insane HD radio prices

[davideduardo]

The purpose of Conelrad was to keep Russian bomber

crews from DF'ing an AM station and "riding the beam"

Nope. There were plenty of systems that would have detected intercepted bombers in the CONELRAD era. CONELRAD was designed to prevent locking an ICBM on a specific station once its intercontinental guidance system got it into the vicinity of a major US city or defense site.

If you check, you will find that radar was primitive in 1941 and the lone Oahu site was manned only part of the time, had no telephone or radio connection to a military base, and the crews had no experience in interpreting what was seen on the cathode ray tubes. By the time of the first CONELRAD tests 15 years later, radar was well developed and we even had things like NORAD to look for both missiles and planes from the Arctic Circle.

 

[davideduardo]

Were there any tests to see if it work in real life?

Yes, there were tests. Five national and several local and regional ones. They worked, but whether and stations suffered is unclear. The tests were just a half hour long... during which time all FM and TV shut down, and any station not in the test also shut down.

As a sidebar, during one test, I heard Regina, Sask, and Winnipeg, Manitoba on groundwave from NE Ohio while all US stations were off.

 

[landtuna]

If you check, you will find that radar was primitive in 1941 and the lone Oahu site was manned only part of the time, had no telephone or radio connection to a military base, and the crews had no experience in interpreting what was seen on the cathode ray tubes. By the time of the first CONELRAD tests 15 years later, radar was well developed and we even had things like NORAD to look for both missiles and planes from the Arctic Circle.

Yes, RADAR was primitive in 1941 compared to what we have now but it did work and did intercept the Japanese aircraft just as it was designed to do. The RADAR operators correctly interpreted the incoming flight of aircraft but when the message was relayed by phone to the operations center it was interpreted as a flight of incoming B-17's which had flown overnight from Hamilton AFB in CA and were expected.

Both the B-17's and the attacking Japanese followed the signal from KORL-AM which had stayed on-air overnight as a navigation aid to the American aircraft.

The main failure in the attack on Pearl Harbor was the assumption by high military authority that the Japanese were incapable of attacking Hawaii. Because of the war in Europe draining resources, such as patrol aircraft, away from the Pacific there was a paucity of reliable information on Japanese military operations. Everyone believed they would attack SE Asia (which they did and overwhelmed an unprepared MacArthur force there as well) as Hawaii was considered safe for the fleet.

A historically accurate reproduction of the Pearl Harbor attack from both sides is contained in the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora".

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, RADAR was primitive in 1941 compared to what we have now but it did work and did intercept the Japanese aircraft just as it was designed to do. The RADAR operators correctly interpreted the incoming flight of aircraft but when the message was relayed by phone to the operations center it was interpreted as a flight of incoming B-17's which had flown overnight from Hamilton AFB in CA and were expected.

In a sense, the interpreted "a flight" and drove down from the radar site, used a non-military phone and called the detection in... losing about half an hour in the process. And then the data was interpreted wrong.

Both the B-17's and the attacking Japanese followed the signal from KORL-AM which had stayed on-air overnight as a navigation aid to the American aircraft.

KORL did not exist. It's generally considered that KGU 760 was the station... the only other Honolulu station was KGMB.

A historically accurate reproduction of the Pearl Harbor attack from both sides is contained in the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora".

I think this is a very important movie for a variety of reasons. It's an accurate account, and also teaches a good lesson about making assumptions and about trusting other nations explicitly.

 

[landtuna]

According to the following link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-270_radar) the earliest detection was a few minutes after 7 Hawaii time which would have been approximately 50 minutes before the beginning of the attack.

According to the timelines I've read the reference to the "gas station telephone" was early in the set up of the radar station at Opana Point but by the date of the attack the radar site had field telephone service to the operations center.

Three hours earlier, at approximately 3:45 AM, the destroyer USS Ward made contact with an unknown submarine outside the harbor and just before 7AM attacked it with gunfire and depth charges sinking it. The information related to the discovery and sinking was reported to higher naval authorities but was not passed along to the senior commanders (Adm Kimmel and Gen Short).

If this earlier information had been acted upon and combined with the radar intercept it might have been possible for the battleships to put up more of a defense...but....there were no torpedo nets outward of the BB's nor did any have their guns ready for action. They were sitting ducks. It might have allowed sufficient American aircraft to get aloft and put up a reasonable defense however.

I stand corrected on the radio station although I could find no official mention of KGMB in the archives.

It is simply amazing how many mistakes of omission and commission were made by American political and military leaders in the year leading up to the attack. Many of them driven by race prejudice.

 

[davideduardo]

According to the following link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCR-270_radar) the earliest detection was a few minutes after 7 Hawaii time which would have been approximately 50 minutes before the beginning of the attack.

According to the timelines I've read the reference to the "gas station telephone" was early in the set up of the radar station at Opana Point but by the date of the attack the radar site had field telephone service to the operations center.

Yes, I looked at a number of references and find that there are statements that there was a radio, a phone and a "phone down the hill." It would seem likely that a military site would have, at least, a mobile radiotelephone. The real issue, of course is that the report was improperly analyzed.

I stand corrected on the radio station although I could find no official mention of KGMB in the archives.

There were only four stations in Hawaii in 1941, and here is a listing...

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1941/Radio-AL-NE-Ter-YB-1941.pdf Skip to the next-to-last page for Hawaii. Interestingly, the last page lists the FCC licensed stations in the Philippines, USA.

 

[landtuna]

There were only four stations in Hawaii in 1941, and here is a listing...

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1941/Radio-AL-NE-Ter-YB-1941.pdf Skip to the next-to-last page for Hawaii. Interestingly, the last page lists the FCC licensed stations in the Philippines, USA.

It's interesting that the stations in the Philippines all began with 'K' as they were located in the "eastern" portion of the date line.

What happened to their calls when the Philippines gained its independence from the USA? I notice today most calls begin with a 'D'.

 

[badjef]

There were only four stations in Hawaii in 1941, and here is a listing...

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1941/Radio-AL-NE-Ter-YB-1941.pdf Skip to the next-to-last page for Hawaii. Interestingly, the last page lists the FCC licensed stations in the Philippines, USA.

It's interesting that the stations in the Philippines all began with 'K' as they were located in the "eastern" portion of the date line.

What happened to their calls when the Philippines gained its independence from the USA? I notice today most calls begin with a 'D'.

I found that funny, back in the 70's, there was a set of calls, DWLS, in Baguio City. They only used WLS, in English. It was a "beautiful music" while the real WLS was Top 40.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[davideduardo]

It's interesting that the stations in the Philippines all began with 'K' as they were located in the "eastern" portion of the date line.

This is the same strange situation as Puerto Rico. The traditional Spanish alphabet has neither a K nor a W. Because PR is "eastern" they use W, but the pronunciation is not standardized, with some stations IDing as "doble-u" and some as "doble-v."

 

[badjef]

There were only four stations in Hawaii in 1941, and here is a listing...

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-BC-YB/1941/Radio-AL-NE-Ter-YB-1941.pdf Skip to the next-to-last page for Hawaii. Interestingly, the last page lists the FCC licensed stations in the Philippines, USA.

It's interesting that the stations in the Philippines all began with 'K' as they were located in the "eastern" portion of the date line.

Silly person, using the date line as the deviding line of the world. The FCC was a little more arrogant than that. When they agreed to separate K and W with the Mississippi River, they folded the world in half with the River as their crease. That made the Pacific a K territory by default.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[cd637299]

^ Ah but what about WVUV in American Samoa?

 

[mmnassour]

Oh, and just so everybody will know the original item is..."no longer available"....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sangean-80-...68075?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item19ce7e548b

OK, now which one of you made him the offer he couldn't refuse? ;D

 

[nd2023]

We should have bid it up to $10000 or $20000! Make it more expensive than installing an HD transmitter.

 

[badjef]

We should have bid it up to $10000 or $20000! Make it more expensive than installing an HD transmitter.

How would that have helped?

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[iyiyi]

Original calls were issued to ships. W for the Pacific and K for the Atlantic. After WW1, land stations began appearing and were simply assigned the opposite first letter for identification. For example: A signal in the East could instantly be ID'd as land or sea by the call sign. Ditto for the West. Also: WKY, WBAP, WNAX, WOAI, KQV and KYW might indicate that the good old W/K/Mississippi River dividing line wasn't originally penned in stone.

-

 

[badjef]

Original calls were issued to ships. W for the Pacific and K for the Atlantic. After WW1, land stations began appearing and were simply assigned the opposite first letter for identification. For example: A signal in the East could instantly be ID'd as land or sea by the call sign. Ditto for the West. Also: WKY, WBAP, WNAX, WOAI, KQV and KYW might indicate that the good old W/K/Mississippi River dividing line wasn't originally penned in stone.

-

That would sound plausible if ships did not go around the world. Unlike land-based radio, ships move between the Atlantic and the Pacific.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[Savage]

No, I think the intent was to identify the ship's Port of Registry, not where it might be sailing at any specific time. POR is still the maritime equivalent to "City of License" in broadcasting and IIRC, was the genesis/precedent for our COL rule way, way back when.

Thanks for that historical item, iy - I've learned something today!

I've noticed that the Mississippi division is indeed, not hard-and-fast. When I was working at KDWB back in the 70s I noticed how many Minneapolis stations had W calls and many on the eastern side of the river in St. Paul had K's. Never got how that came to be.... ???

 

[cd637299]

^ The Mississippi River's north end stops short of Minneapolis/St. Paul, so it might be a case of whatever calls a station wants, K *or* W. Duluth has K's & W's too.

Somebody feel free to correct me on the ruling on that.

cd

 

[badjef]

^ The Mississippi River's north end stops short of Minneapolis/St. Paul, so it might be a case of whatever calls a station wants, K *or* W. Duluth has K's & W's too.

Somebody feel free to correct me on the ruling on that.

cd

Correction: the River travels from North to South, so it starts as a confluence of several waterways and flows to the Gulf of Mexico.

There is another possibility, just as our I-75 travels East and West through North Port, people think that they are traveling East when they are exit. It is possible that the FRC people were directionally challenged and the people they were asking during the research process were not much better.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[cd637299]

^ The Mississippi River's north end stops short of Minneapolis/St. Paul, so it might be a case of whatever calls a station wants, K *or* W. Duluth has K's & W's too.

Somebody feel free to correct me on the ruling on that.

cd

Correction: the River travels from North to South, so it starts as a confluence of several waterways and flows to the Gulf of Mexico.

There is another possibility, just as our I-75 travels East and West through North Port, people think that they are traveling East when they are exit. It is possible that the FRC people were directionally challenged and the people they were asking during the research process were not much better.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

.....and don't forget I-75 as Alligator Alley from Naples to Miami, realistically east-west for over 70 miles; but because it's a continuation of I-75, and that it's an odd number (75), it is a north/south highway.

A few years ago in Miami-Dade or Broward, one of the green highway signs listed I-75 toward Naples as "west" (using a small w). That did not last long, although I sure understood.

What's the name of this thread again?

cd