insane HD radio prices

[rbrucecarter5]

^ The Mississippi River's north end stops short of Minneapolis/St. Paul, so it might be a case of whatever calls a station wants, K *or* W. Duluth has K's & W's too.

Somebody feel free to correct me on the ruling on that.

cd

Correction: the River travels from North to South, so it starts as a confluence of several waterways and flows to the Gulf of Mexico.

There is another possibility, just as our I-75 travels East and West through North Port, people think that they are traveling East when they are exit. It is possible that the FRC people were directionally challenged and the people they were asking during the research process were not much better.

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

.....and don't forget I-75 as Alligator Alley from Naples to Miami, realistically east-west for over 70 miles; but because it's a continuation of I-75, and that it's an odd number (75), it is a north/south highway.

A few years ago in Miami-Dade or Broward, one of the green highway signs listed I-75 toward Naples as "west" (using a small w). That did not last long, although I sure understood.

What's the name of this thread again?

cd

I-4 more north south than east west. I-75 to the east of I-85. Weird state when it comes to highway numbers.

 

[landtuna]

And here in AZ I-10, an east-west Interstate highway, actually runs almost north-south between Phoenix and Tucson. Natives here refer to Tucson as being "south" when it is actually southeast but the highway signage uses north-south terminology. Must be confusing for the touristas. ;D

Now, back to our regularly-scheduled thread. (Wait, I've got nothing to offer.)

 

[ngriffin]

Take a look at Barry Mishkind's http://www.oldradio.com/current/bc_k&w.htm. According to that site, the line was farther west prior to 1923. Stations in Minnesota and Louisiana had extra flexibility since the river cuts through the middle of those states, including several cities. Also, in Minnesota, you have the area north of Bemidji and Lake Itasca where call signs were mixed.

Today, the K/W limitations on calls are gone, but the FCC does give random calls to new stations based on the old rules. Most new instances of calls on the wrong side of the line, are in markets along the river when formats shift from one signal to another (such as WLLR moving from 101.3 East Moline, IL to 103.7 Davenport, IA).

 

[tomservo]

There are a handful of new stations, some still unbuilt, with K-calls IN the state of Mississippi, which is east of the river. KBUD in Sardis has been on the air for years and is nowhere near the river.

I've been told there are a few K-calls now in Michigan as well.

Methinkst someone at the FCC doesn't understand geography.

 

[nd2023]

102.9 in Minneapolis recently changed its calls from W to K. In the Twin Cities, the river runs east-west. Most of the transmitters are on the "W" side but their COL is on the "K" side.

 

[local oscillator]

Currently, there is one "K" callsign in Michigan, which belongs to KTGG in Spring Arbor, a 450W daytimer on 1540 kHz owned by Spring Arbor University. The callsign was issued in error by the Commission back in 1984, and it stuck.

But . . . there is about to be another: EMF's KVLZ in Sheridan, WY has a CP to move to Rochester Hills in suburban Detroit. It will keep its "K" callsign and operate with 1.2 kW at 53 m on 90.3 mHz.

 

[Savage]

The Mississippi runs east-west in Minneapolis-St. Paul?? News to me....

The I-35 bridge collapse three years ago involved a span...over the Mississippi. The river is much smaller in the TC than it is in Louisiana, but it's still the Mississippi. So, yes, the River does separate the Twin Cities.

 

[fybush]

The Mississippi runs east-west in Minneapolis-St. Paul?? News to me....

The I-35 bridge collapse three years ago involved a span...over the Mississippi. The river is much smaller in the TC than it is in Louisiana, but it's still the Mississippi. So, yes, the River does separate the Twin Cities.

The esteemed counselor might do well to consult a map...

The Mississippi traces a sinuous course through the Cities, entering (well, exiting, really - I know I'm going upstream here) from the southwest near Hastings, where it ceases to define the MN/WI border (the St. Croix River branches off to the north to take on that role for about 80 miles, after which it's a straight north-south land border up almost to Duluth.)

Once it's fully within Minnesota, the river bends almost due north into downtown St. Paul, and for about three miles it's entirely within the city of St. Paul as it bends west and then south. Down near the airport, it turns west and then bends sharply north again, and it's here that the Mississippi indeed divides a residential neighborhood of St. Paul from a residential neighborhood of Minneapolis.

Then the Mississippi bends westward again, and the city line doesn't follow - instead, it goes due north on land for another couple of miles through a relatively industrial area between the University of Minnesota campus (in Minneapolis) and the state fairgrounds (in St. Paul). The KSTP/Hubbard Broadcasting studios straddle the line along University Avenue. I can assure you there are no bridges separating the Minneapolis side of the KSTP studios from the St. Paul side.

Once the river has bent northwestward toward downtown Minneapolis, it is entirely within Minneapolis city limits for about six miles. It bends again after downtown, turning due north again as it exits the city up toward Coon Rapids and the WCCO site.

The I-35W bridge that collapsed was entirely within Minneapolis, connecting downtown to the Dinkytown area near the university on the river's...um...north shore.

Nice town, Minneapolis...

 

[landtuna]

The I-35W bridge that collapsed was entirely within Minneapolis, connecting downtown to the Dinkytown area near the university on the river's...um...north shore.

Dinkytown? Really? I guess it is really cold up there, eh? ;D

 

[davideduardo]

Currently, there is one "K" callsign in Michigan, which belongs to KTGG in Spring Arbor, a 450W daytimer on 1540 kHz owned by Spring Arbor University. The callsign was issued in error by the Commission back in 1984, and it stuck.

One of the... perhaps urban legend... explanations is that someone at the FCC mistook "MI" for being the abbreviation for Minnesota and proceeded to issue a "stock" call, since the licensee had not specified a requested call.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Today, the K/W limitations on calls are gone...

Really?

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title47-vol4/xml/CFR-2010-title47-vol4-sec73-3550.xml

"(e) Call signs beginning with the letter “K” will not be assigned to stations located east of the Mississippi River, nor will call signs beginning with the letter “W” be assigned to stations located west of the Mississippi River."

 

[nd2023]

I know the Mississippi River has a lot of curves in the Twin Cities, but generally it goes west through St Paul and Minneapolis. The exact course is moot, because the stations have their COL on the "K" side, and their transmitters on the "W" side.

St Paul's streets are either parallel or perpendicular to the river, which makes navigation confusing.

 

[Savage]

Calling Captain NERW and Monsieur Eduardo :

I believe I was calling into question the assertion that "the Mississippi runs east and west" in the Triple Cities. If you check my post, I was not arguing that it runs north and south. As Mr. Fybush has observed, it goes northwest, west, north-northwest and south.

As for the "urban legend" that the FCC mistook the abbreviation of "MI" for Michigan, I doubt it. Until the advent of uniform state two-letter abbreviations (IIRC it was around the launch of the Zip Code system in 1963) the abbreviation for Minnesota was "Minn.," like the old abbreviation for Pennsylvania was "Penna."

More obiter dicta having nothing to do with HD Radio: the old abbreviation for Florida, "Fla.," was actually a tribute to Hopewell, NY's favorite son - Henry Flagler, a robber-baron era tycoon who drained the swamps of south Florida and made development of Miami possible. He also built the Florida East Coast Railway, providing the first land-based access to the Keys.

 

[badjef]

The I-35W bridge that collapsed was entirely within Minneapolis, connecting downtown to the Dinkytown area near the university on the river's...um...north shore.

Dinkytown? Really? I guess it is really cold up there, eh? ;D

Cold enough to freeze your dinky off...

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[Savage]

The winter I lived in St. Paul working at the old AM iteration of KDWB, there was a three-week period in January-February when the overnight low was consistently lower than -25 F. The high for the day would be maybe 5 or 2 or 3 below. In other words, when the daily high got above a negative number, it actually felt "warm." Kinda.

The overnight jock found his driver's door hopelessly frozen shut one morning, so he had to crawl across the passenger-side bucket seat and center console to get behind the wheel. He was a rather large lad and had some trouble maneuvering in the tight cabin. His hip hit the pot-metal automatic transmission selector, which had become quite brittle in the -30 F overnight. It snapped off. He had to borrow a large screwdriver from the engineering shop to get the car in gear so he could go home.

I arrived in St. Paul in May 1974, and out chatting with the engineers in KDWB's garage outside, I asked about a row of snowmobile suits hanging there and a couple of snowmobiles. I surmised they were used for base-current readings on 630's enormous wide-spaced 6-tower array. Well, we use them for that, I was told, but we also use them to come get you at home when there's a bad snowstorm. We had a big laugh. Come January, I realized: it was no joke.

 

[badjef]

The winter I lived in St. Paul working at the old AM iteration of KDWB, there was a three-week period in January-February when the overnight low was consistently lower than -25 F. The high for the day would be maybe 5 or 2 or 3 below. In other words, when the daily high got above a negative number, it actually felt "warm." Kinda.

The overnight jock found his driver's door hopelessly frozen shut one morning, so he had to crawl across the passenger-side bucket seat and center console to get behind the wheel. He was a rather large lad and had some trouble maneuvering in the tight cabin. His hip hit the pot-metal automatic transmission selector, which had become quite brittle in the -30 F overnight. It snapped off. He had to borrow a large screwdriver from the engineering shop to get the car in gear so he could go home.

I arrived in St. Paul in May 1974, and out chatting with the engineers in KDWB's garage outside, I asked about a row of snowmobile suits hanging there and a couple of snowmobiles. I surmised they were used for base-current readings on 630's enormous wide-spaced 6-tower array. Well, we use them for that, I was told, but we also use them to come get you at home when there's a bad snowstorm. We had a big laugh. Come January, I realized: it was no joke.

I half-joke with people that I don't want to go anywhere North of Orlando in the Winter.

Anywhere North of Florida is the "Upper 47".

Jeff in Sa-ra-so-ta!

 

[landtuna]

The overnight jock found his driver's door hopelessly frozen shut one morning, ....

For a time, I owned a brand new 1970 Beetle in the hinterlands just north of NYC. It was quite common for a freezing rain or just plain cold to freeze the doors shut. You were especially screwed if you locked the doors as the locks were almost impossible to thaw using normal tools. I carried a little butane torch with me during those times and it worked wonders for opening the doors and keeping my coffee hot. ;D

 

[davideduardo]

As for the "urban legend" that the FCC mistook the abbreviation of "MI" for Michigan, I doubt it. Until the advent of uniform state two-letter abbreviations (IIRC it was around the launch of the Zip Code system in 1963) the abbreviation for Minnesota was "Minn.," like the old abbreviation for Pennsylvania was "Penna."

The K in Michigan did not hit the air until well, well after the launch of the new abbreviations. It was apparently licensed in 1984 and went on the air in '85.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

As for the "urban legend" that the FCC mistook the abbreviation of "MI" for Michigan, I doubt it. Until the advent of uniform state two-letter abbreviations (IIRC it was around the launch of the Zip Code system in 1963) the abbreviation for Minnesota was "Minn.," like the old abbreviation for Pennsylvania was "Penna."

The K in Michigan did not hit the air until well, well after the launch of the new abbreviations. It was apparently licensed in 1984 and went on the air in '85.

From what I heard, somebody at the FCC thought the "MI" in the application was for Missouri - not realizing MI is Michigan and MO Missouri. So they got "KTGG" call letters.

 

[Savage]

Very cool. I'd take a K callsign in the East any day, never mind the reason. Although, today, few people identify stations with call letters anyway.

Volkswagens had notoriously ineffective heaters. I had a 1969 squareback wagon (a second car, thankfully, what a POS) and I always kept a scraper handy - for use on the windows INSIDE the vehicle. If you had more than one person aboard, the moisture from the passengers' breath plus melting snow from wet clothing would condense on the inside of the windows. And, ignoring the HIGH alleged setting of the wimpy convection heater, it would promptly freeze on the inside of the glass.