Interesting result from Tropo signal

[cd637299]

^ Related----I know that the folk at WPVI DT 6 are not exactly enthralled at being on 6 for DT, but there is nowhere else for them to go. *Is* WPVI on a subchannel of any co-owned Philly station?

cd

 

[tripinva]

No, WPVI is only on 6.

- Trip

 

[necrat123]

IIRC this arose out of 9/11. All the main digital transmitters were on the WTC, and thus went off the air in the attacks. But WNYW had a backup digital transmitter on the ESB. They were able to configure it to carry a second program, and they used that second program to carry WWOR. They never turned it off, and eventually added a simulcast in the other direction. I suppose they figure that's redundancy in case of a failure of the WNYW transmitter. And that sometimes, due to questionable indoor antennas, you can get one station but not another even though they transmit from the same site. (so if your antenna isn't up to receiving the WNYW transmitter, you can still watch WNYW over WWOR's transmitter)

WNYW-DT was never on the World Trade Center. They operated from day 1 on Empire. WWOR was on WTC, however (along with WNBC-DT, and WPIX-DT., WNBC-DT signging on merely four days prior to the attacks. The field engineer from Thales had all his test gear in the WNBC room from the commissioning of the transmitter, and still has his temporary "badge") WPXN and WNJU were also there.

WNYW has operated with a directional pattern also from day 1, protecting other stations. I believe the dual redundancy has to do with the building penetration in the city. Some areas get a better signal of WNYW from their side mount than they do of WWOR, which is on the UHF master antenna.

I kept very good records of who was broadcasting where back then, prior to, and up to , 2001, and have a accurate list of who was on the WTC.

The other odd note, that WWOR is the only VHF Hi Band station in NYC to remain on UHF. WABC, WPIX and WNET all returned to their VHF hi band former channels.

 

[KML0224]

Wasn't it that WCBS-TV was the only one who had a full-powered analog backup at ESB on 9/11?

 

[RonTheEngineer]

Wasn't it that WCBS-TV was the only one who had a full-powered analog backup at ESB on 9/11?

Yes, someone "accidentally" renewed the lease, kinda worked out in the end.

 

[mysticnitekatt]

Which raises the question: could a formerly analog UHF like WFXT or WMFP inform ADVERTISERS that no Boston station is in fact broadcasting on its heritage VHF channel?

WMFP doesn't sell local advertising - they have no sales department - they are just a shack and a transmitter.

 

[necrat123]

Wasn't it that WCBS-TV was the only one who had a full-powered analog backup at ESB on 9/11?

Yes, someone "accidentally" renewed the lease, kinda worked out in the end.

I still say that is an urban legend. How do you "accidently" renew a lease for that much money?
It was so long ago, we'll never know. It amazes me , though, that after the 1993 bombing, that more stations
didn't think to have full power backups ready to go "off site". I wonder how much TV gear still exists at Alpine?

 

[RonTheEngineer]

I still say that is an urban legend. How do you "accidently" renew a lease for that much money?
It was so long ago, we'll never know. It amazes me , though, that after the 1993 bombing, that more stations
didn't think to have full power backups ready to go "off site". I wonder how much TV gear still exists at Alpine?

You would be surprised... many companies choose to "walk past dollars to pick up dimes". It's not worth their time or effort to fight it, think about it, or expend the effort. I can see a lease like that making it through the CBS organization unquestioned. I used to work for them. There might have been an automatic renewal clause too.

Two cases in point... my station had a 5 yr lease signed to be on Booth Hill Trumbull during the very early days of DTV. The company chose to keep paying it than to negotiate an early release.

Same of my sister station in Boston. Analog went away in 2009. They didn't move out of One Beacon till the lease ran out in 2011. Again, you can negotiate an early release from these leases... usually 1/2 or so of the remaining term.

But, that might be why that particular company is no longer in the TV business.

 

[RonTheEngineer]

WMFP doesn't sell local advertising - they have no sales department - they are just a shack and a transmitter.

Your axe grinding is getting a little sad and annoying, you really have no clue what you're talking about. It's gotten noticed, and not in the good way.

WMFP has a state of the art transmitter (2 cabinet Thales Paragon) in a state of the art facility (albeit the tower itself is rather old) in Needham.

They recently moved from One Beacon to a brand new office and master control in Peabody. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm sure its 500% better than One Beacon.

 

[whdh1920]

Now i must ask if there in such great facilities why can't they get a sales staff and people in there to clear the whole schedule????

 

[RonTheEngineer]

Now i must ask if there in such great facilities why can't they get a sales staff and people in there to clear the whole schedule????

Will YOU be paying them?

That is not the business model they choose to pursue at this time.

 

[whdh1920]

oh i c if i had the money i would do that Boston deserves me tv full time!!

 

[Uncle Kaimbridge]

WCVB is on channel 20. WNYW is on channel 44...

Yes I forgot they are on different RF channels... BUT... if by some miracle that 2 20's or 5's or 44's came in, my original answer would hold.

My suggestion, especially for data bases (hi Doug! ), is to append
the virtual channel with the CALLs (since the virtual is just ID
dressing), with the rf channel being “-”ed: E.g., WCVB:5-20.
In the case of virtual = rf, either do it the same way or
as “:-#”: E.g., WPVI:6-6 or WPVI:-6.
The question I have is, why do the actual rf subchannels start
at .3, not .1, for most stations?

 

[w9wi]

Yeah, we probably do need a standard for that, in those few situations where the RF channel matters. (generally, when the discussion is technical in nature)

The "RF subchannel" number you see on Trip's site, and on many receivers when no PSIP remapping data is being transmitted, is the MPEG "program number". *All* MPEG transport streams (that are accomplishing anything..) have at least one program number; there's a metadata table that tracks which streams are associated with which program. Even if you don't have PSIP -- you don't have remapping -- you still have to map streams to program numbers. That's the only way the decoder knows which audio stream goes with which video stream.

The PSIP remapping data basically assigns a complete virtual channel number with a specific program number. 7.1 maps to program 3 on RF channel 42; 7.2 maps to program 4.

I can't say I know why these program numbers usually start with 3. When we installed our equipment, Thales (the vendor) recommended we start there. Program #0 is reserved for a "Network Information Table" but 1 and 2 should be valid. (and as I think you've noticed, some stations use 1 and/or 2)

 

[DTV-Chief]

WCVB is on channel 20. WNYW is on channel 44...

Yes I forgot they are on different RF channels... BUT... if by some miracle that 2 20's or 5's or 44's came in, my original answer would hold.

My suggestion, especially for data bases (hi Doug! ), is to append
the virtual channel with the CALLs (since the virtual is just ID
dressing), with the rf channel being “-”ed: E.g., WCVB:5-20.
In the case of virtual = rf, either do it the same way or
as “:-#”: E.g., WPVI:6-6 or WPVI:-6.
The question I have is, why do the actual rf subchannels start
at .3, not .1, for most stations?

FCC Rule 73.682(d) requires DTV stations to comply with ATSC standards, and ATSC A/65C at one time reserved minor channel numbers 1 and 2 for other services. Stations followed those restrictions when originally setting up their PSIP tables. Any change could adversely affect reception by the majority of digital receivers, requiring mass rescanning to reacquire the station. Obviously stations are reluctant to cause any such interruption.

 

[dx1ng]

I think this is the first time I have ever heard about someone being able to DX a tv station since the changeover to digital.

I have been pleasantly surprised at the DX possibilities with digital TV. I purchased a converter box in April 2009 with a government coupon and stuck a UHF antenna up on the roof, hoping to get New York City here in Poughkeepsie. Well, New York was in quite well on many channels, but by the end of April I picked up WUND in North Carolina at over 400 miles! That summer, there was a strong Boston opening with most of the Boston stations in excellently, including WHDH on both ch 7 and ch 42. (over-riding a 20,000 local analog translator on ch 42). I was hooked. I never cease to be surprised at what Digital TV DX is possible. And one thing I love about digital DX, is that if you're receiving a station, you have the same perfect quality picture, whether the station is a local, 200 miles away, 400 miles away, or even over 1000 miles away!

 

[Skynet74]

Digital is wild like that. Perfect quality as long as there is a signal. Growing up I lived about 50 miles South of Boston. I used to play around non-stop with our indoor antenna so I could watch those channels. It was so frustrating. I finally convinced my dad to put up a roof antenna. Reception was a little better. Not much though since the antenna itself wasn't even that great. But now since the switch to digital, the quality is incredible! I don't know all the specifics as to how this technological advance just makes snow vanish. But it really is pretty amazing.

 

[tripinva]

Here's a technical explanation of why, regarding the Program Number. http://www.rabbitears.info/blog/index.php?post/2011/09/12/Thoughts-on-the-ATSC-Standard-and-Program_Numbers

- Trip