Ibiquity's "Gag Order" on engineers

[clouseau]

AH. Incorrect. Z-100 does very well on Long Island. Many of the NYC stations rely heavily on suburban audiences... especially stations like Z and WPLJ. And the ratings are there. In fact, 5 of the top 10 on Long Island 12+ are NYC signals. If the HD signal is no good even before you're into Suffolk County, what good is it?

You've refuted the incorrect info. While "Nassau Suffolk" does show ratings for NY stations, you aren't really telling me that people are listening at the 34 dbu level are you? There is VERY heavy listening close in. You can not seriously be claiming 65-70 mile audience, right? I'm sure you get diaries due to commuting to the city, but 34 dbu? Virtually no one has a radio that does this. Also, in Westhampton, 69.4 miles to the east of Empire is good old WAPP on 100.3. I don't think there is alot of Z-100 listening out by Riverhead at 69.4 miles out.

30 miles is out to the 61 dbu contour. That's basically the protected contour in "Fly Over" country and about the last 25% in this zone. It's doesn't appear to me to be "the most local HD offerings".

This is on a quality receiver. I would surmise that you would have issues on portable devices as close as 10-15 miles depending on terrain.

I guarantee you can get a crappy enough radio to not work under almost any circumstances. To the best of my knowledge there is no receiver standard per say. Just radiation limits and stuff. I could be wrong, though.

I think reception in all but very local situations may not work all that well. JUST LIKE NOW. IF you buy the $4.99 scan tune only FM radio and expect it to work worth a hoot unless you're under the tower you're crazy. This isn't an "HD" issue. It's a "Crappy Radio" issue. And it's here NOW.

But that leaves the golden goose out of the equation. At least with HD, it can fall back to analog. The HD2, is either there or not, the killer app would be useless unless you stood still.

I get you're looking at cheapie radios now, but NONE of those are even thinking about FM at 60 miles. Your assertion is that chepie stuff wont work on HD. It doesn't work on analog either.

Clouseau

 

[awj223]

You've refuted the incorrect info. While "Nassau Suffolk" does show ratings for NY stations, you aren't really telling me that people are listening at the 34 dbu level are you? There is VERY heavy listening close in. You can not seriously be claiming 65-70 mile audience, right? I'm sure you get diaries due to commuting to the city, but 34 dbu? Virtually no one has a radio that does this. Also, in Westhampton, 69.4 miles to the east of Empire is good old WAPP on 100.3. I don't think there is alot of Z-100 listening out by Riverhead at 69.4 miles out.

No one has a radio that can do 34 dBu? I've listened to KIIS-FM (Los Angeles, CA, 8 kW @ 902m HAAT and 1802m elevation) about 40 miles south of the US-Mexico border on the Baja coast. Most of the time it was in FULL STEREO too. OEM car radio. Distance from transmitter is about 170 miles.

Want another one? KPOA-FM (Lahaina, HI, 69 kW @ 1387m elevation) from Laie, HI, two islands away, about 120 miles from the transmitter. Again, stock car radio. I'm not sure what the field strengths were but I'm almost certain they were below 40 dBu, especially for KIIS.

Since most people own a car, most people own a radio that can do sub 40 dBu listening. I also have a handheld Sony 7600 that seems to be almost as sensitive as car radios, and that's without an external antenna.

 

[wgliradio]

AH. Incorrect. Z-100 does very well on Long Island. Many of the NYC stations rely heavily on suburban audiences... especially stations like Z and WPLJ. And the ratings are there. In fact, 5 of the top 10 on Long Island 12+ are NYC signals. If the HD signal is no good even before you're into Suffolk County, what good is it?

You've refuted the incorrect info. While "Nassau Suffolk" does show ratings for NY stations, you aren't really telling me that people are listening at the 34 dbu level are you? There is VERY heavy listening close in. You can not seriously be claiming 65-70 mile audience, right? I'm sure you get diaries due to commuting to the city, but 34 dbu? Virtually no one has a radio that does this. Also, in Westhampton, 69.4 miles to the east of Empire is good old WAPP on 100.3. I don't think there is alot of Z-100 listening out by Riverhead at 69.4 miles out.

No, but there is good listening at 15-25 miles out... and there is HD failure at that distance even on stationary radios like the Accurian and in moving vehicles like the JVC. If you move that model to a portable radio, it's only getting worse.`

I get you're looking at cheapie radios now, but NONE of those are even thinking about FM at 60 miles. Your assertion is that chepie stuff wont work on HD. It doesn't work on analog either.

On a cheap walkman, I can receive an analog FM signal in mono without much of a problem 25 miles out. That same radio is not recovering an HD signal. This is still prime real estate for these New York signals.

 

[davideduardo]

As far as FM goes, reception of most New York FM signals goes out approx 65-70 miles outside of New York City over Long Island. The HD signal covers maybe 25-30 miles of that on a car radio. On the Accurian, using a T antenna, reception is hit and miss, especially over the summer months when skip becomes an issue. There are days when the HD2's aren't stable enough to even listen to.

The fact is that, based on analysis of many markets, and millions of incidents of listening, on the average 80% of an FM's location specific (in home and at work... 70% of listening except NY where it is 75% of listening) listening is in the 70 dbu contour and another 15% in the 64 dbu contour. While a signal may be protected or "receivable" beyond that point, very, very little listening takes place to metro stations beyond it.

The new third generation receivers work well in HD BEYOND the areas where 95% of listening takes place.

Most of the listenership to stations beyond the listenable contours is in-car... you can see a few NYC FMs getting Suffolk numbers, but it is mostly not in-home reception.

 

[davideduardo]

Since most people own a car, most people own a radio that can do sub 40 dBu listening.

70% of radio listening is on home or at work type radios, not in the car. And most of that listening is inside the 64 dBu signal contours... the bulk being inside the 70 dBu contours.

 

[davideduardo]

. Anyone want to hazard a guess about Z-100's ratings in the 70 mile range neighborhood? Here's a hint. NOT THERE.

Actually, there are ratings, enough to be top 10 in the Suffolk market... but almost all the listening, which is reported based on where a person lives, is at work (closer to the City) or in the car (same thing). This is, in general, why distant stations show up in local books or in extracts from local books as is the case for Nassau and Suffolk.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Answer- I did not say Samsung was not an industry leader, but even they will have a very tough time convincing people to wear tin foil hats topped with rabbit ears and AM loop antenna necessary for reliable HD radio reception, connected to their new pocket sized, battery powered HD radios and cell phones for which the new chipsets were designed.

Is that an adult response?

What he and others with actual knowledge of this sytem have said is that the newer chips will have much lower power consumption and much better performance.

I know this may be frustrating to admit but all technology starts out costly and buggy. I guess the next decade is going to difficult for some people.
Lino

Only for those who cling to defective, problematic, obsolete, needless, HD Radio, the Titanic 2000 of broadcasting. The rest of us have long ago moved on to much newer, advanced, reliable, feature packed, versatile, better New Media technologies, that actually have real benefits for the end user.

Was it you, or one of the other rabid HD supporters that kept accusing others they disagreed with of wearing "tin foil hats"?

Is that an adult response?

 

[LinoNYC]

Answer- I did not say Samsung was not an industry leader, but even they will have a very tough time convincing people to wear tin foil hats topped with rabbit ears and AM loop antenna necessary for reliable HD radio reception, connected to their new pocket sized, battery powered HD radios and cell phones for which the new chipsets were designed.

Is that an adult response?

What he and others with actual knowledge of this sytem have said is that the newer chips will have much lower power consumption and much better performance.

I know this may be frustrating to admit but all technology starts out costly and buggy. I guess the next decade is going to difficult for some people.
Lino

Only for those who cling to defective, problematic, obsolete, needless, HD Radio, the Titanic 2000 of broadcasting. The rest of us have long ago moved on to much newer, advanced, reliable, feature packed, versatile, better New Media technologies, that actually have real benefits for the end user.

Was it you, or one of the other rabid HD supporters that kept accusing others they disagreed with of wearing "tin foil hats"?

Is that an adult response?

"Tin Hats" is something you probably said.

All of your posts are the same: run-on sentences w/multiple commas, same bitter tirade.

re-read the other posts in this thread, most of the posts give information as well as opinion.

Nothing that you have written is worth bothering with.

I know (and hope ) this is painfull for you, but iboc with all it's shortcomings is now the officially approved mode for digital in-band broadcasting in the USA.

The American public will now decide, it will take the better part of a decade for a verdict.

You can pound and rant all you want......it's over.

Lino

 

[R.F. Burns]

Answer- I did not say Samsung was not an industry leader, but even they will have a very tough time convincing people to wear tin foil hats topped with rabbit ears and AM loop antenna necessary for reliable HD radio reception, connected to their new pocket sized, battery powered HD radios and cell phones for which the new chipsets were designed.

Is that an adult response?

What he and others with actual knowledge of this sytem have said is that the newer chips will have much lower power consumption and much better performance.

I know this may be frustrating to admit but all technology starts out costly and buggy. I guess the next decade is going to difficult for some people.
Lino

Only for those who cling to defective, problematic, obsolete, needless, HD Radio, the Titanic 2000 of broadcasting. The rest of us have long ago moved on to much newer, advanced, reliable, feature packed, versatile, better New Media technologies, that actually have real benefits for the end user.

Was it you, or one of the other rabid HD supporters that kept accusing others they disagreed with of wearing "tin foil hats"?

Is that an adult response?

If you had truly moved on you wouldn't be wasting your time posting on this board. No, you haven't moved on and you don't see this as a short term technology. It appears as though you see IBOC as a real challenge to your future. I do feel pitty for you and hope you can deal with the reality of the situation rather then continuing to act like the irrational child you have been behaving like on this message board. No insult intended, just my observation from reading your posted comments.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

No one has a radio that can do 34 dBu? I've listened to KIIS-FM (Los Angeles, CA, 8 kW @ 902m HAAT and 1802m elevation) about 40 miles south of the US-Mexico border on the Baja coast. Most of the time it was in FULL STEREO too. OEM car radio. Distance from transmitter is about 170 miles.

WSRV 97.1 Gainesville GA (NW of Atlanta) in Lakeland, FL - about 300 miles - OEM car radio. Dependable and solid every single trip (dozens) driving through there.

WGCO 98.3 Savannah, GA in Deland, FL. Regular, dependable. OEM car radio with narrow filter modification.

WJHM 101.9 Daytona Beach, FL - about 50 miles East of Tallahassee, FL. OEM car radio - absolutely dependable.

 

[R.F. Burns]

No one has a radio that can do 34 dBu? I've listened to KIIS-FM (Los Angeles, CA, 8 kW @ 902m HAAT and 1802m elevation) about 40 miles south of the US-Mexico border on the Baja coast. Most of the time it was in FULL STEREO too. OEM car radio. Distance from transmitter is about 170 miles.


WSRV 97.1 Gainesville GA (NW of Atlanta) in Lakeland, FL - about 300 miles - OEM car radio. Dependable and solid every single trip (dozens) driving through there.

300 Miles is over the horizon. VHF frequencies are limited by the Horizon. I've traveled to upstate central NY where there are few local FM radio stations and have never heard a NYC FM facility there and that is less then 200 miles away. You must be receiving this station via a semi permanent seasonal duct. Any chance you can make a recording of this station ? The station is located North East of Atlanta and there is no way any WSRV audience exists in Lakeland, which is far beyond the normal groundwave line of site signal radiated by this station. WSUN in Holiday Fl is much closer at 65 miles, WOSN from Indian River Shores is only 114 Miles away. It just doesn't make any sense that WSRV which is really over 500 miles away, in Gainsville Ga would come in like a local, regularly.

"WGCO 98.3 Savannah, GA in Deland, FL. Regular, dependable. OEM car radio with narrow filter modification."

A distance of 300 miles from station to receiver. I have family in Florida and have traveled all over the state and other than odd occurances, have never received stations from such extended distances on a regular basis.

 

[clouseau]

WSRV 97.1 Gainesville GA (NW of Atlanta) in Lakeland, FL - about 300 miles - OEM car radio. Dependable and solid every single trip (dozens) driving through there.

C'mon. There's a Co channel c2 in metro Tampa - WSUN. How doesn't it interfere?

WGCO 98.3 Savannah, GA in Deland, FL. Regular, dependable. OEM car radio with narrow filter modification.

Got many average listeners with a "narrow filter modification"?

WJHM 101.9 Daytona Beach, FL - about 50 miles East of Tallahassee, FL. OEM car radio - absolutely dependable.

Ok then. Assuming "Greenville" is about where you are saying that is 279.5 KM away. With 90 KW and 474mtrs HAAT, that's a signal strength of 14.278 db. That's 0.00517 mV/m as per the FCC curves program.

I believe you "Received" this station here. I think at over 10db BELOW the noise floor, it probably "NOT" quite as reliable as you would think. And either way, I think this would qualify as DX.

Clouseau

 

[rbrucecarter5]

C'mon. There's a Co channel c2 in metro Tampa - WSUN. How doesn't it interfere?

My bad, I meant Lake City. I've been out of Florida TOO LONG!

WSRV 97.1 Gainesville GA (NW of Atlanta) in Lake City, FL - about 300 miles - OEM car radio. Dependable and solid every single trip (dozens) driving through there.

Got many average listeners with a "narrow filter modification"?

Probably not, but the discussion was if regular radios could do it. If there wasn't a local on 98.1, 98.3 would have been strong enough for the radio without the mod.

Ok then. Assuming "Greenville" is about where you are saying that is 279.5 KM away. With 90 KW and 474mtrs HAAT, that's a signal strength of 14.278 db. That's 0.00517 mV/m as per the FCC curves program.

I believe you "Received" this station here. I think at over 10db BELOW the noise floor, it probably "NOT" quite as reliable as you would think. And either way, I think this would qualify as DX.

Call me a liar all you want. I know what the radio did, what the conditions were, and how many times I received it. Your opinion has no relevance to the observation.

As far as your calculations, if you have any experience with radio at all, you know there are little nodes and nulls due to the multiple bays, localized conditions, and other factors that will put strong signals over areas, maybe as small as a few feet across, even at hundreds of miles. And little nulls. So your calculations of average signal strength are meaningless for the situations we are documenting. And - I have to admit, the signal strengths in those localized situations are probably FAR above the noise floor, probably far above what you would think of as "fringe" reception. You happen to live in one of these small nodes - you get the station. Move away from the node, you won't get it no matter how big the antenna, good the radio, etc. If you are in a null, you won't get the station, I don't care if you can see the tower. Period. IBOC won't help, either.

I've driven in areas with NO local stations - but put the radio on a "blank" frequency and once in a while, a distant station from who knows where will come in. Is it reflection off a plane, meteor scatter - who knows what? But in a few cases, I'd be willing to speculate it is actually a dependable node, especially if it repeats predictably.

Theoretical calculations are really good tools for predicting average reception conditions. But there is a time to quit using them and get out in the field and make observations. The wise engineer knows when to quit with the simulations and get some empirical data.

 

[clouseau]

WSRV 97.1 Gainesville GA (NW of Atlanta) in Lake City, FL - about 300 miles - OEM car radio. Dependable and solid every single trip (dozens) driving through there.

...
Call me a liar all you want. I know what the radio did, what the conditions were, and how many times I received it. Your opinion has no relevance to the observation.

Ummm.. This isn't my opinion. It's a calculation. The new locale gives us 300KM + distance. I would never for a second tell you it "DIDN'T" happen. I wouldn't even say it didn't happen several times. I also would suspect it isn't happening right now. I'm sure YOU can understand that an assertion that there is regular reception at basically ground level of a predicted <11 db signal isn't rational. I know there are examples of where this can happen. Take k266ab in Elko receiving KBZN from Salt Lake City. 296 kM over the air reliably enough to rebroadcast. Of course there is a serious hieght factor. The translator is 962 ft HAAT. The station is 3772 ft HAAT. We're talking serious altitude here.

I suspect you are experiencing ducting. It is very common by the coast. One can monitor the Houston board here and see routine receotion of stations from a couple hundred miles away. It just is NOT " Service Contour".

As far as your calculations, if you have any experience with radio at all, you know there are little nodes and nulls due to the multiple bays, localized conditions, and other factors that will put strong signals over areas, maybe as small as a few feet across, even at hundreds of miles. And little nulls. So your calculations of average signal strength are meaningless for the situations we are documenting. And - I have to admit, the signal strengths in those localized situations are probably FAR above the noise floor, probably far above what you would think of as "fringe" reception. You happen to live in one of these small nodes - you get the station. Move away from the node, you won't get it no matter how big the antenna, good the radio, etc. If you are in a null, you won't get the station, I don't care if you can see the tower. Period. IBOC won't help, either.

I've driven in areas with NO local stations - but put the radio on a "blank" frequency and once in a while, a distant station from who knows where will come in. Is it reflection off a plane, meteor scatter - who knows what? But in a few cases, I'd be willing to speculate it is actually a dependable node, especially if it repeats predictably.

Is this discussion turning into "Is there really DX"? I don't think I'm disputing that. It started out with People aren't receiving 34 dbu signals. You now seem to freely admit that these signals are "probably far above what you would think of as "fringe" reception." My response to thisis "EXACTLY"

Theoretical calculations are really good tools for predicting average reception conditions. But there is a time to quit using them and get out in the field and make observations. The wise engineer knows when to quit with the simulations and get some empirical data.

I agree with this. The wise engineer also know that receotion of an FM signal over 300 KM away means ZERO. Just like the income or listership you can get with such a signal at that distance.

I just don't see it does or will ever have any value.

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

Speaking of "never having any value..." BREAKING HD-AM NEWS!

RF Burns and my bud the clouseaumeister might want to keep the champagne corked, or at least cut down on the number of floats in the IBOC victory parade. This just in from respected Radio World mag:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.8417.html

And of course all the Bridge data showing that HD isn't moving the listenership needle, primarily reflects those too-cool "stations between the stations" on HD-FM. AM IBOC? invisible, notwithstanding all the ruckus on this board.

Hey, somebody did react this week to the HD-FM promos for "stations between the stations!" A listener said, you know what, I discovered those "in-between" channels and they are SO COOL! Like between 92.5 and 93.3, I got a really good one from Buffalo on 92.9!!

 

[R.F. Burns]

Speaking of "never having any value..." BREAKING HD-AM NEWS!

RF Burns and my bud the clouseaumeister might want to keep the champagne corked, or at least cut down on the number of floats in the IBOC victory parade. This just in from respected Radio World mag:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.8417.html

And of course all the Bridge data showing that HD isn't moving the listenership needle, primarily reflects those too-cool "stations between the stations" on HD-FM. AM IBOC? invisible, notwithstanding all the ruckus on this board.

Hey, somebody did react this week to the HD-FM promos for "stations between the stations!" A listener said, you know what, I discovered those "in-between" channels and they are SO COOL! Like between 92.5 and 93.3, I got a really good one from Buffalo on 92.9!!

what's that Stones song? Oh yea, Time Is On My Side (A cover of the Irma Thomas original and not as good). This is a long term project. As to the near future let's see;

0 0 2 0 0 2 2 3 4 2 3 5
days hours mins secs msecs

 

[dbdigital]

Speaking of "never having any value..." BREAKING HD-AM NEWS!

RF Burns and my bud the clouseaumeister might want to keep the champagne corked, or at least cut down on the number of floats in the IBOC victory parade. This just in from respected Radio World mag:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.8417.html

And of course all the Bridge data showing that HD isn't moving the listenership needle, primarily reflects those too-cool "stations between the stations" on HD-FM. AM IBOC? invisible, notwithstanding all the ruckus on this board.

Hey, somebody did react this week to the HD-FM promos for "stations between the stations!" A listener said, you know what, I discovered those "in-between" channels and they are SO COOL! Like between 92.5 and 93.3, I got a really good one from Buffalo on 92.9!!

what's that Stones song? Oh yea, Time Is On My Side (A cover of the Irma Thomas original and not as good). This is a long term project. As to the near future let's see;

0 0 2 0 0 2 2 3 4 2 3 5
days hours mins secs msecs

I'm not so sure time is on HD Radio's side, given the rapid deployment of WiMax, devices such as the iPod Touch and the eagerness of auto manufacturers to put internet connectivity into their cars (according to that article). It could be that we will see consumers leap frog from analog radio to web radio, by-passing HD Radio entirely. The public is certainly interested in mobile connectivity. The good news is that terrestrial broadcasters can web stream also and, as the article suggests, may be in the best position to exploit this technology as they simultaneously broadcast and web stream as well as create other on-line content.

Of course, the fly in the ointment are the performance royalties internet radio is burdened to pay which may hinder its growth. But then, as we know, the RIAA and some Congressmen want to fan that fly into the ointment of terrestrial radio as well.

db

 

[clouseau]

Speaking of "never having any value..." BREAKING HD-AM NEWS!

RF Burns and my bud the clouseaumeister might want to keep the champagne corked, or at least cut down on the number of floats in the IBOC victory parade. This just in from respected Radio World mag:

Y'know, I keep telling folks I am NOT an HD cheerleader. More like a "Reaction" to the lunatic "Insert Crazy New language synonym for leaky boat here" group.

I will not be opening any champagne. And in my neck of the woods, we have victory parades on boats. GO SPURS GO!

And that Radio World. I don't know how respected they are. They quoted me in the last few months and now they've got a moon bat letter to the editor on Pg. 77.

I'm thinking Champagne ain't got enough horsepower for either of us.

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

MOON-BAT ?!? "How sharper than a serpent's tooth...." etc. I'd be pretty upset, if only I knew what a moon-bat was. Let me hazard a guess: probably not a compliment?

We all do appreciate your admission though, clouseau, that you drink heavily while posting here. JUST KIDDING, MODERATOR! Clouseau and I are just trading some good-natured mutual abuse.

TODAY'S INVESTMENT TIP: Better dump that iBiquity (or however the heck it's spelled) stock before WiMax rolls out. This is not a prospectus or solicitation. Check with your financial advisor and neurologist before investing or sending money to check to see if you have been struck in the head with a heavy object before buying into HD.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Answer- I did not say Samsung was not an industry leader, but even they will have a very tough time convincing people to wear tin foil hats topped with rabbit ears and AM loop antenna necessary for reliable HD radio reception, connected to their new pocket sized, battery powered HD radios and cell phones for which the new chipsets were designed.

Is that an adult response?

What he and others with actual knowledge of this sytem have said is that the newer chips will have much lower power consumption and much better performance.

I know this may be frustrating to admit but all technology starts out costly and buggy. I guess the next decade is going to difficult for some people.
Lino

Only for those who cling to defective, problematic, obsolete, needless, HD Radio, the Titanic 2000 of broadcasting. The rest of us have long ago moved on to much newer, advanced, reliable, feature packed, versatile, better New Media technologies, that actually have real benefits for the end user.

Was it you, or one of the other rabid HD supporters that kept accusing others they disagreed with of wearing "tin foil hats"?

Is that an adult response?

"Tin Hats" is something you probably said.

False- I was not the first to bring up tin foil hats on this board. I can see the rebuttal of shameless personal criticisms by HD fanatics is disagreeable to you. :'(

All of your posts are the same: run-on sentences w/multiple commas, same bitter tirade.

Answer- Then why read it?

re-read the other posts in this thread, most of the posts give information as well as opinion.

Answer- In YOUR oppinion.

Nothing that you have written is worth bothering with.

Answer- Then why read it?

I know (and hope ) this is painfull for you, but iboc with all it's shortcomings is now the officially approved mode for digital in-band broadcasting in the USA.

The American public will now decide, it will take the better part of a decade for a verdict.

Answer- Yes they are deciding as we speak, and it isn't taking a decade.

"However, with these respondents, we followed up with the question "Would you buy an HD radio in the next two months?" only 1.0% responded "yes"."

"Asked if they ever visited a retail store to look at or try an HD radio receiver, 30 members of our sample of 3179 said they had. That is less than 1%."

"Declining interest in HD radio has caused us to slightly reduce our estimates for HD radio listeners out to 2015."

"In the following media growth projections, Bridge Ratings estimates based on current trends that Internet radio will have 180 million listeners by 2020, 250 million will still be listening to terrestrial radio, but HD will have less than 10 million. Which will contribute more to radio's financial future?"

"According to John Blackledge analyst with JP Morgan, Internet radio advertising is estimated at $500M this year (2007). Bridge Ratings estimates that by 2020 Internet radio is projected to generate revenues equal those terrestrial radio acheived in 2006."

Source:
http://www.bridgeratings.com/press_08.08.07.HDvsInternet.htm



You can pound and rant all you want......it's over.

Lino

Your right, it's over. I'm not sorry you lost.