge how their program offerings are being received and to externally tell their story to prospective clients.

The top tier of Burlington radio salespeople are no doubt earning annual compensation in excess of $100,000, and the average salesperson is likely in the $50,000 range. By comparison, average annual earnings nationally for all jobs is around $37,000. This is sometimes a shock to the jock who has been working twenty years to get up to $30,000, but it is the way things are.

 

[MassMusicMan]

(Though 99 percent of them want to do it from the comfort of their job in liquor sales).

It should be noted that I don't directly sell liquor. I host trivia nights at bars. The more customers that come in (i.e. liquor sales), the more we bill the bar, and the more money I make. I made $155 last night for 3 hours of work hosting the biggest trivia night in Boston. Not many radio jobs pay that well.

The typical mature radio station sells somewhere around 50,000 units of advertising a year. In that context, a cost of 750 units (or 1.5 percent of income) is fairly small for research enabling a broadcaster to internally gauge how their program offerings are being received and to externally tell their story to prospective clients.

50,000? Really? I've heard some sparse stopsets on Burlington stations.

The top tier of Burlington radio salespeople are no doubt earning annual compensation in excess of $100,000, and the average salesperson is likely in the $50,000 range. By comparison, average annual earnings nationally for all jobs is around $37,000. This is sometimes a shock to the jock who has been working twenty years to get up to $30,000, but it is the way things are.

And the reason why the business is a joke. I'm all for the person out on the street selling the spots making more than the jocks, but the notion that an AE should make twice as much as the air talent that brings listeners to the station is obscene.

 

[amfmxm]

(Though 99 percent of them want to do it from the comfort of their job in liquor sales).

It should be noted that I don't directly sell liquor. I host trivia nights at bars. The more customers that come in (i.e. liquor sales), the more we bill the bar, and the more money I make. I made $155 last night for 3 hours of work hosting the biggest trivia night in Boston. Not many radio jobs pay that well.

The typical mature radio station sells somewhere around 50,000 units of advertising a year. In that context, a cost of 750 units (or 1.5 percent of income) is fairly small for research enabling a broadcaster to internally gauge how their program offerings are being received and to externally tell their story to prospective clients.

50,000? Really? I've heard some sparse stopsets on Burlington stations.

The top tier of Burlington radio salespeople are no doubt earning annual compensation in excess of $100,000, and the average salesperson is likely in the $50,000 range. By comparison, average annual earnings nationally for all jobs is around $37,000. This is sometimes a shock to the jock who has been working twenty years to get up to $30,000, but it is the way things are.

And the reason why the business is a joke. I'm all for the person out on the street selling the spots making more than the jocks, but the notion that an AE should make twice as much as the air talent that brings listeners to the station is obscene.

A. Star air talents in your market (Boston) are making a whole lot more than $155 for a 3-hour shift. That's like someone in Brighton saying they wouldn't want to be a pro baseball player because they're making more stocking shelves at Whole Foods than the guys playing for the Lowell Spinners. How you doin' compared to the Red Sox?

B. 50,000 units a year is about 9 spots an hour, Mon-Sat 6AM-Mid.

C. The differential in compensation between sales positions and programming positions has a lot to do with supply and demand--everybody wants to be a jock, and every one of them will work cheaper than you. But it also has a lot to do with busting your butt. The sales people who earn $50K or $80K or $100K selling radio in Burlington are people who work their asses off every day. Just remember, they don't start out making more than the jocks--they start out making a lot less. They EARN the difference by going out and making it happen. BTW, salespeople are ordinarily the highest paid employees in any industry, not just radio.

 

[rockcaptain]

BTW, salespeople are ordinarily the highest paid employees in any industry, not just radio.

And often times great salepeople make more than their managers.

 

[MassMusicMan]

A. Star air talents in your market (Boston) are making a whole lot more than $155 for a 3-hour shift. That's like someone in Brighton saying they wouldn't want to be a pro baseball player because they're making more stocking shelves at Whole Foods than the guys playing for the Lowell Spinners. How you doin' compared to the Red Sox?

You're right about the compensation of Boston jocks, but that doesn't apply to me. I've never been on-air. I can't see myself doing on-air work for a Boston station anytime soon.

B. 50,000 units a year is about 9 spots an hour, Mon-Sat 6AM-Mid.

Good math. I'd figure there'd be more in PM drive than in middays, etc, but I'll take your word for it.

C. The differential in compensation between sales positions and programming positions has a lot to do with supply and demand--everybody wants to be a jock, and every one of them will work cheaper than you.

I took Jordan Rich's VO class a few years ago. One of the first things he imparted upon me was "take yourself seriously as a professional and don't work for cheap." Most jocks I hear read index cards. I write trivia questions. What I talk about is far more interesting than much of what I hear on the radio. There's a reason why somebody "enters themselves" for a $25,000 tag (i.e., salary).

Personally, I have a price. $8/hr for an entry level job ain't it. It was in high school when I was a stupid kid working for the X who didn't know any better. If somebody wants to work for that cheap, God bless 'em. I compare the job market to horse racing. A horse that runs for a $50,000 claiming tag is that much better than one that's entered for $25,000. Radio jobs are the same.

 

[lebba1]

I have to agree with a part of jackandcoke’s posting. I’m glad to have a triple-a station in the area. I’ve lived in lots cities and all I found was country, classic rock, country, soft rock, and country. Just glad to get a variety of radio in Burlington so I don’t need to subscribe to satellite. Not so concerned about the politics since I’m listening from the outside. Sorry many of you seem so bitter. Maybe some of you need to take a trip and listen to radio in other parts and then come back. You might realize it’s better round here than you think. Keep it coming.

 

[kardon35]

I have been reading this thread for a long time and decided to reply because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I streamed the Point online to get a gist of what people have been saying. I also tried that other station in Denver. Now I may be dumb, but the two sounded nothing alike.

Denver was alive and full of passion it was fun to listen to. (One small complaint the commercial breaks were long) Burlington was crunchy and boring. (the commercials sounded dull) Maybe I don't know enough about the AAA format. Did anybody else listen to the two? Do they sound similar to you?

I don't want to be accused of being bitter, (just a radio geek at heart), but to steal a previous posters line "there is some wilting lettuce here." Maybe Lebba is right, we should eat the wilting lettuce and just be happy there is any lettuce at all.

Pass the Frenchy Dressing Please,
Kardon (I'm a Radio Geek) S.

 

[Zeb Norris]

Interesting that so many people are participating in this thread.

Just a few quick points, no pun intended.

The Point and Northeast in general are Burlington Book Arbitron subscribers and have been for 3 years this go-round. I don't know why Arbitron has "embargoed" the market (preventing publication of 12+ numbers), but "desperate salespeople" from The Point using 12 plus numbers on the street that we didn't pay for is not, and never has been, the issue. Our salespeople sell results. Sure, they'll use Arbitron numbers when that's what clients want, but that's not the way we generally do business.

Speaking of salespeople, I have tremendous respect for ours. They flat out do a great job, and earn every penny they take home. While it's true that salespeople make more money that PD's or DJ's, there is simply more demand for great sellers in a wide variety of businesses than there is for people with music knowledge and the ability to run a great segue.

Someone suggested that I don't take critiques from listeners seriously. Actually, I do... when they're regular, normal listeners rather than disgruntled former employees, as in the case of "DJ Kelton" whose interest in this board begins and ends with The Point. Check his/her post history. I know who DJ is, and s/he knows I know, but out of courtesy to him/her I'll just leave it at that.

As to comparing The Point to KBCO (the Boulder/Denver AAA station), I would be the first to say that they are way better than The Point. They also have much more in way of resources. I'm not complaining; in today's radio environment we are very lucky to have the staff we do. But comparing a station in market 137 to one in market 22 is a bit silly.

RE on line listening; Arbitron only adds on line listening to the numbers in the book if you simulcast everything including spots. But because of AFTRA fees, very very few stations do that.

As to whether Northeast is making the best use of the signals in their portfolio, that's above my pay grade. With our main signal licensed for 50,000 watts, 2 other main signals (St J and The Upper Valley), and 4 translators, we hit a huge geographic area. It's true that that doesn't include all of the Burlington Metro counties, but we do generate respectable revenue in 3 rated markets, not just Burlington.

And what are those numbers? Well, I'm not about to cross Arbitron by publicly discussing anything that might result in their unhappiness, but I will say our ratings are good (particularly in Chittenden and Washington counties, our bread and butter areas in terms of revenue), but still not where I'd like them to be. I am, however, very heartened by the news that Arbitron plans to include cell phone only listeners in their samples. As a station that targets educated, successful adults this is terrific news for us. It's my opinion that without including cell phone only folks most 25 to 34 year olds that get sampled live with their moms and dads, which doesn't fit into the aforementioned successful and educated listener profile.

Anyway, I appreciate the passion shown by the continued interest in this thread. One of the challenges of being an AAA PD is that the target audience has very high standards. It's a bit like running an upscale French restaurant vs. running a chain fast food restaurant. Even though the French Restaurant has better food, they also get more customer complaints, as the customers' standards are higher.

Nevertheless, I appreciate all input, and continually tweak the station in any number of ways to both please our core listeners, and to improve our performance in Arbitron.
And again, anyone who cares to can reach me directly at [email protected]


Zeb Norris

 

[nhradiochild]

Zeb, I'd like to say that is one of the most eloquent posts I've seen in a while. Very well done.

I agree that comparing Denver to Central Vermont is a bit ludicrous. It's always nice to strive for that sound, but not always possible given the conditions that each has to work with.

I liked "the Point" back when I was in that area, not necessarily because I enjoyed listening to it for hours on end, but because it was different than your standard station and admired that. In fact, I have to confess that back in the 90s I was more privy to WEBK than the Point, but even they had some improvements that could be made. After visiting their studios at the time I understood why. However, I could definitely say that for what they were lacking, they all had a passion for what they did and that is something I value much higher than final air product anyway, because it leads to improvement.

I felt like commenting more on this, but have run short on time and have to get to work.

Keep up the good work and the passion, Zeb!