IS CLASSIC ROCK DEAD IN LA?

[justpassingthough]

I've posted about this before in the CHR board, of all places, but the death or near death of alternative stations in many large markets should be of grave concern to classic rock stations. They may target different audiences, but most of the music that classic rock now draws from the 90s got it start thanks to alternative stations willing to take a chance. What will classic rock play in 10 or 15 years if there are so few alternative stations to break today's rock music?

Sure, classic rock does great amongst men 25 to 54 today- men born between 1957 and 1986- and it skews towards the older end of the demo. In ten years, when its target audience was born between 1967 and 1996- their focus will have to largely be music made between 1984 and today- and you're looking at a narrower and narrower rock music landscape, and you're focused on an audience that is much more likely to view pop and hip hop as the music of their youth.

I think this all signals long term problems for the classic rock format.

 

[Uncle Rob]

This is a lot of complaining about a format that is "classic". In other words, the vast majority of the music is old and the core artists at this format are no longer making records or having massive hit records like they once did. Some of them are no longer alive. What do you expect out of a format thats "classic"? How do you keep it fresh and keep listeners? Its a nearly impossible task.

To keep cume up, you have to play the songs that people are familiar with- and not deep album cuts that a handful of listeners love, but the majority have never heard before. The coffin on Rock music was being hoisted into a place over the last 10 years- there are no longer artists like there were from the 80s and 90s that are making massive records and getting crossover airplay at CHR or gaining mainstream acceptance through MTV. So, yes, the format is dying in that regard. A few Foo Fighters hits intermittently sprinkled throughout a decade won't save a format that is based upon guitar driven rock that frankly doesn't exist anymore.

The complaining is that they keep playing the same songs/artists over and over and over and ov ........ you get the idea. Would the Universe collapse if KLOS didn't play The Who's "Who Are You?" for the cajillionith time and replaced it with some other song we haven't heard in ages? There is so much to choose from. I could sit here all day and ask "When was the last time you heard .........on the radio?" And you wouldn't be able to tell me. (Of course then you'd have that song stuck in your head all day.)

And before the Sound came along where else would you tune to hear classic rock? Jack FM plays a lot of classic rock, but with other stuff thrown in as well. (For the record, I do like Jack and think the "Hybrid-type format" is the future of classic rock being that AOR is effectively dead.And for anyone wanting to argue that point name me a bunch of current AOR bands that ARE NOT Classic Rockers.)

As for the deep cuts comment i'd argue that one. If you are talking todays music i'd agree, but back in "our" day we bought 45's and albums. We'd listen to the entire album. About half the people I know if you ask a favorite song from their favorite band would mention a non hit song or "deep cut" off the album for whatever memory it brought back. But there are plenty of songs people are familiar with that do not get airplay so I don't think they'd tune out.

With todays music they don't need to buy the whole album. They can buy just one song. When we were young and we heard something that we'd like we'd try to hear everything we could from that band. With today's young people that isn't the case. (If you want to argue I have a 17 year old niece that lives with me. Her and her friends are all the proof I need.) While the music has the same meaning to them as it did for us, it's a whole different ball game. For us we basically had radio and our friends. Now you have the internet. You can hear any song from any band whenever you want. We didn't have that. And we couldn't really download one song, we either bought the 45 or the album. Now they can pick and choose. It's totally different. (Not complaining just showing the differences.)

KLOS has to learn that if they skip a Who/Zeppelin/Stones/Boston/ad nauseam song every now and then and replace with some other hit that we haven't heard in years/decades that the Universe will not collapse and life will continue. Plus it would be fun to hear about all the phone calls they get from people saying "Whoa dude, that totally blew my mind, I haven't heard that song in ages." It's not brain surgery, it's just music.

 

[Uncle Rob]

Documented proof that they play the same 12 songs by the same 10 artists, please. Please use Mediabase as your source.

Perception is reality.

If your listener thinks you play the same 12 songs by the same 10 artists it doesn't matter what you or Mediabase have to say about it.

Then how do you combat that perception without playing a bunch of stiffs that only record collectors know? Or do you just kiss off the people like Uncle Rob as the minority of the listenership they are?

First off there are plenty of songs out there that are not "stiffs". Secondly, with the amount of people that are tuning out radio and tuning in their Ipods or the internet. Doesn't sound like i'm in the minority. But keep your head in those papers telling you that the listener is wrong, and keep losing listeners. That'll show them.

 

[justpassingthough]

This is a lot of complaining about a format that is "classic". In other words, the vast majority of the music is old and the core artists at this format are no longer making records or having massive hit records like they once did. Some of them are no longer alive. What do you expect out of a format thats "classic"? How do you keep it fresh and keep listeners? Its a nearly impossible task.

To keep cume up, you have to play the songs that people are familiar with- and not deep album cuts that a handful of listeners love, but the majority have never heard before. The coffin on Rock music was being hoisted into a place over the last 10 years- there are no longer artists like there were from the 80s and 90s that are making massive records and getting crossover airplay at CHR or gaining mainstream acceptance through MTV. So, yes, the format is dying in that regard. A few Foo Fighters hits intermittently sprinkled throughout a decade won't save a format that is based upon guitar driven rock that frankly doesn't exist anymore.

The complaining is that they keep playing the same songs/artists over and over and over and ov ........ you get the idea. Would the Universe collapse if KLOS didn't play The Who's "Who Are You?" for the cajillionith time and replaced it with some other song we haven't heard in ages? There is so much to choose from. I could sit here all day and ask "When was the last time you heard .........on the radio?" And you wouldn't be able to tell me. (Of course then you'd have that song stuck in your head all day.)

And before the Sound came along where else would you tune to hear classic rock? Jack FM plays a lot of classic rock, but with other stuff thrown in as well. (For the record, I do like Jack and think the "Hybrid-type format" is the future of classic rock being that AOR is effectively dead.And for anyone wanting to argue that point name me a bunch of current AOR bands that ARE NOT Classic Rockers.)

As for the deep cuts comment i'd argue that one. If you are talking todays music i'd agree, but back in "our" day we bought 45's and albums. We'd listen to the entire album. About half the people I know if you ask a favorite song from their favorite band would mention a non hit song or "deep cut" off the album for whatever memory it brought back. But there are plenty of songs people are familiar with that do not get airplay so I don't think they'd tune out.

With todays music they don't need to buy the whole album. They can buy just one song. When we were young and we heard something that we'd like we'd try to hear everything we could from that band. With today's young people that isn't the case. (If you want to argue I have a 17 year old niece that lives with me. Her and her friends are all the proof I need.) While the music has the same meaning to them as it did for us, it's a whole different ball game. For us we basically had radio and our friends. Now you have the internet. You can hear any song from any band whenever you want. We didn't have that. And we couldn't really download one song, we either bought the 45 or the album. Now they can pick and choose. It's totally different. (Not complaining just showing the differences.)

KLOS has to learn that if they skip a Who/Zeppelin/Stones/Boston/ad nauseam song every now and then and replace with some other hit that we haven't heard in years/decades that the Universe will not collapse and life will continue. Plus it would be fun to hear about all the phone calls they get from people saying "Whoa dude, that totally blew my mind, I haven't heard that song in ages." It's not brain surgery, it's just music.

I completely agree with what you said, but you're missing my point, in that the audience that bought and listened to every song on a Led Zeppelin album from the early 70s is reaching a point when they will fall out of the demographic and the format will no longer be salable if it doesn't go after younger listeners who don't have the same attachment to a less than popular song off of Led Zeppelin III. So its either diversify and go for quality of music and audience or program towards the lowest common denominator and actually attract listeners- even if they don't listen for hours at a time...

 

[Marv-L.A.]

It would be interesting to know which station between JACK. KLOS, The Sound & KROQ typically plays the largest number of songs in any given week.

I listen to JACK a lot, and it would appear to me that they rarely play any song more than once every 20 hours or so.

Unless KLOS's nbilling numbers have plunged far more than the rest of the market in the past 12-36 months, I'm not sure why they'd flip, since there just aren't that many options out there.

 

[Gregg]

Uncle Rob complains that he doesn't want to hear "Who Are You" for the kajillionth time. He wants a wider range of Classic Rock, not just the rock songs that hit the Top 20 plus the tried and true album cuts.

But that's not Classic Rock. When you hit 35 or 40, you don't want your Classic Rock station to play songs you don't know. Yes, I agree that there's some wiggle room in the number of songs a Classic Rock station plays. Should it be 600, 800 or 1000? Maybe KLOS plays too few. Maybe KSWD is trying to expand that number. But not by much.

My complaint is a different one. I don't like that today's Classic Rock has rewritten history. I think it's wrong that they've eliminated entire catagories of music that we used to hear on Contemporary Rock stations. The Rock format (or AOR) contained large amounts of songs deemed too soft or too pop to play now.

Gone from Classic Rock are virtually all female acts. A few Pat Benatar, Fleetwood Mac and Heart songs still air but not a lot. Let's remember that Carole King had the #1 album of all time till Frampton Comes Alive.

Also missing are many acts now deemed too pop. Gone are Huey Lewis, Hall & Oates, Chicago. Minimized are Billy Joel, Elton John, James Taylor.

And also gone are most 80s New Wave acts... GoGos, Eurythmics, Depeche Mode. Only U2, REM and Red Hot Chili Peppers seemed to have made it onto Classic Rock playlists.

When watching the Sopranos, Tony often had Q104.3, the NYC Classic Rock station, on in his SUV. I guess he's the target audience now. Classic Rock plays only the songs he wants to hear. Any song that's unfamiliar to Tony Soprano is out. Any song that's too female, too pop or too new wave is out. He wants to hear Who Are You for the kajillionth time.

If you don't like today's Classic Rock format, blame Tony Soprano.


Gregg
[email protected]

 

[uncamark]

My complaint is a different one. I don't like that today's Classic Rock has rewritten history. I think it's wrong that they've eliminated entire catagories of music that we used to hear on Contemporary Rock stations. The Rock format (or AOR) contained large amounts of songs deemed too soft or too pop to play now.

Gone from Classic Rock are virtually all female acts. A few Pat Benatar, Fleetwood Mac and Heart songs still air but not a lot. Let's remember that Carole King had the #1 album of all time till Frampton Comes Alive.

And this can be placed on the shoulders of Lee Abrams and Steve Dahl. When Heftel bought the Loop in Chicago in 1979, Abrams was brought in by Heftel and decided to make the station a test case for a "modal," harder-rocking approach to his Superstars format that kicked out Carole and Carly and Sweet Baby James and Loggins and Messina and replaced them with the heretofore limited (due to little or or no appeal to the upper end of the 18-34 target demo) Ozzy and AC/DC and Judas Priest (he tried punk bands initially, but the metalheads rejected them). Thanks to Steve Dahl's "Disco Demolition" jabs at his former employers at WDAI, the Loop not only was beating Bob Pittman's WKQX (which was basically copying the original Abrams playbook), but in the teenage male demos was beating WLS for the first time in that station's two decades as the Top 40 giant (and when WMET flipped from Top 40 to AOR a few months later, it was more like Abrams' the Loop than its sister stations in NY and LA). Abrams began preaching the modal gospel to his other clients (and airchecks of Dahl's "Disco Demolition" bits) and AOR sent Carole and her friends over to AC. And the formats that splintered from AOR have followed Abrams' mold ever since.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Uncle Rob complains that he doesn't want to hear "Who Are You" for the kajillionth time. He wants a wider range of Classic Rock, not just the rock songs that hit the Top 20 plus the tried and true album cuts.

But that's not Classic Rock. When you hit 35 or 40, you don't want your Classic Rock station to play songs you don't know. Yes, I agree that there's some wiggle room in the number of songs a Classic Rock station plays. Should it be 600, 800 or 1000? Maybe KLOS plays too few. Maybe KSWD is trying to expand that number. But not by much.

My complaint is a different one. I don't like that today's Classic Rock has rewritten history. I think it's wrong that they've eliminated entire catagories of music that we used to hear on Contemporary Rock stations. The Rock format (or AOR) contained large amounts of songs deemed too soft or too pop to play now.

Gone from Classic Rock are virtually all female acts. A few Pat Benatar, Fleetwood Mac and Heart songs still air but not a lot. Let's remember that Carole King had the #1 album of all time till Frampton Comes Alive.

Also missing are many acts now deemed too pop. Gone are Huey Lewis, Hall & Oates, Chicago. Minimized are Billy Joel, Elton John, James Taylor.

And also gone are most 80s New Wave acts... GoGos, Eurythmics, Depeche Mode. Only U2, REM and Red Hot Chili Peppers seemed to have made it onto Classic Rock playlists.

When watching the Sopranos, Tony often had Q104.3, the NYC Classic Rock station, on in his SUV. I guess he's the target audience now. Classic Rock plays only the songs he wants to hear. Any song that's unfamiliar to Tony Soprano is out. Any song that's too female, too pop or too new wave is out. He wants to hear Who Are You for the kajillionth time.

If you don't like today's Classic Rock format, blame Tony Soprano.


Gregg
[email protected]

"Don't Sop Believin'" may be one of Tony's favorite songs, and as you say, his taste doesn't venture out from Top 20 AOR tracks much. But some of us know that even a slick AOR band like Journey had much more substance to them than that, as reflected by the many other songs in their catalog that got significant airplay during the day, and even some (God forbid!) good album cuts. In fact the album cuts on the multi-platinum "Escape" are better than most rock bands' singles.

So in this town there are three stations for Tony and 1/2 of one for Flipper. KCSN's extremely limited signal relegates it to a half station since I can only hear it about half the time (Sorry Sky). But guess what. Even if my half station were to disappear, that doesn't mean that I go back to one of the other three that don't serve me in the first place. I go online, XM, CD collection, music player/Amazon.com, Music Choice, or out-of-market stations. It's like any other product really - radio doesn't serve me; I don't listen to it.

 

[Uncle Rob]

Uncle Rob complains that he doesn't want to hear "Who Are You" for the kajillionth time. He wants a wider range of Classic Rock, not just the rock songs that hit the Top 20 plus the tried and true album cuts.

(scratching head .......... scritch, scritch, scritch) You knock me for wanting Classic Rock radio stations to play more classic rock. Then you complain that Classic Rock radio stations aren't playing more classic rock. I'm missing something here I just know it.

 

[radiobum]

how DOES lee abrams sleep at night or maybe he doesn't know he helped ruin radio ?!

 

[RBB05]

I can't imagine with these paltry numbers that Cumulus is not going to blow the management of KLOS and KABC sky-high. Sad, because I listened to KLOS growing up. Sad how they have let consultants etc, determine the future of the station. Thoughts? Anyone?

Done. Marko Radlovic was shown the door at SBS, and will be taking the reigns at Cumulus LA

 

[uncamark]

how DOES lee abrams sleep at night or maybe he doesn't know he helped ruin radio ?!

His programming stint at XM was considered his penance for "Superstars" (although he says that he did not intend for the format to be so tight--that it was his imitators who made it tighter, which is smiilar to what people said about Bill Drake).

If he (and Allen Shaw's "Rock 'n' Stereo" at the ABC-owned stations) hadn't come along, though, a tighter AOR format was going to come along eventually--too many people in management ere noticing that listeners tired of AM Top 40 were coming to the FM rock stations and getting turned off by too many hippie burnout DJs doing the "it's 9:15, like if you're into time, man" rap and playing absolute crap that was "good" because it was 15 minutes long and by an obscure band (just like so much of what college radio plays today). After all, there are only so many Jim Ladds who are good at free form programming--and free form is a format (or non-format) where it's so easy to be bad.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Although they are still a long way from where I would like them to be, I have to credit the Sound for trying to expand the playlist as much as current formatics will allow. By doing some themed weekends which allows for a bit more creativity, improving the 10@10s, and throwing in what appears to be an album cut every few hours or so, they are at least making an honest attempt.

KLOS on the other hand, seems to becoming as mind-numbingly repetitive as the old Arrow. And while Arrow had their run, we all know how it turned out in the end.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Although they are still a long way from where I would like them to be, I have to credit the Sound for trying to expand the playlist as much as current formatics will allow. By doing some themed weekends which allows for a bit more creativity, improving the 10@10s, and throwing in what appears to be an album cut every few hours or so, they are at least making an honest attempt.

KLOS on the other hand, seems to becoming as mind-numbingly repetitive as the old Arrow. And while Arrow had their run, we all know how it turned out in the end.

Another praiseworthy moment for the Sound. Caught them just at the right time this morning playing "Got My Mojo Workin'" by Muddy Waters (or perhaps it was the Paul Butterfield Blues Band version?). In any case, a great pull. The music may be old, but if it is timeless, it doesn't matter.

I wish they would do this more often. Just think how much more interesting the station could be if they gave everyone a bit more room to be creative, besides just one or two cuts per shift?

 

[Uncle Rob]

Although they are still a long way from where I would like them to be, I have to credit the Sound for trying to expand the playlist as much as current formatics will allow. By doing some themed weekends which allows for a bit more creativity, improving the 10@10s, and throwing in what appears to be an album cut every few hours or so, they are at least making an honest attempt.

KLOS on the other hand, seems to becoming as mind-numbingly repetitive as the old Arrow. And while Arrow had their run, we all know how it turned out in the end.

Another praiseworthy moment for the Sound. Caught them just at the right time this morning playing "Got My Mojo Workin'" by Muddy Waters (or perhaps it was the Paul Butterfield Blues Band version?). In any case, a great pull. The music may be old, but if it is timeless, it doesn't matter.

I wish they would do this more often. Just think how much more interesting the station could be if they gave everyone a bit more room to be creative, besides just one or two cuts per shift?

And I'd be willing to bet they did NOT have a dramatic drop in listeners while that song played. Instead of sitting here writing "I was listening to KLOS today and they played Boston's "More than a feeling" every 20 minutes, it was great." You're hearing things you either (long e) haven't heard in a while or haven't heard at all on the radio. And now look, you're telling everybody about it. The radio station doesn't have to pay for word of mouth advertising and now other people are going to tune in to see what else they are going to play.

It's not brain surgery people it's just radio.

 

[AM FM listener]

As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, The Sound is gaining share but losing cume. So, their wider playlist is attracting fewer listeners but those that listen are listening for a longer time. That seems like a legitimate strategy -- targeting the passionate listener -- which works for KKGO, too. Given LA's demos, classic or album rock is becoming a niche format here, just like country. In other parts of the country, rock and country are huge but here, they are niche. Mass appeal formats can get away with playing the same 20 songs over and over gain. Niche formats, on the other hand, need to be programmed to their loyal listeners with a wider variety of the music they love.

 

[Rusty Muck]

(For the record, I do like Jack and think the "Hybrid-type format" is the future of classic rock being that AOR is effectively dead.And for anyone wanting to argue that point name me a bunch of current AOR bands that ARE NOT Classic Rockers.)

AOR has been dead for close to 30 years now. By 1981, the pop/rock scene fragmented as much as it did, and record execs weren't keen on sending new wave or CHR product to rock stations. And only the existing AOR acts of that period were the only ones (or so it appeared) that put out any new product.

Some stations did rebel. WMMS/Cleveland was the most famous, inserting Madonna, Micheal Jackson and Prince onto an otherwise rock playlist. (And remember, in 1983, that was seismic.) New Wave acts like Tears for Fears, Euthrymics and Thompson Twins then got added. They then "changed" their format designation to "CHR" to appease the record gods and trade papers (but never officially changed format, unlike WPLJ/New York's total abandonment of rock for CHR). Plus, WMMS' newly launched sister station "Z100" WHTZ/New York became the talk of the entire industry, and many of "Z100's" formantics directly rubbed off on WMMS.

It paid off in the ratings, as WMMS, had inconceivably double-digit ratings, driving the market's lone CHR outlet out of business. And it was done with their programmers knowing full well that AOR was dead, and it had to be achieved in a totally different way.

Such a station, such a format could never happen ever again.

 

[uncamark]

It paid off in the ratings, as WMMS, had inconceivably double-digit ratings, driving the market's lone CHR outlet out of business. And it was done with their programmers knowing full well that AOR was dead, and it had to be achieved in a totally different way.

Such a station, such a format could never happen ever again.

Interestingly, the Doubleday stations tried something similar to WMMS with the "RockRadio" concept (complete with jingles, Michael Jackson [albeit when they played "Beat It" the only artist they referred to was Eddie Van Halen] and jocks announcing chart positions of songs) and failed miserably, with the stations reverting back to modal hard rock AOR before Dave Martin became national PD and flipped the stations to AC (and Doubleday disintegrated shortly thereafter). Was the problem that the Doubleday stations weren't as established in their markets as WMMS or didn't have the personality staff that could withstand a seismic shift in the playlist?

 

[Rusty Muck]

It paid off in the ratings, as WMMS, had inconceivably double-digit ratings, driving the market's lone CHR outlet out of business. And it was done with their programmers knowing full well that AOR was dead, and it had to be achieved in a totally different way.

Such a station, such a format could never happen ever again.

Interestingly, the Doubleday stations tried something similar to WMMS with the "RockRadio" concept (complete with jingles, Michael Jackson [albeit when they played "Beat It" the only artist they referred to was Eddie Van Halen] and jocks announcing chart positions of songs) and failed miserably, with the stations reverting back to modal hard rock AOR before Dave Martin became national PD and flipped the stations to AC (and Doubleday disintegrated shortly thereafter).  Was the problem that the Doubleday stations weren't as established in their markets as WMMS or didn't have the personality staff that could withstand a seismic shift in the playlist?

It was both, IMO. WMMS was so established as a rock station by 1983, and already broke David Bowie, Rush, and - with some assistance from WMMR - Bruce Springsteen (uncovering and playing ALL his prior material after they took a chance with "Born To Run," exposing The Boss's entire body of work to a hungry audience). Plus they had made micro-stars out of local rockers: Micheal Stanley, Ian Hunter, Alex Bevan, etc.

The majority of WMMS' staff by 1983 were in their late 20s/early 30s, but the air lineup had been mostly untouched SINCE 1977. They came either from Cleveland State University's radio station WCSB, or from Boston vis-a-vis PD John Gorman and MD Denny Sanders' native ties. So they still could carry along or transition over to play contemporary artists without any problem. Gorman ran the station with a ruthless, militaristic attitude, declaring "war" on WMMS' main competitors and circulating infamous memos meant to pump up the airstaff. Heck, the "bird of prey," a buzzard, became the station mascot, and the centerpiece of an aggressive guerrilla marketing campaign! They found any possible way to get new product on the air, defying most C&Ds and tiptoeing with the law, but almost always came out on top.

So... when record execs gradually began to decline to offer WMMS CHR product because "it doesn't fit with the AOR format," and instead offering only product from established artists like The Moody Blues, Aerosmith, etc., that's where it all began. (When that happened, it could be argued that AOR died, as no new artists were being offered.)

They never used consultants, or did so in a nominal basis so no other station could claim them, thereby sparing them from the wrath of Lee Abrams and his ilk. But it left WMMS in an odd position - they weren't "just an ordinary rock station" but a pop-cultural station. And they were a station seeing artists like Prince, Cindy Lauper and Micheal Jackson pop up on their chief competitor, top 40 WGCL "G98," when WMMS had a sister station in New York - Z100 - explode onto the scene in a matter of months. And the city of Cleveland itself had not been cabled yet, so you couldn't get MTV... the radio dial was the ONLY place for constant new music exposure.

To protect themselves, and to continue the lifespan of the station, WMMS then started adding Madonna and Micheal Jackson to their playlist - and then held many a "classic rock weekend," playing their entire library. (And yes, they also used the Eddie Van Halen tie-in to play "Billy Jean," but then they ended up playing more tracks by MJ on his own accord.) It wasn't without controversy - there were diehard listeners upset, one or two DJs were quietly ticked and kept his feelings hidden for almost 25 years. And a WMMS-sponsored "Jackson 5" reunion concert failed to live up to expectations (that could be more attributed to the tour itself instead). Moreover, brass from WMMS owner Malrite failed to see eye-to-eye with what Gorman and Sanders were doing. Then to finally get even with the record labels and consultants, they began to deliberately report as a CHR for trade papers so they COULD continue to get the new wave and Top 40 product, but never made the *actual* flip to CHR like WPLJ did.

But it paid off in the end. WMMS lasted with that unusual hybrid until late 1989, when under different programmers and a fluctuating lineup, they flipped back to an AOR format. The ratings records they set during that timespan speak for themselves. I doubt it ever could have happened anywhere else.

 

[Skyboyrox]

WMMS is the reason I got into radio. while not my 'consultants', both John Gorman and Kid Leo remain my confidantes.

When we built the Loop in Chicago, it's template was WMMS. Both later devolved into Classic Rock.

The original WMMS remains my main inspriation to this day. "The Weekend Never Ends"...