Ibiquity's "Gag Order" on engineers

[Boulder Engineer]

Complain to:

Federal Communications Commission
Enforcement Bureau

And in your letter, make SURE you cite the regulation(s) that the radio station is in violation of.
After all, isn't that what the Enforcement Bureau does? Enforce the laws on the books?

One certainly wouldn't want to look like an idiot by posting a complaint to the radio cops that is without any legal merit....Right, Savage?


Frank in Nevada

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Right. All those stations that have spent 75k for the exciter and who knows how much on antenna work and possibly a new TX are going to just say "nevermind".

Face fact, the system has been given approval and unless thingsreally hit the fan in the coming months with real and provable cases if interference within protected contours, it will be in the hands of the marketplace.

Probably right - this thing has taken on the fanaticism of a religion with its supporters. But - there are maintenance costs associated with the system. Once the equipment is amortized, the initial expense off the books - maintenance costs may look high for a system that the marketplace rejected.

 

[Boulder Engineer]

Let's get this thread back on track.

Would you kindly post a copy of Ibquity's "gag order" as received by anyone in the industry?
You made the claim; it's time to fish or cut bait.

Besides, I want to make sure I'm on the official HD Gag Order email list for the next time.

Thanks!

 

[hipporadio]

The idea here is: a tidal wave of FCC complaints about IBOC. HD-AM is on life-support already... a highly guarded industry prognosis and abysmal digital performance in the field, it's as good as dead. All it needs is the right regulatory push to administer the coup de grace...

...it will be in the hands of the marketplace.

...And “the marketplace” WILL kill it – assuming you are disposed to the fantasy that it wasn’t stillborn in the first place.

AM IBOC amounts to little-more than a misguided “science fair project”. One might enjoy the humor of its futility if it was't so destructive to a radio band second-only in the level of requisite life-support to its most-threatening current interferer. While I respect Mr. Savage’s request for an initiative from “the grassroots” and hope such uproar will occur – remember, this is the FCC we are looking to for a solution; and when can we recall any similar rescue from a well-lobbied technical misadventure? iNiquity [I suspect] cagily took advantage of an embarrassed Commission when it conjured its plan [along with its cohorts in corporate radio] for the medium’s digital future in the first place. ‘Recall our favorite ole friend—AM Stereo? Remember also, that “radio” is a magnitude-lower in priory at that regulatory agency.

What the inventors of this “inside joke” may have failed to conjure was the ultimate magic of the marketplace itself toward a product so lackluster in its ability to gratify, and irrelevant to the whims of the social culture; that any reasonable marketing prognosis was doomed from the start. Technical concerns aside, what issue has caused the most-perennial head-scratching in regards to “HD” Radio? ...The pathetic [so-called] “marketing” exercise within an industry that alleges that discipline as part of its profession! Can you complete a simple equation: zero plus zero equals [?]

...All those stations that have spent 75k for the exciter and who knows how much on antenna work and possibly a new TX are going to just say "nevermind".

Once depreciated [like Russco turntables, ITC triple-stacks, and SmartCasters before it], bye-bye-birdie—I mean buzz-saw

 

[Chuck]

Right. All those stations that have spent 75k for the exciter and who knows how much on antenna work and possibly a new TX are going to just say "nevermind".

Actually, replacing an aging transmitter or fixing your antenna and ground system will pay off with or without HD. Changing from a 30-40 year old tube type transmitter to a modern solid state version can pay for itself fairly quickly just in your monthly power bill. Not only does the transmitter use less electricity, but cooling requirements are significantly lower.

Poorly maintained antenna and ground systems are a major contributor to AM's image of being terrible sounding. Fixing these problems isn't the worst thing you could do for your station. Most well financed AM broadcasters keep their antenna systems in excellent shape, so they really didn’t have to do much (if anything) to them. It’s the more marginal stations (who coincidentally have not adopted IBOC) that usually need more work done to their antenna sites.

Most of the AM stations that have adopted HD are the powerhouses that do reasonably well financially. To them, relegating a $35,000 black box HD generator to the storage room is not that big a deal. Upgrading the transmitter is one of those things that you do every now and then, just like buying a new car before the old one starts giving you a lot of trouble. It's just a part of doing business and it won't bankrupt them. With updated transmitter facilities, they and their listeners may be pleasantly surprised by how good they can sound, especially if they returned the audio bandwidth to its pre-IBOC settings. They have little to lose in the experiment.

 

[Savage]

I completely agree about the marketplace, Lino, and thank you for making my point. Much in the same way purchasers expect value for their $75,000 HD-AM exciter money, consumers expect value when they shell out $100 to $200 for an AM radio - a LOT of value, since the $19 AM-FM analog version they currently get at CVS or Costco fulfills their need for radio just fine. Try selling the concept to any consumer: yes, you can spend a C-note to get the SAME programming you currently do on analog.

Did a quick survey of the car dealers currently advertising on WYSL: Chrysler, Ford, several GM lines, Mitsubishi, Toyota. Not one had a vehicle they could show me with HD radio installed. Not one sales manager had ever heard of HD (but they were enthusiastically trying to sell me OnStar and XM.) They patiently listened to me explain the concept, and the universal response: WHY?? You get the local stations fine on this cool AM/FM/XM unit; what's the advantage of HD? Hey, great marketing job there, NAB and Ibiquity.

As far as the guys who shelled out $75K for an exciter and signed a contract to pay annual license fees, all I can say is: caveat emptor. Nobody guaranteed them that IBOC-AM was forever. Everyone understood from the git-go - and if they didn't know it then, they know it now - the system was/is a technical crapshoot.

Not for a minute do I expect you to take my word for it. Read the page-one story in Radio World this week.

Another poster here was right on target. Much in the same way nobody will publicly criticize HD-AM, there's a profound scarcity of major-market engineering execs confidently predicting success with IBOC at night. That's because most privately believe: the system's in trouble.

 

[LinoNYC]

consumers expect value when they shell out $100 to $200 for an AM radio - a LOT of value

Specious argument, and you know that. To pretend that new technology has failed due to high initial price ignores history. Make a better case or drop this point.

since the $19 AM-FM analog version they currently get at CVS or Costco fulfills their need for radio just fine.

Which they will seldom, if ever use for AM.

AM radio today has essentially the same listeners it had 40 years ago, they are just that much older.

AM broadcasters were the ones who demended to be included in any digital radio scheme.

Much in the same way nobody will publicly criticize HD-AM, there's a profound scarcity of major-market engineering execs confidently predicting success with IBOC at night. That's because most privately believe: the system's in trouble.

It's AM radio thats in trouble. I note that your station's sunday is almost entirely taken up with religion and paid programming. As I have noted before, here in NYC all but one of the sub-50k AMs is doing similar things to survive. Three of the 50Ks are vanity, and all of the AM stations have ancient demos.

Stations such as yours in semi/rural areas may contunue to prosper if so, more power to you. But AM as it stands is in real trouble as it's current listenership ages out and dies off.

Programming alone won't fix that,,it has to sound better.

Lino

 

[SUPERCASTER]

But HD radio destroys analog AM fidelity, and very few are likely to replace all their analog radios with HD and add external antennas just to get a couple of very local AM's in HD. Most HD radios have cheap 2 or 3 inch speakers about 8 inches apart, so quality high fidelity or stereo is out of the question, unless you use the HD radio as a tuner, add decent amps, speakers and antennas anywhere you have an analog radio and want to listen.
As widely reported by many, HD radio has very short range, very poor noise immunity and building penetration.
I had to travel to a major market Best Buy within 2 miles of a 50kw clear channel AM just to reliably hear 1 HD AM on Visteon, JVC, and Sony HD radios, and the HD AM sounded awful, much worse then the analog AMs. The HD AM had a resonant high frequency buzz on fricatives that was VERY fatiguing and annoying.
Only a couple of HD FM stations and 1 HD AM were picked up reliably within less then 8 to 12 miles of the transmitter sites from over 20 HD FM's and 4 HD AM's.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Calculated analog field strengths at the aforementioned Best Buy.
Most stations above 2mV/m were heard in the store on the same radios in analog.
Call Sign-Signal in dBu-mV/m-Principal City-State-Frequency-Facility ID

KYW 115.6 607.83 PHILADELPHIA PA 1060 25441
KYW-N 115.6 607.83 PHILADELPHIA PA 1060 25441
WNTP 110.2 326.48 PHILADELPHIA PA 990 52194
WFIL 108.5 266.37 PHILADELPHIA PA 560 52193
WPEN-N 108.4 264.95 PHILADELPHIA PA 950 25095
WNAP 108.1 256.65 NORRISTOWN PA 1110 73313
WWDB 105.3 185.55 PHILADELPHIA PA 860 74085
WPHI-FM 95.3 57.96 Media PA 100.3 25079
WUSL 95.2 57.32 Philadelphia PA 98.9 20349
WIOQ 95.2 57.32 Philadelphia PA 102.1 20348
WYSP 94.8 55.22 Philadelphia PA 94.1 28628
WDAS-FM 94.8 54.91 Philadelphia PA 105.3 71316
WUBA 94.4 52.32 Philadelphia PA 104.5 53969
WHYY-FM 94.3 51.95 Philadelphia PA 90.9 72336
WISX 94.2 51.47 Philadelphia PA 106.1 53973
WRDW-FM 94.1 50.44 Philadelphia PA 96.5 51434
WBEB 94.0 50.21 Philadelphia PA 101.1 71382
WOGL 93.9 49.61 Philadelphia PA 98.1 9622
WMGK 93.4 47.00 Philadelphia PA 102.9 25094
WBEN-FM 93.4 47.00 Philadelphia PA 95.7 22308
WFIL-N 92.2 40.55 PHILADELPHIA PA 560 52193
WXPN 90.5 33.66 Philadelphia PA 88.5 68229
WXTU 90.1 31.83 Philadelphia PA 92.5 74213
WNTP-N 86.8 21.98 PHILADELPHIA PA 990 52194
WRTI 86.5 21.23 Philadelphia PA 90.1 65190
WIP-N 84.8 17.33 PHILADELPHIA PA 610 28626
WIP 84.8 17.33 PHILADELPHIA PA 610 28626
WPEN 83.4 14.76 PHILADELPHIA PA 950 25095
WPHT-N 79.6 9.57 PHILADELPHIA PA 1210 9634
WPHT 79.6 9.57 PHILADELPHIA PA 1210 9634
WMMR 78.5 8.43 Philadelphia PA 93.3 25438
WPPZ-FM 78.4 8.32 Jenkintown PA 103.9 30572
WFYL 78.3 8.25 KING OF PRUSSIA PA 1180 22896
WPHE 77.8 7.72 PHOENIXVILLE PA 690 58738
WWJZ 77.7 7.68 MOUNT HOLLY NJ 640 43904
WURD 75.2 5.78 PHILADELPHIA PA 900 52442
WKDN 73.2 4.55 Camden NJ 106.9 20842
WHAT 72.2 4.08 PHILADELPHIA PA 1340 33686
WHAT-N 72.2 4.08 PHILADELPHIA PA 1340 33686
WTMR 72.1 4.03 CAMDEN NJ 800 24658
WVCH 70.8 3.47 CHESTER PA 740 74166
WDAS 67.2 2.29 PHILADELPHIA PA 1480 71315
WJBR-FM 67.0 2.24 Wilmington DE 99.5 14374
WNPV-N 66.7 2.17 LANSDALE PA 1440 73347
WNPV 65.8 1.96 LANSDALE PA 1440 73347
WRNB 65.7 1.93 Pennsauken NJ 107.9 12211
WPST 64.6 1.70 Trenton NJ 94.5 25013
WEEU-N 64.5 1.68 READING PA 830 70508
WSTW 64.5 1.67 Wilmington DE 93.7 16459
WOR-N 63.8 1.55 NEW YORK NY 710 7710
WOR 63.8 1.55 NEW YORK NY 710 7710
WEEU 63.7 1.52 READING PA 830 70508
WEMG 63.6 1.52 CAMDEN NJ 1310 74073
WTMR-N 61.8 1.22 CAMDEN NJ 800 24658
WJJZ 61.7 1.21 Burlington NJ 97.5 47427
WYBF 61.4 1.18 Radnor Township PA 89.1 8127
WURD-N 60.7 1.08 PHILADELPHIA PA 900 52442
WWJZ-N 60.5 1.06 MOUNT HOLLY NJ 640 43904
WDAS-N 60.2 1.03 PHILADELPHIA PA 1480 71315
WTTM 60.2 1.02 LINDENWOLD NJ 1680 87111
WPWA 59.9 0.99 CHESTER PA 1590 37843
WFAN-N 59.7 0.96 NEW YORK NY 660 28617
WFAN 59.7 0.96 NEW YORK NY 660 28617
WKXW 59.5 0.95 Trenton NJ 101.5 53458
WAEB-N 59.4 0.93 ALLENTOWN PA 790 14371
WLEV 58.9 0.88 Allentown PA 100.7 39875
WFKB 58.5 0.84 Boyertown PA 107.5 71310
WCHR 58.5 0.85 FLEMINGTON NJ 1040 28130
WEMG-N 58.4 0.84 CAMDEN NJ 1310 74073
WISP 58.3 0.82 DOYLESTOWN PA 1570 48310
WABC-N 58.2 0.81 NEW YORK NY 770 70658
WABC 58.2 0.81 NEW YORK NY 770 70658
WCTO 57.4 0.74 Easton PA 96.1 36997
WCHE 57.4 0.74 WEST CHESTER PA 1520 71279
WPRB 57.2 0.73 Princeton NJ 103.3 53567
WRFY-FM 56.9 0.70 Reading PA 102.5 69562
WCOJ 56.8 0.70 COATESVILLE PA 1420 63593
WAEB 55.8 0.62 ALLENTOWN PA 790 14371
WHP-N 55.8 0.61 HARRISBURG PA 580 15322
WPAZ 55.8 0.61 POTTSTOWN PA 1370 25002
WXVU 55.7 0.61 Villanova PA 89.1 70229
WARM-N 55.3 0.58 SCRANTON PA 590 70504
WSAN-N 55.2 0.58 ALLENTOWN PA 1470 18233
WARM 55.1 0.57 SCRANTON PA 590 70504
WCBS-N 54.5 0.53 NEW YORK NY 880 9636
WCBS 54.5 0.53 NEW YORK NY 880 9636
WZZO 54.3 0.52 Bethlehem PA 95.1 14375
WWTX 54.0 0.50 WILMINGTON DE 1290 14373
WCOJ-N 54.0 0.50 COATESVILLE PA 1420 63593
WAEB-FM 53.3 0.46 Allentown PA 104.1 14372
WODE-FM 52.8 0.43 Easton PA 99.9 8595
WPHY 52.4 0.42 TRENTON NJ 920 25011
W245AG 52.3 0.41 Gladwyne PA 96.9 86419
WBAL-N 52.0 0.40 BALTIMORE MD 1090 65679
WHP 51.6 0.38 HARRISBURG PA 580 15322
WRDV 51.2 0.36 Warminster PA 89.3 7931
WNJC-N 51.2 0.36 VINELAND NJ 1360 22058
WBCB-N 50.9 0.35 LEVITTOWN PA 1490 53648
WBCB 50.9 0.35 LEVITTOWN PA 1490 53648
WISP-N 50.8 0.35 DOYLESTOWN PA 1570 48310
WBBR 50.8 0.35 NEW YORK NY 1130 5869
WCBM 50.2 0.32 BALTIMORE MD 680 4759
WTTM-N 50.2 0.32 LINDENWOLD NJ 1680 87111
WSBA 50.2 0.32 YORK PA 910 73979
WSAN 50.2 0.32 ALLENTOWN PA 1470 18233

 

[Savage]

"Specious argument" about the cost of HD-AM radios? I'm amused by the astonishingly contorted pro-IBOC arguments about the resounding "thud" HD-AM is making in the marketplace. Essentially, the position amounts to: "Sure, it's overpriced and the system sucks so far, but it's getting better!" Reports of unreliable HD reception at distances greater than 10 miles from a 50kw transmitter, and retail radio prices 12 times greater than analog devices, are brushed aside as if they're irrelevant. Why is the AM radio listener being asked to participate in what amounts to beta-testing of a "developing" system - at their own expense? Reports of "better" receivers and "codec upgrades" aren't viable answers to the IBOC problems. The system should never have been introduced into the marketplace until it was ready for reliable, everyday use by the typical listener, who demands - and should get - an immediate, tangible benefit from any "innovation."

Look, Lino, if you open a restaurant and open it up before you're ready, when the food sucks and the staff isn't properly trained, YOU'VE BLOWN IT. The patron who came in and was overcharged for a half-cooked meal and a slow waiter WON'T COME BACK. They tried the IBOC Cafe and it was terrible. You don't get a second chance with consumers.

You stand corrected with your claim that WYSL's Sunday program schedule is comprised "almost entirely of religion and paid programming," which is untrue. Actually, there are paid church services on the air early Sunday morning, including a widely-heard live weekly broadcast from the biggest Methodist parish in the Northeast, outside of Boston and NYC. But there are also over nine hours of LOCAL (that would be NON-SYNDICATED) talk including one-hour shows on wine and travel from a local expert, a LOCAL program on money and investing, FIVE LOCAL HOURS on regional and New York State politics, plus a LOCAL public-affairs program dealing with everything from education to transportation to social services to the arts, etc., etc.

WYSL walks the walk, from programming to engineering. Your suggestion that we're just a suburban teapot full of colon-blow recorded shows, vanity talk and Bible-thumping is, to use your word, "specious." I also point out that since 2005 WYSL has spent over $400,000 on RF facility, including an eightfold power increase in day power to 20kw, new Kintronics phasing and LTUs, transmission and sample system, and Nautel 25kw Tx. We also added an Omnia 3a and opened bandwidth from 6 kHz to 10 kHz. The station is loud, bright, has woofer-pounding bass and sparkling highs, and blows everyone else off the dial. The audience LOVES it and points out that WYSL's 20kw signal makes "a nearby 50kw'er" suffering from IBOC analog bandwidth constriction, sound by comparison like some geezer with a permanent sinus infection and a lisp, talking through a bad dial-up.

In short: we're not just naysayers throwing abuse at IBOC from the cheap seats. We're as invested in AM as anyone - many would say our stakes are higher than Clear Channel's, WOR's or Crawford's.

We just maintain that introducing an interference-generating "digital" band-aid is going to be counterproductive, especially when any real-world "benefit" to the listener remains elusive. Sorry, but a quickie technical "fix" (IBOC or any other single device) won't "save" AM. Any real solution is going to take more time and money than just plugging in yet another rack-mount box out at the TX site.

 

[davideduardo]

The system should never have been introduced into the marketplace until it was ready for reliable, everyday use by the typical listener, who demands - and should get - an immediate, tangible benefit from any "innovation."

My first CD player cost $1400 and did not have double or triple sampling; there were only a few hundred titles available, and they ran around $30 in early-80's dollars. The first color TVs were about $1000 and had horrible reception and went out of tune often.

Both innovations seem to have survived early high cost and underperformance.

. The audience LOVES it and points out that WYSL's 20kw signal makes "a nearby 50kw'er" suffering from IBOC analog bandwidth constriction, sound by comparison like some geezer with a permanent sinus infection and a lisp, talking through a bad dial-up.

And that goes a long way towards explaining why you have a 0.5 share and WHAM has a 9.6 in the latest book; they have 19 times the audience. Someone must not have received your memo.

 

[BRUSSTAR]

More Double-Speak From "HD" Cheerleaders

It's absolutely amazing how the "cost argument" is so important to the "HD" fanatics when it comes to telling consumers they're fools for paying a few bucks a month for XM and Sirius THAT MILLIONS CLEARLY WANT AND ENJOY-- yet suddenly the high cost of "HD" receivers is purely inconsequential and deemed irrelevant by the same folks.

Mr. Savage's (and many others') comments are right on. The burden to demonstrate viability, NOW, is on iBiquity and Big Radio. It is not on the consumer.

The "my VCR cost four-figures in 1980" argument doesn't wash. I still have my old, seemingly-weighing-a-ton top-loading VCRs from that era. They cost a decent chunk of cash. And yes, compared to today's $69 retail models, they do just about nothing. The big difference-- in the early '80s, we loved these now-boat-anchors because for the first time (at least in my household) we could time shift, rent movies just months after having been in the theaters, preserve TV shows we liked, and most importantly of all, the EQUIPMENT MET OUR EXPECTATIONS for the cost. Only those of us who worked in the field of video knew the lines of resolution on a VHS unit back then sucked, and that one track of analog audio was terrible. The average consumers were amazed, and gladly paid a lot of money (even early) with relative satisfaction.

Alternatives to the early '80s-era VCRs were way off. Only wealthier movie nuts had LaserDiscs, and they were cumbersome and expensive. There were no DVDs, and certainly no DVD recorders. There was no TiVo.

Radio does not have the luxury of monopoly anymore. By the time even a few members of the general public had ever even HEARD the term "HD Radio" (and an overwhelming majority of Americans still don't know or care what it is), there were already many, many better, cheaper, and properly established (and marketed) alternatives in use with marked satisfaction.

And my having a VCR didn't affect TV reception for those who were without one.

Again, cost-to-the-consumer is so important to these guys when it comes to trashing XM and Sirius, but it's a "small price to pay" when it comes to buying radios that are expensive, don't work well (yes, I have had more opportunities than the average consumer to inspect them because of "connections"), are hard to find even for the few who are curious, and overall have zero demand from the marketplace.

Yes, the innovations of CDs and VCRs survived the 1980s. But they wouldn't have survived 2007. And people actually UNDERSTOOD what they were!

I know, I'm a fool for thinking logic will gain any traction in this debate.

 

[Savage]

And THAT arrogant, ugly, elitist comment explains why you are regarded as one of the best-loved frequenters of radio industry message boards. So I gather that your argument is that only top-rated radio stations are to be permitted to survive....and all because of IBOC?

This is a typical, albeit extreme, example of the aggressively intolerant and disrespectful attitude shown local AM station owners by the IBOC-AM lobby. And it's a self-defeating attitude as well. IBOC will never succeed if it's only adopted by 200 or 300 major-market AMs. If IBOC proponents hope to get their desperately-struggling system to survive, much less succeed, they need the support of the very broadcasters they're alienating.

The investment WYSL has made in facility, one which dwarfs the capital spent by your darling big corporate groups in the market, is already bearing fruit. Westwood One's pitch sheet for Dennis Miller ranks WYSL with an 1100% increase in PM drive audience, with a 1.5 share 25-54. We are seeing parallel increases in audience
in other dayparts. Of course we know we have to grow; that's why we built the 20kw upgrade. Not that I have to justify WYSL's peformance to self-anointed industry experts.

I'm sure you have to hurry off and update the 19 websites you've posted about yourself, but a final observation on supply-and-demand: there was a consumer demand for CD players, which offered a real consumer benefit. HD-AM flunks both those tests. Which is why it will flop, regardless of how unfairly Ibiquity, the FCC, and radio groups misled into this nonsense, try to stack the deck.

 

[BRUSSTAR]

Think Laypeople Don't Notice? Think Again. It's Not Just The Geeks.

since the $19 AM-FM analog version they currently get at CVS or Costco fulfills their need for radio just fine.

Which they will seldom, if ever use for AM.

Oh, man. I'm sure the sales departments of KYW, WCBS, WINS, WBZ, WEEI, etc. would disagree with the assertion that that listeners "seldom" wake up with their stations on clock radios.

But how long will that be the case? Probably for a few more years, but it'll be interesting to see how IBOC hash/buzz/ween affects TSL.

KYW recently activated its IBOC here in Philadelphia. I live just a few miles from the 50,000-watt transmitter, and for most of my life, KYW was the clearest (and easiest to receive) station on the AM dial. Now, the station has an obnoxious high-pitched "ween" or "hiss" (similar to the "hiss" under the audio of a cheap cassette tape) under its audio. It's also much more difficult to tune-in on any non digital tuner, as one has to have a very steady hand to zero in on the signal (which sounds more like a telephone call than an AM station). This has not gone unnoticed by laypeople. Several have already asked me what was "wrong" with KYW lately. "There's a lot more static." My own father, who spent his entire career in telecommunications and served as a radio specialist years ago in the Armed Forces, asked me why KYW "doesn't come in well anymore". He also live just a few miles from the transmitter, and also was able to get the station perfectly since moving there in the '70s.

Do I think this noise will stop people from listening to KYW? Of course not. They'll still punch up 1060 for traffic, weather, some headlines, and ball scores. But hearing that annoying "hiss" (which one non-radio person told me just a couple weeks ago "gives her a headache) may lead to those folks quickly turning the station off as soon as they get the information they wanted.

None of the people I spoke with about the KYW issue had ever heard of "HD" Radio, and seeme to think it was asinine when I fairly and objectively (scout's honor) tried to explain it.

By the way, I have a range of both old, new, cheap, and expensive radios in my home. All but one have noticable degradation in audio of KYW. The digital tuner in my Pontiac always seemed to use narrow bandwidth for AM (all AM stations, even before IBOC) sound like garbage in that car. I notice no difference in KYW's sound on that radio. I do, however find annoying the fact that I can no longer hit "scan" and jump from WPEN, to 990, to KYW. The IBOC hash makes the "scan" want to stop on almost every position in between. (Salem's 990 does not use IBOC, and is now one of the few "crispy" sounding stations on the Philadelphia dial.)

 

[LinoNYC]

Re: More Double-Speak From "HD" Cheerleaders

It's absolutely amazing how the "cost argument" is so important to the "HD" fanatics when it comes to telling consumers they're fools for paying a few bucks a month for XM and Sirius THAT MILLIONS CLEARLY WANT AND ENJOY-- yet suddenly the high cost of "HD" receivers is purely inconsequential and deemed irrelevant by the same folks.

Sat radio provides programming that broadcast radio, as a mass media can't/won't. It's a subscription model not really comparable.

By your logic every glitched-up, overpriced new tech product will have failed, including the P.C. you used to write this brilliant opus.

The "my VCR cost four-figures in 1980" argument doesn't wash. I still have my old, seemingly-weighing-a-ton top-loading VCRs from that era. They cost a decent chunk of cash. And yes, compared to today's $69 retail models, they do just about nothing.

Again it's not about initial cost but since your'e down with making another flawed comparison, in 1980 there were approx 3.5-4 million VCR's in the hands of consumers.

Time went by, price came down, quality and features improved. Americans bought.

Again, cost-to-the-consumer is so important to these guys when it comes to trashing XM and Sirius, but it's a "small price to pay" when it comes to buying radios that are expensive, don't work well (yes, I have had more opportunities than the average consumer to inspect them because of "connections"), are hard to find even for the few who are curious, and overall have zero demand from the marketplace.

I know, I'm a fool for thinking logic will gain any traction in this debate.

Yet again, do you really "think" that IBOC radios will be as costly, limited in design and poor in performance a year from now.

You don't need "connections" to evaluate released consumer tech. Buy a device, take it back if it doesn't meet your expectations.

BTW: I hope your "connections" will give you the chance to test and comment-on the next generation of iboc radio.

Which they will seldom, if ever use for AM.

Oh, man. I'm sure the sales departments of KYW, WCBS, WINS, WBZ, WEEI, etc. would disagree with the assertion that that listeners "seldom" wake up with their stations on clock radios.

But how long will that be the case? Probably for a few more years, but it'll be interesting to see how IBOC hash/buzz/ween affects TSL.[/quote]

I deal with well over a hundred young people (late 'teens -early 30s) in my restaurant locations, I have telked to most of them about music and radio over the years.

I have found none of the non-hispanic, Americans listen to AM. Sound quality and programming the reasons.

Lino

 

[BRUSSTAR]

Those Who Can't Defend Their Arguments Ignore Their Opponents'

As "HD" proponents run out of plausible arguments, they turn to personal attacks both on those who disagree-- as well as attacks on the performance of others' radio stations (i.e. WYSL) which have absolutely nothing to do with the argument.

I may have been a tad smarmy in my generalization of the "HD Cheerleaders", but any "attacks" I made were nothing like the drivel above. I'll attack the pro-HD crowd as a whole, but I'll refrain from attacking individuals (as tempting as it may be) because doing so discredits me.

Okay, the Eagles game is over. I'll bite.

Sat radio provides programming that broadcast radio, as a mass media can't/won't. It's a subscription model not really comparable.

By your logic every glitched-up, overpriced new tech product will have failed, including the P.C. you used to write this brilliant opus.

The business models (terrestrial versus satellite) and what my PC cost whatever number of years ago is irrelevant and, in my opinion, little more than obfuscation on your part. I was simply demonstrating the hypocrasy of trying to brainwash folks into thinking a few dollars a month for satellite was bankbreaking while implying a few hundred on an HD Radio is no big deal.

Again it's not about initial cost but since your'e down with making another flawed comparison, in 1980 there were approx 3.5-4 million VCR's in the hands of consumers.

Time went by, price came down, quality and features improved. Americans bought.

That's a hell of a lot more than the number of "HD" sets in the hands of consumers today. And Sony nor JVC had an entire industry of American media "donating" supposed "millions of dollars in inventory" promoting and propagating to potential consumers.

By 1980, people knew what VCRs were. Take yourselves out of your circles of "radio people" and really find out what makes "normal people" tick. They don't know or care about HD Radio. And those who do learn shake their heads and wonder why anyone thinks it'll ever work.

I don't doubt that prices will come down on HD radio sets. Just like unpopular artists find their records in the discount rack, the few retailers who rolled the dice on (and are since, now, distancing themselves from) HD Radio will look to fill valuable shelf space with more popular items.

But I'll spot you that-- HD Radio prices overall will go down, and features/performance will improve (assuming it's even around long enough for this to happen). History does indicate the likelihood of that. My assertion is it'll be much too little, much too late. (It was too little, too late the day the first HD station went on-air.)

I'm sorry you conveniently ignored the most important part of my "brilliant opus". Americans bought VCRs and CD players by the millions in the '80s because there was no viable alternative. There was tremendous demand. There are tons of better, cheaper alternatives to HD Radio, and there is zero demand by consumers. 100% of the demand for HD is by those in radio or radio geeks (and even most of the geeks are smart enough to understand how nonsensical this all is).

Yes Lino, Americans bought VCRs and CD players. They're not buying this. Maybe if it were 1990, the prediction would be different.

You don't need "connections" to evaluate released consumer tech. Buy a device, take it back if it doesn't meet your expectations.

BTW: I hope your "connections" will give you the chance to test and comment-on the next generation of iboc radio.

Why would I part with a few hundred dollars, even temporarily, when my "connections" will let me sample and test whatever I want for free? So I can drive the sales numbers up?

Only because I enjoy consumer electronics, I too hope my "connections" will let me check out "the next generation" of IBOC. But I don't think so. They're all pretty frustrated with it themselves, while the others are laughing.

I'm always telling radio guys they've got to stop thinking as "radio people" and get in touch with what the next generation of consumers wants. They don't want radio as it is now. They sure as heck don't want a more expensive radio as it is now, brought to them by the same people who are dishing out radio as it is now.

 

[LinoNYC]

The business models (terrestrial versus satellite) and what my PC cost whatever number of years ago is irrelevant and, in my opinion, little more than obfuscation on your part. I was simply demonstrating the hypocrasy of trying to brainwash folks into thinking a few dollars a month for satellite was bankbreaking while implying a few hundred on an HD Radio is no big deal.

Marketing pap aside, you're still comparing dissimilar models and it is not valid.

That's a hell of a lot more than the number of "HD" sets in the hands of consumers today. And Sony nor JVC had an entire industry of American media "donating" supposed "millions of dollars in inventory" promoting and propagating to potential consumers.

Answer, First commercial VCR early 1976-four years by 1980, First VHS: 1977. Iboc radio: about a year and three quarters, released amid a flood of new "sexy" consumer audio devices.

Take yourselves out of your circles of "radio people" and really find out what makes "normal people" tick. They don't know or care about HD Radio. And those who do learn shake their heads and wonder why anyone thinks it'll ever work.

Sorry to disappoint, I'am not in "radio circles".

I do however have an iboc (acurian) since last November. It's located in the dining room and the thirty-plus guests that have seen it since then have all been impressed with it's performance even when I point out the shortcomings.

But I'll spot you that-- HD Radio prices overall will go down, and features/performance will improve (assuming it's even around long enough for this to happen). History does indicate the likelihood of that. My assertion is it'll be much too little, much too late. (It was too little, too late the day the first HD station went on-air.)

How nice of you. My counter assertion is that once the chips get cheap they'll be embedded into most radios, just like stereo.

In a way I agree with you, it's too late for anything that radio does to make a splash in today's market. Instead we are talking about boom boxes, clock radios, home theater sets etc. When and if these chips are embedded into these, the system will become mainstream.

Americans bought VCRs and CD players by the millions in the '80s because there was no viable alternative.

You need to stop mixing apples and oranges. No alternative for the VCR, true. As for the CD player, there certainly was, two infact: tape deck and turntable.

BTW: Do you know what drove the majority of sales of cd's and players during the first eight years of their release? Catalog reissues.

A case of new technology reinvigorating existing media.

There are tons of better, cheaper alternatives to HD Radio, and there is zero demand by consumers. 100% of the demand for HD is by those in radio or radio geeks (and even most of the geeks are smart enough to understand how nonsensical this all is).

I have yet to see you name anything that would enhance radio that hasn't already been tried.

What is nonsensical is to pretend that radio, AM in particular is not in dire need of technological help.

What I have read are alot of idiotic statements that "am should be allowed to fade away gracefully", or that as yet undiscovered programming will finally get new blood into it's listenership.

Only because I enjoy consumer electronics, I too hope my "connections" will let me check out "the next generation" of IBOC. But I don't think so. They're all pretty frustrated with it themselves, while the others are laughing.

Now look who is mired in "radio circles" thinking. The average consumer won't care about iboc untill it's in the sort of radio he buys.

I'm always telling radio guys they've got to stop thinking as "radio people" and get in touch with what the next generation of consumers wants. They don't want radio as it is now

-And ofcourse you would know better than those actually in the business.

At any rate you have proposed a solution: turn in those licenses use the band for something else and we'll all retreat into our I-Pods.

Lino

 

[davideduardo]

And THAT arrogant, ugly, elitist comment explains why you are regarded as one of the best-loved frequenters of radio industry message boards.

Where is there arrogance in stating that the station you diss ande dismiss for having poor sound beats you overwhelmingly in the ratings? I guess telling the truth about your radio station is arrogant: "how dare you tell anyone that nearly nobdy listens to my cherished radio station?"

So I gather that your argument is that only top-rated radio stations are to be permitted to survive....and all because of IBOC?

There is a funny coincidence. Nearly all the viable AMs have good ratings. The ones that do not cover the market day and night generally do not. The ones that can not compete because not everyone in a market can hear them will eliminate themselves naturally, and HD is only a distraction in this process, not the root cause.

This is a typical, albeit extreme, example of the aggressively intolerant and disrespectful attitude shown local AM station owners by the IBOC-AM lobby.

There is no such thing. Just some AM operators who see at least a chance for HD to help AM. Some of us thing that the chance is worth it, even as the viable AM format, news/talk, moves slowly but surely to FM, where the 35-54 audience suddenly blooms!

And it's a self-defeating attitude as well. IBOC will never succeed if it's only adopted by 200 or 300 major-market AMs.

In the top 100 markets, there are not 300 viable stations. Just 150 to 200 stations is all it takes in HD in thse 100 markets to reach all the viable stations with significant audiences. Remeber, there are markets with no viable AMs today.

We are seeing parallel increases in audience
in other dayparts.

The last book was a 0.5 like the prior one.... if PMs went up, the rest of the day must have gone down. 1100% of a 0.1 share is still not much of a share.

I'm sure you have to hurry off and update the 19 websites you've posted about yourself,

This is where your irrational attitude suffers. I have one website, and I have had it for about 12 years. It gets all of about 20 hits a day... I realize most are for the examples of Hispanic formats and the old Radex and White's Logs, not for my bio and history. But I am realistic. That's why I haven't bought an AM for myself and would never want one even if gifted to me.

but a final observation on supply-and-demand: there was a consumer demand for CD players, which offered a real consumer benefit. HD-AM flunks both those tests. Which is why it will flop, regardless of how unfairly Ibiquity, the FCC, and radio groups misled into this nonsense, try to stack the deck.

It's just been a few months since the FCC approved HD, and already we have several companies ready to ship low power chips with significant enhancements in another 3 months or so, led by the industry leader, Samsung. That is very fast development as I see it.

 

[Boulder Engineer]

It's just been a few months since the FCC approved HD, and already we have several companies ready to ship low power chips with significant enhancements in another 3 months or so, led by the industry leader, Samsung. That is very fast development as I see it.

David: To put numbers on that, the first version HD chipset used something like 4 watts of power, my understanding is that the new decoder chips arriving late this year use less than 1/10 of that, perform better and cost a lot less, less than even the old Motorola C-Quam chips. That'll make HD practical in inexpensive headphones, Walkman-style receivers, and other mainstream products. IMO, there really won't be any reason not to include HD capability in new radios, even inexpensive ones. The AM side of HD is pushing the Nyquist limit on audio bandwidth and the new chips are supposed to remove the remaining artifacts. I see some really compelling and fun things happening on the FM side, some are my own guesses, others have been hinted at.

Frank in Nevada (Soon to be Seattle)

 

[Savage]

Okay, okay, I surrender! Make me an offer, the station's for sale. I've decided on a new career.

I'm going to head off to the mysterious Andes, to work at invisible radio stations we'll just call Radio Flying Dutchman, Radio Loch Ness Monster and Radio Sasquatch. In so doing, even though I was born and raised in Rochester, New York, I'll contrive a new ersatz-Latino identity: call me "Row-BEAR-tow Sa-VAH-hay." After I "save" the South American "cluster" my next stop will be at similarly unverifiable posts somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle (stations appear and disappear there all the time. Heck, that thing swallowed Flight 19!!)

While batting around various remote reaches of the Caribbean and the Third World (during which - I am not making this up - "it took me a year to learn how to cart a newscast") I'll indulge in some creative resume inflation - you know, like how "urinal cake installer" somehow transposed, due to some Spanglish text-editing malfunction, to "President and CEO." I'll trumpet my odd exploits on incredibly boring and graphically-challenged personal websites, ME.com, MOREOFME.com, STILLFREAKINMOREOFME.com, and Godsgifttoradio.com.

Whereupon I'll return to the US to stalk the blogosphere, arrogantly and perpetually pontificating on Arbitron PPMs and PPDVs, browbeating legitimate broadcasters and generally behaving like an infantile, stunningly boring, ego-crazed gasbag. And all along the way, I'll strut around behind my faux-Hispanic identity with a degree of impunity, knowing that people who don't know better or who haven't taken time to look will give me an unwarranted pass on my obnoxious comments, incorrectly assuming that I am "a minority."

Can't wait to get started, amigos!