Interested in opinions from radio experts :)

[radiofriend1]

how blessed we are to be in an age with so many alternatives..............20 yrs ago u were stuck with AM, FM or CD

You had CD in 1986? Most people still had casettes.
Amazing that an early adopter like you hasn't gotten satellite radio yet. Or an mp3 player.

no satellite, kidz have mp3s. do have dvr which is da bomb

 

[Anyacat]

My oldies format is a hybrid of what I call "the chart" (Oldies chart from mediabase) which has the old tired songs one must play to get good ratings, and what I feel is the true oldies format which includes a lot of 50s "birth of rock" music as well as the 60s lost hits type of stuff.

So anyway, here is the listen link: www.oldiesradionet.com/oldies56.asx

would appreciate your comments!

Matt...

Thanks for the link. OK station, would much prefer the 50s and early 60s--which, according to this forum, makes me odd indeed. It is true that in the 1960s we did not listen to music of the 1920s, but some of us really enjoyed the big band sounds of the 30s and 40s (and still do), but there was no outlet--or not one that I remember.

 

[fred flintstone]

Thanks for the link. OK station, would much prefer the 50s and early 60s--which, according to this forum, makes me odd indeed. It is true that in the 1960s we did not listen to music of the 1920s, but some of us really enjoyed the big band sounds of the 30s and 40s (and still do), but there was no outlet--or not one that I remember.

In Philadelphia, in the late 50s and early 60s, there were several flavors of MOR, including standards and various mixes of non-rock pop songs and standards by currently popular artists - plus one AM Big Band station (WRCV, 50kw NBC O&O) which got terrible ratings - even some of the FM stations playing classical or elevator music beat it back at a time when hardly anybody listened to FM. In the mid 60s, Group W took over the station, flipped to all news and went to number one (where it mostly stayed for the next 30 years). For some reason, all big band - all the time just didn't work well on radio and wasn't easy to listen to for too long. The MOR stations had a more varied sound - male vocals, female vocals, groups, instrumentals, fast music, slow music. But the Big Band station was just unrelieved big band swing, mostly instrumental or instrumental with a vocal passage. All the big bands started sounding alike. I can listen to an album of Glenn Miller or Benny Goodman and enjoy it but I couldn't take much of big band radio.

 

[argytunes]

Matt...

Instead of going through the thread b**ching about radio music the way it should or shouldn't be programmed, maybe clearer definitions of the words: OLDIES, CLASSIC ROCK, & CLASSIC HITS would be more in sync with the audience you're looking for?

I have 4 different "classic rock" stations programmed in the car. The majority of the tunes each station plays covers the time frame from 1956 to 1977. Granted, that's more than 20 years of music. But this really doesn't bother me [I played many of the songs when I began working as a jock in the early 70s].

What bothers me more are some of the terrible screaming ads that show up in the middle of the spot clusters. Some are national/some are local---but a lot them are completely 'out of touch with the audience that's enjoying the format!' With 2 or 3 'screamers' in succession...I usually switch to a similar station or turn my radio off in favor of a CD.

Maybe the problem ISN'T the music programming, but what comes in-between?

I could bring up the jocks who know nothing about the format (but pretend they do), but with so many of them 'voice tracked' in order to save money...it probably doesn't matter to a PD, GM or Sales Manager?

argytunes ???

 

[Anyacat]

Thanks for the link. OK station, would much prefer the 50s and early 60s--which, according to this forum, makes me odd indeed. It is true that in the 1960s we did not listen to music of the 1920s, but some of us really enjoyed the big band sounds of the 30s and 40s (and still do), but there was no outlet--or not one that I remember.

In Philadelphia, in the late 50s and early 60s, there were several flavors of MOR, including standards and various mixes of non-rock pop songs and standards by currently popular artists - plus one AM Big Band station (WRCV, 50kw NBC O&O) which got terrible ratings - even some of the FM stations playing classical or elevator music beat it back at a time when hardly anybody listened to FM. In the mid 60s, Group W took over the station, flipped to all news and went to number one (where it mostly stayed for the next 30 years). For some reason, all big band - all the time just didn't work well on radio and wasn't easy to listen to for too long. The MOR stations had a more varied sound - male vocals, female vocals, groups, instrumentals, fast music, slow music. But the Big Band station was just unrelieved big band swing, mostly instrumental or instrumental with a vocal passage. All the big bands started sounding alike. I can listen to an album of Glenn Miller or Benny Goodman and enjoy it but I couldn't take much of big band radio.

Dear Fred: Well, I certainly wouldn't advocate all big band all the time, and anyway I have CDs of the music I really like. But early on the board someone made a point that in the 1950s, no one was crying for 1920s music, which might be true--but on the other hand, recording was pretty awful in the 1920s. Anyway, as a teen I loved rock and I loved big band and I loved classical and, for the most part, I had many stations from which to choose. Although I do not remember any stations that offered big band in Chicago, my memory could be faulty.

 

[KevinFodor]

No, let's try this again.

It's not about who has the most listeners.
It's about who has the most desirable listeners - listeners advertisers want to reach.
CPM=Cost per thousand.
A station can charge more for a thousand white males 18 to 34 than for a thousand white males 55 to 65.
Advertisers pay more to reach people who are more likely to buy their product and who are more likely to be heavy users of their product.
They also pay more to reach harder to reach people. Older people listen to radio more. Therefore, they are easier to reach. Therefore, advertisers pay less to reach them. Scarcity increases value.

Since when is a business an "accomplice" for giving the customer what it wants?
The advertiser is the customer.
The advertiser pays the piper.
You all got a free ride for 35 years of Oldies (plus 15 years before that of AM Top 40).
Stop whinning.

You are absolutely correct, "Fred". That's what the radio game is all about.

I do, however, think the advertising business is being extremely short-sighted about
the lack of "value" it places today on people over 50. There are major studies out which show today's group of 50-somethings has far more disposable income, is way more active,
is more receptive to new things, than the previous generation was. I am almost there.
I make far more than my parents ever did, I do change brands and I am aware of cultural change. It's sad that (supposedly) college-trained media buyers don't see this, or don't want to. Then, add to this the lack of emphasis many radio companies place on actually training their sales staffs...that companies would rather change format than work to re-educate misconceptions formed in the minds of media buyers. (Oh my God! We might offend the agency!) I have worked with salespeople who can't grasp the concept that a station's signal coverage can affect it's Arbitron ratings! One would think this concept would be taught by sales managements.

Television gripes and complains about constantly smaller audiences year after year. Certainly, cable, satellite and the general compression of markets play into part of this.
But, it's also a fact that each year, the "pie" of 18-34 year olds and 18-49 year olds
shrinks. If you're targeting an audience that gets smaller every year, so, too will your audience shares.

Yet, I'm a realist. Until and unless some company makes a huge profit targeting the over 50 crowd and becomes the darling of Madison Avenue, we have to live with what we live with. I grew up in the 70's. I've got no problem with Classic Hits or Classic Rock or whatever radio chooses. Hopefully, the additional channels HD will provide will allow for some "traditional" oldies stations to exist. I still believe in the format. Stations are only abandoning them because they "don't make as much money as they used to". But, quite a few were/are still turning a profit that would have been considered good by pre-consolidation standards.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about what comes after Classic Hits/Rock goes away. The disposable Pop music of the 90's and beyond (of which you can only find a handful of songs that test with a mass appeal audience), combined with the polarized music of today could prove to be a challenge for radio programmers. Guess we'll see.

 

[RadioMan203]

Instead of going through the thread b**ching about radio music the way it should or shouldn't be programmed, maybe clearer definitions of the words: OLDIES, CLASSIC ROCK, & CLASSIC HITS would be more in sync with the audience you're looking for?

Good point, but I've heard stations that are all over the ballpark as far as what is "normally" defined as "Classic Rock" and "Classic Hits". Hell, I heard a Jazz station out of New York playing tracks that are more rock-based instead of Jazz. This is either an attempt to see what their listeners will tolerate or they have stretched what they have defined as boundaries for the format and I slowly testing the waters on how to expand/enhance their format. When I hear stations homogenize their format into a blend of several defined formats it makes me wonder if they know who they're trying to target as listeners.

What bothers me more are some of the terrible screaming ads that show up in the middle of the spot clusters. Some are national/some are local---but a lot them are completely 'out of touch with the audience that's enjoying the format!' With 2 or 3 'screamers' in succession...I usually switch to a similar station or turn my radio off in favor of a CD.

Maybe the problem ISN'T the music programming, but what comes in-between?

This is true not only for the music format stations, but even from talkers as well. With a regular sampling of AM and a few FM talkers you'll occasionally hear an ad that makes no sense considering the target audience. Since I would venture to say talkradio is at least a 30+ listen, easily a 40+ audience and surely a 50+ target I would venture to guess the oldsters wouldn't tolerate the screaming sales pitch type ads.. One screaming ad is enough to make the iPod/CD/netstream come back on my speakers.

I could bring up the jocks who know nothing about the format (but pretend they do), but with so many of them 'voice tracked' in order to save money...it probably doesn't matter to a PD, GM or Sales Manager?

Some have said that voicetracking is going to be the saving grace of terrestrial radio, but I really wonder about that. Sure, some of the voicetracked stations in my own area sound close to live but it takes the spontaneity out of radio (I love calling in traffic reports to hear the mistakes added when they slug the updated report into their on-air system).

Bill

 

[Oldbones]

I do, however, think the advertising business is being extremely short-sighted about
the lack of "value" it places today on people over 50. There are major studies out which show today's group of 50-somethings has far more disposable income, is way more active,
is more receptive to new things, than the previous generation was. I am almost there.
I make far more than my parents ever did, I do change brands and I am aware of cultural change. It's sad that (supposedly) college-trained media buyers don't see this, or don't want to. Then, add to this the lack of emphasis many radio companies place on actually training their sales staffs...that companies would rather change format than work to re-educate misconceptions formed in the minds of media buyers.

I agree that we boomers are very different in that regard than our parents' generation, but this concept hasn't trickled down to the media buyers yet. Hopefully, they will see the light and realize there's money to be made off us if it's done right. There is however some basis for the belief that 50+ folk are less easily swayed than younger ones who haven't formed buying habits yet. As far as training sales staff...some companies "get it", others don't. Again, you're trying to make advertisers part with their money....if they aren't interested in what you're selling they ain't gonna buy!! Sometimes it's easier to teach a pig to sing than it is to "re-educate misconceptions".

As to what this means to the oldies format is less clear, especially pre-British invasion music. The current emphasis on 1964-1980 is pretty much on the mark...I'm 56 and frankly am not interested in much pre-1962 music...I don't miss it at all.
As others have noted, oldies isn't necessarily a slam dunk for the boomers anyway...many of us listen to more contemporary tunes, country or news/talk.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about what comes after Classic Hits/Rock goes away. The disposable Pop music of the 90's and beyond (of which you can only find a handful of songs that test with a mass appeal audience), combined with the polarized music of today could prove to be a challenge for radio programmers. Guess we'll see.

Very true...fragmentation of tastes began to set in with the rise of album rock in the 70s, and has only snowballed since then. By the mid-80s there was almost no such thing as a mass-appeal hit. Look at the lack of success for 80s or alternative gold formats. Despite the music being 25+ years old, there's not enough audience for any particular genre to make for a successful format, and people who liked altrock most likely didn't care for Def Leppard, Wham! or Madonna (and vice versa). Even "Jack" and it's clones, despite a big initial splash is likely to crash just as fast.

 

[radioman1380]

My advice for your Internet radio station...play what sounds good to you. If you've been in radio for a good number of years, then you know what sounds good. I have an Internet station myself and I'm playing what I like and what fits my concept for the type of station I want (it's like an easy listening country). That's what's good about Internet radio. When all these 'corporate' stations program their bland, generic crap with no personalities, people are going to tune to where they can get the music they like. Not just what they're subjected to by corporate radio. Certainly, most Internet stations don't have the personalities, but they can provide a different approach to the music programming that terrestrial stations wouldn't consider.

I worked at an Oldies station and am an Oldies fan. But I've found in researching the charts that there are a lot of songs that made the Top 40 charts that really didn't deserve to be there and, probably, won't get you much listenership now. With the world of Internet radio, you're reaching a very narrow niche audience, but it's there. And, it's not necessary to be 'mass appeal'. I told my wife this past weekend that there will be an audience for Oldies music up to the very last Baby Boomer and, possibly, even after since there are 'youngsters' that appreciate music from the 50's and 60's. So, if the terrestrial stations can no longer support the format, today's technology allows it to be accessed elsewhere. Commercial stations ARE looking at the bottom line, but all too often at the expense of the listener. Some stations are and will continue to program 'niche' formats. But there are always going to be those listeners that are not being served because there's no money in providing a particular format to them. That's where the Internet radio stations can provide the 'micro-niche' formats. Hey...there's still people who like classical music, the original Oldies music!

I hope that you'll find, just as I have, that after years of working where others have done the programming, I can now do it myself and I'm finding that people from all over the world are liking what I'm doing. It's doing so well, I'm about to start another Internet station that will be Oldies, but a more narrow time period than your's.

Have fun and good luck!

 

[Radio_Realist]

Speaking only for myself (though I suspect that there are a great many other people who feel the same way), I like the musical style of songs from many different eras. I enjoy hearing songs I remember from the 60's, but what I'd really like to hear are new songs in the styles of those earlier eras. When I go to places with live bands, some of my favorite bands are the ones that perform newly written songs in older styles.

For example, I liked the music of the Four Seasons from the early 1960's. And, I like "Uptown Girl" by Billy Joel when it came out because it was some a great homage to that old style of music. Tracey Ullman's "They Don't Know About Love" was a similar homage to the Leslie Gore / Peggy March style. I think that a station that plays 1960's oldies should include those songs, and others like them, even if they weren't recorded during the target years of the format.

I am not aware of any station that has tried it, but I believe that a station that plays a solid core of well-known (and well-liked) songs from any era that supplements that playlist with additional songs that have the same stylistic sound will do well in the ratings. More than one or two such songs an hour would be too many. But playing "deep cuts" from popular album of an era that might not have been the ones selected for an airplay push by the record label could help keep a vintage music format station sounding fresh.

 

[skippertthomas]

Matt... Go get 'em... Passion for a niched audience is half the battle in succeeding.. Alot of "Gen-1" Oldies formats have died due to 'attitude in ownership, sales, and presentation (formatics)'....

1...I am not anti-Jack, but it's a different demo and psychographic....
2...If you "Jock It" and present it with the major elements of sound that the original Top-40 had, when it was new, then add the modern clean air-processing with some modern formatic structure that does not take the 'legendary sound' away from the original presentation, there is another 30 %...
3...If you then put the icing on the formatic cake with an invovled station in the community (with listeners and non-listeners), add another 10 %...
4...Don't sound like cardboard (music with out the bells and whistles)...HAVE FUN! That's the remaining 10 %...

"Skipper T. Thomas"
E'ville, Indiana

 

[DougD]

My oldies format is a hybrid of what I call "the chart" (Oldies chart from mediabase) which has the old tired songs one must play to get good ratings, and what I feel is the true oldies format which includes a lot of 50s "birth of rock" music as well as the 60s lost hits type of stuff.

So anyway, here is the listen link: www.oldiesradionet.com/oldies56.asx

would appreciate your comments!

Matt...

Thanks for the link. OK station, would much prefer the 50s and early 60s--which, according to this forum, makes me odd indeed. It is true that in the 1960s we did not listen to music of the 1920s, but some of us really enjoyed the big band sounds of the 30s and 40s (and still do), but there was no outlet--or not one that I remember.

Interestingly, during the 50s and 60s, there were far fewer stations and little variety. Most of the Top 40s played the same songs.

Radio really expanded formats during the late 80s where many markets added oldies stations.

So there's greater variety now, supposedly. But no more oldies. So much for diversity of formats.

 

[DougD]

(note: this isn't new----think back to the sixties........there was ZERO advertising aimed at people over 55 then..........same with the seventies and the eighties)

Maybe that's true but AT LEAST THERE WAS MUSIC ON THE RADIO THAT APPEALED TO OLDER DEMOS- not just to the teens.

BOBBY DARIN, for example, cut rock sides as well as songs appealing to the adult market, such as BEYOND THE SEA.

You heard other great artists such as LOUIS ARMSTORNG, DEAN MARTIN, SAMMY DAVIS JR., FRANK SINATRA, etc.

There's almost none of that now. Even the supposed "oldies" stations won't touch those songs that were big charters in the 60s.

 

[fred flintstone]

Top 40 stations did play adult music mixed with rock during the day and went more to hard rock at night.
But they were targeting young adults - under 35 - during the day; teens at night.
Of course, when you're a teenager 34 seems old.
And remember, don't trust anyone over 30.

Demographics as a research and marketing concept was not established until the 60s (although markets had an implicit understanding that some products are for younger people; some for older consumers). Demographic audience ratings were not available until the end of the decade (about the same time FM started to take off). All radio statons and ad buyers had before that was overall (what we know call 12+) numbers; so radio stations tried to appeal to as broad an audience as possible to get higher overall numbers. And we are taking about universe that is mostly AM radio (with AM simulcasts on FM plus maybe a few elevator music or classical stations around). The pie had a lot fewer slices.

The audience has changed, too. Teens were more likely to stick through a standard recording to hear the music they wanted; and adults were willing to put up with some rock. Now people are used to narrow formatting and quicker to tune out. Same thing with TV. Now nobody who wants to see the Beatles or Elvis will sit through a dancing bear, a ballet number and Topo Gigio.

 

[DougD]

Top 40 stations did play adult music mixed with rock during the day and went more to hard rock at night.
But they were targeting young adults - under 35 - during the day; teens at night.
Of course, when you're a teenager 34 seems old.
And remember, don't trust anyone over 30.

Demographics as a research and marketing concept was not established until the 60s (although markets had an implicit understanding that some products are for younger people; some for older consumers). Demographic audience ratings were not available until the end of the decade (about the same time FM started to take off). All radio statons and ad buyers had before that was overall (what we know call 12+) numbers; so radio stations tried to appeal to as broad an audience as possible to get higher overall numbers. And we are taking about universe that is mostly AM radio (with AM simulcasts on FM plus maybe a few elevator music or classical stations around). The pie had a lot fewer slices.

The audience has changed, too. Teens were more likely to stick through a standard recording to hear the music they wanted; and adults were willing to put up with some rock. Now people are used to narrow formatting and quicker to tune out. Same thing with TV. Now nobody who wants to see the Beatles or Elvis will sit through a dancing bear, a ballet number and Topo Gigio.

I recall in 1980 or so calling a major Top 40 FM and requesting some songs. They acted like they'd never heard of the songs - DON"T DO ME LIKE THAT (Tom Petty), LET MY LOVE OPEN THE DOOR (Pete Townsend).
This station said those songs attracted mainly teens, which they weren't interested in. ????

This station which is now light hits 104 FM (100kw in a metro area) used to distribute its top charts in record areas of dept. stores.
The latter song was way up on its chart. Funny, and I'm not a Who fan by any means, the station only added the song (and very reluctantly) when it hit No. 4, or in the top 10.

Still, it playeed STREISAND'S WOMAN IN LOVE and other such drek like every half hour.

 

[Radio_Realist]

"Maybe that's true but AT LEAST THERE WAS MUSIC ON THE RADIO THAT APPEALED TO OLDER DEMOS- not just to the teens."

Don't forget, back then companies were only allowed to one one AM and one FM station. So every station on the air was in competition with every other station except their one sister station on the other band.

Contrast that with cities today where two or three companies own all the stations. The strategy now is to carve up the audience among all the stations one company owns, not to get everybody to listen to just one station. So the modern broadcasting cluster of stations uses one station to reach one segment, another station to reach another segment, and so on.

 

[cyberdad]

Top 40 stations did play adult music mixed with rock during the day and went more to hard rock at night.
But they were targeting young adults - under 35 - during the day; teens at night.

Yeah...Station I listened to a lot in college, KSTT out of Davenport, IA did that. The theory was "Tone it down when the kids are all in school". Perry Como segues into Motown, etc. Then along came Bobby Rich, who fixed all that.

 

[Radio_Realist]

I do, however, think the advertising business is being extremely short-sighted about
the lack of "value" it places today on people over 50. There are major studies out which show today's group of 50-somethings has far more disposable income, is way more active,
is more receptive to new things, than the previous generation was.

You are quite correct that the aging Baby Boomers of the early 20th century are as good a market now as we were when we were teens and twenty-somethings in the 1960's. Advertisers should reach out to us in order to sell products. However, though we're a great target for advertisers in general, there are other media that reach us better than radio does. To sell stuff to aging Baby Boomers, direct mail, print media, cable television and other media tend to all work better than radio, except for talk radio. The studies I've seen indicate that Aging Baby Boomers might put an oldies station on the radio as background music, but they only use it as sonic wallpaper, and don't pay any attention to it. They tend to limit their active listening to the radio to spoken word formats.

 

[Anyacat]

(note: this isn't new----think back to the sixties........there was ZERO advertising aimed at people over 55 then..........same with the seventies and the eighties)

Maybe that's true but AT LEAST THERE WAS MUSIC ON THE RADIO THAT APPEALED TO OLDER DEMOS- not just to the teens.

BOBBY DARIN, for example, cut rock sides as well as songs appealing to the adult market, such as BEYOND THE SEA.

You heard other great artists such as LOUIS ARMSTORNG, DEAN MARTIN, SAMMY DAVIS JR., FRANK SINATRA, etc.

There's almost none of that now. Even the supposed "oldies" stations won't touch those songs that were big charters in the 60s.

Actually, the former RealOldies did quite a bit of that (I know, I sound like a broken record)--but really the programming was special.

 

[KevinFodor]

I do, however, think the advertising business is being extremely short-sighted about
the lack of "value" it places today on people over 50. There are major studies out which show today's group of 50-somethings has far more disposable income, is way more active,
is more receptive to new things, than the previous generation was. I am almost there.
I make far more than my parents ever did, I do change brands and I am aware of cultural change. It's sad that (supposedly) college-trained media buyers don't see this, or don't want to. Then, add to this the lack of emphasis many radio companies place on actually training their sales staffs...that companies would rather change format than work to re-educate misconceptions formed in the minds of media buyers.

I agree that we boomers are very different in that regard than our parents' generation, but this concept hasn't trickled down to the media buyers yet. Hopefully, they will see the light and realize there's money to be made off us if it's done right. There is however some basis for the belief that 50+ folk are less easily swayed than younger ones who haven't formed buying habits yet. As far as training sales staff...some companies "get it", others don't. Again, you're trying to make advertisers part with their money....if they aren't interested in what you're selling they ain't gonna buy!! Sometimes it's easier to teach a pig to sing than it is to "re-educate misconceptions".

As to what this means to the oldies format is less clear, especially pre-British invasion music. The current emphasis on 1964-1980 is pretty much on the mark...I'm 56 and frankly am not interested in much pre-1962 music...I don't miss it at all.
As others have noted, oldies isn't necessarily a slam dunk for the boomers anyway...many of us listen to more contemporary tunes, country or news/talk.

Frankly, I'm more concerned about what comes after Classic Hits/Rock goes away. The disposable Pop music of the 90's and beyond (of which you can only find a handful of songs that test with a mass appeal audience), combined with the polarized music of today could prove to be a challenge for radio programmers. Guess we'll see.

Very true...fragmentation of tastes began to set in with the rise of album rock in the 70s, and has only snowballed since then. By the mid-80s there was almost no such thing as a mass-appeal hit. Look at the lack of success for 80s or alternative gold formats. Despite the music being 25+ years old, there's not enough audience for any particular genre to make for a successful format, and people who liked altrock most likely didn't care for Def Leppard, Wham! or Madonna (and vice versa). Even "Jack" and it's clones, despite a big initial splash is likely to crash just as fast.

You're very correct about fragmentation...believe me, I learned it the hard way. I was the first programmer to try 80's hits (in Columbus, Ohio). The real problem with the format is that, with 80's hits, you actually have 2 components. 80's rock/pop and 80's dance. Being from an oldies programming background, I tried (logically thinking in 1998) to mix the best of the 2. Can't be done. Each component reaches 2 separate parts of the demo and their tastes are pretty separated. Outside of a couple of titles from the likes of a Madonna or Prince, the rock crowd pretty much wants to stick with the Mellencamps, Huey Lewis, Springsteen, etc. However, 80's rock does not include much of the glam metal bands, a few titles here and there, but not much. The format still lives...(we've got an 80's station that's been making money for 6 years now), but it's clearly a boutique format serving a niche audience. It appears Alan Burns new "Movin" format is targeting the 80's dance crowd, which was actually a bit younger (graduating around 1988 and into the 80's/90's dance music).

Most 90's music? Outside of the dance product, it's DOA. You're lucky to find more than a dozen or two titles that will work. I can't see where it will ever support a format. But, time will tell.