First of all let me start out by saying this... KSKY is getting blown over by illegal mexican super power stations in Mexico. And the only solution is to run back to FM.... If everyone on AM is going to be switching to FM at least include all of the DFW metro area not just teeny tiny areas of the place. This is the reason why I hate DFW radio. KJSA has been turned into a mexican station! AND I REALLY LIKED THAT STATION!!!!!Like we do not have enough mexican station here in North Texas. Now I have to get my country elsewhere on AM... 4 letters KCLE 1460 out of Burleson that barely makes it enough up to Wise County. They should have left well enough alone at KJSA!
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Is Dallas/FT. Worth AM'S Going Down the drain?
- Thread starter eskipper411
- Start date
scrtr84 said:
Actually it should be ARE Dallas/Ft. Worth's AMs (no apostrophe) going down the drain.
Answer: The AM band has been slowly losing share for the last 30+ years to the FM band. So have the Big 3 TV networks to cable stations. So have the Detroit 3 automakers to the rest of the world. So have newspapers to the internet. So?
longtimelistener said:
Over that time we've seen so many changes to the AM band in D/FW, from move-ins to new stations or substantial power increases. Some daytimers got full-time operation, too. By my count there have been 25 or so changes like that in a little over 20 years, but check these recent developments:
1110 KJSA (250-watt Mineral Wells daytimer on 1120 that switched to 1110 and
increased power to 20,000 watts; has a construction permit for
50,000 watts daytime)
1140 KHFX (was the 250-watt Cleburne station KCLE on 1120 which upgraded to
850 day/710 night then to 5,000 watts daytime; has an
application to increase their daytime power to 25,000 watts)
1220 KZEE (500-watt daytime Weatherford station that now has a CP to
increase power to 1,600 day/200 night)
1480 KNIT (just received approval to increase to 50,000 watts
daytime)
scrtr84 said:
I guess we've got some people who are slow on the uptake.
jd said:
I think the comment on the AM band going down to the drain refers to, outside KTCK, no AM station in this market has meaningful audience of people under 55. Since the AM dial had become largely the domain of talk and brokered programming, the future for it doesn't look great unless those trends somehow reverse and younger folks start flocking to it.
It's been discussed several times before, but a fairly large number of heritage AM signals in other markets have been migrating to FM to keep the brand viable for the future on a band that allows them exposure to under 55 audiences. Some of these AM facilities are stronger than the FM facility (i.e. KCBS 740 San Francisco adding FM simulcast KIFR 106.9; KSL Salt Lake City adding FM simulcast KSL-FM 102.7; etc.).
There are a whole lot of AMs in this market that have little or zero measurable audience -- KDFT 540, KMKI 620, KHSE 700, KJON 850, KFJZ 870, KTXV 890, KATH 910, KFCD 990, KGGR 1040, KJSA 1110, KHFX 1140, KVCE 1160, KFXR 1190, KZEE 1220, KMNY 1360, KTNO 1440, KCLE 1460, KNIT 1480, KRVA 1600, KKGM 1630. It would be hard to argue the AM dial isn't in trouble.
Re: Are Dallas/FT. Worth AMs Going Down the drain?
There are no "illegal Mexican super power stations."
Mexico licences it's AM stations in accordance with agreements with the US. In many cases, the stations you feel are being "blown over" are really only receiving interference in areas that are NOT part of the interference free night coverage area of the station. In other words, if you ever get/got it outside the interference fee zone, it's a bonus, but not protected by any law or treaty.
Mexico has a few stations greater than 50 kw, and they are all totally legal; none are on 660. Remember, US law does not apply outside the US, and Mexico or Cuba or Colombia or Guatemala, etc., are free to put on the air whatever they want.
eskipper411 said:
There are no "illegal Mexican super power stations."
Mexico licences it's AM stations in accordance with agreements with the US. In many cases, the stations you feel are being "blown over" are really only receiving interference in areas that are NOT part of the interference free night coverage area of the station. In other words, if you ever get/got it outside the interference fee zone, it's a bonus, but not protected by any law or treaty.
Mexico has a few stations greater than 50 kw, and they are all totally legal; none are on 660. Remember, US law does not apply outside the US, and Mexico or Cuba or Colombia or Guatemala, etc., are free to put on the air whatever they want.
jd said:
Only 13% of total radio listening is to AM as of the last book (and it's under 8% under age 50). While every owner tries to maximize their facility, it produces no measuable listening in most cases.
The 1970's was the decade when everything turned around in DFW radio, as well as elsewhere.
In 1970, AM radio had huge listenership, and was king. Good stations that people wanted to listen to. By 1980, the scales had tipped in FM's favor, and for three decades it has been all downhill for the AM band.
Although many of us have fond memories of AM's glory days, we have to admit to ourselves that it is a technological dinosaur on its last legs. Once the dust settles from the digital TV transition, a serious discussion about the future of the AM band (and OTA terrestrial radio in general) needs to take place among broadcasters, listeners, the electronics industry, and the FCC.
Migrating current AM stations to an expanded FM band (76-108 MHz) could be a possible start. Or going all digital on FM, which would allow up to ten program streams on a single signal. Or some sort of mobile internet. But AM as it currently is has no future. Will the last listener to leave please turn off the transmitter?
In 1970, AM radio had huge listenership, and was king. Good stations that people wanted to listen to. By 1980, the scales had tipped in FM's favor, and for three decades it has been all downhill for the AM band.
Although many of us have fond memories of AM's glory days, we have to admit to ourselves that it is a technological dinosaur on its last legs. Once the dust settles from the digital TV transition, a serious discussion about the future of the AM band (and OTA terrestrial radio in general) needs to take place among broadcasters, listeners, the electronics industry, and the FCC.
Migrating current AM stations to an expanded FM band (76-108 MHz) could be a possible start. Or going all digital on FM, which would allow up to ten program streams on a single signal. Or some sort of mobile internet. But AM as it currently is has no future. Will the last listener to leave please turn off the transmitter?
LibertyNT said:
Not likely. The NAB is pressuring the FCC to completely do away with Part 15. This is apparently the result of those portable MP3 FM transmitters and other devices like the Whole House FM transmitters. NAB wants the FCC to essentially ban the sale of such products. I am guessing they want this to apply to Part 15 AM transmitters as well.
And you can already forget about DX'ing the AM band as it is, because IBOC has pretty much screwed that up. You're lucky if you can still DX AM stations anywhere in the US.
Last night I heard the end of the Blackhawks game on WGN. Then I heard the news from WBBM. The Grand Ol Opry got covered up by KSKY, but KAAM was playing some vintage rock and roll, so that was nice. Atlanta was coming in, as were Des Moines, Denver, and of course, WWL New Orleans, all on the am-fm-record player 8-track I picked up yesterday at the garage sale. So, despite the IBOC hash covering up XEEP, I still found some interesting things to listen to.
The bottom line for AM, and any AM station, is compelling programming. The people in charge just don't get it. Give some young people a chance to create programming relevant to their interests, and their peers would tune in. Sure, the conventional wisdom is that the AM band is only used by people over 55, but 20 years ago, only researchers and computer geeks used the internet (ARPA Net). 50 years ago only jazz, classical and elevator music could be heard on the FM band.
The economics of the easy-agency sale make regional radio seem unattractive, but the resource is there, and if people with vision are allowed to give it a go, the AM band could be like FM was in the late '60s, where those darned hippies were given a chance to program to their peers, and freeform progressive led to AOR, then KVIL, then the range of programming available now.
It's the content, not the medium, that is failing.
The bottom line for AM, and any AM station, is compelling programming. The people in charge just don't get it. Give some young people a chance to create programming relevant to their interests, and their peers would tune in. Sure, the conventional wisdom is that the AM band is only used by people over 55, but 20 years ago, only researchers and computer geeks used the internet (ARPA Net). 50 years ago only jazz, classical and elevator music could be heard on the FM band.
The economics of the easy-agency sale make regional radio seem unattractive, but the resource is there, and if people with vision are allowed to give it a go, the AM band could be like FM was in the late '60s, where those darned hippies were given a chance to program to their peers, and freeform progressive led to AOR, then KVIL, then the range of programming available now.
It's the content, not the medium, that is failing.
scrtr84 said:
As with the previous poster, that hasn't been my experience. IBOC can certainly be a hassle for DXers, but it's not an insurmountable obstacle by any means.
The FCC chose Ibiquity's proprietary "HD radio" for both AM and FM. HD radio may well be the the best IBOC system for the FM band, but it's very expensive to license, and AM stations aren't exactly flush with cash. It's also taken awhile for consumer HD radios to come down from their early, sky-high prices, and just as they started to get reasonable, the economy went into the toilet.
As a result there simply aren't that many digital AM (or non-commercial FM, for that matter) stations yet. I've only found five AM stations (and one non-comm FM) in the DFW area - and one of those is KRLD, which is virtually impossible to DX around anyway.
If the cost comes down, I think going digital could actually save AM! Of course it wouldn't really be "AM (amplitude modulation)" anymore - it'd just be digital radio that happened to use the same broadcast band. But the sound quality and lack of interference are real improvements.
jd said:
I think the DFW market is oversaturated with far too many AM stations now with all these move-ins and upgrades. I'd wouldn't be surprised if some of these new AM blowtorches go dark in a few years because they cant afford to pay the electric bill or maintenance on that new rig.
And I think its foolish for any AM news-talk stations to start simulcasting on FM. Once listeners move to FM most won't flip back to AM.
IBOC has already failed, and the economy and price of radios had ziltch to do with it. The primary cause of IBOC failure, lies in promotion of the product itself, or lack thereof that is. Been to an electronics section of places like BestBuy lately? Even the employees think you are talking about Sat Radio when you mention things like HD and IBOC radios.
I received a newsletter via e-mail only a couple of years ago, from a Jones TM marketing rep, which basically said something to the effect of, "it is time to embrace the technology right now", and just about died laughing. The poor rep was obviously out of touch with reality, in that IBOC was already all but dead from the retail and consumer standpoint.
I wish folks would do their homework, before blaming the economic crises on products that have already bombed long before the beginning of the economic downturn. :
I received a newsletter via e-mail only a couple of years ago, from a Jones TM marketing rep, which basically said something to the effect of, "it is time to embrace the technology right now", and just about died laughing. The poor rep was obviously out of touch with reality, in that IBOC was already all but dead from the retail and consumer standpoint.
I wish folks would do their homework, before blaming the economic crises on products that have already bombed long before the beginning of the economic downturn. :
Re: Are Dallas/FT. Worth AMs Going Down the drain?
David, I won't argue with you about the "super power" part of your statement. But allow me to quote from the KSKY application which asked the FCC for permission to operate "emergency" repeater stations on FM: [boldface added here for emphasis]
"Attached as Exhibit 1 is a map which shows the KSKY(AM), Balch Springs, Texas (660 kHz), licensed 5.0 mV/m nighttime interference-free (NIF) service contour and the KSKY(AM) NIF contour as reduced by cochannel interference from illegal operations at Mexican stations XEDTL, San Lorenzo Tezoneo, DF and XEEY, Jalpa, ZA. The Mexican stations are notified to and accepted for nighttime operation with power levels limited to 1.0 kW. However, both stations appear to be operating with a nighttime power level on the order of 50 kW."
For the record, I don't know how they can tell what sort of nighttime power the stations in Mexico are running, but apparently the FCC bought into it and approved the repeaters.
I'm well aware of those "agreements." But here's more from the application:
"Mitigation efforts of both the FCC and KSKY(AM) with the Mexican government and the offending stations have been unsuccessful."
From all indications KSKY is operating their station by standards agreed to by Mexico while the stations in Mexico would appear to be (or have been) bending the rules. So tell us, if you can, what's really going on here?
DavidEduardo said:
David, I won't argue with you about the "super power" part of your statement. But allow me to quote from the KSKY application which asked the FCC for permission to operate "emergency" repeater stations on FM: [boldface added here for emphasis]
"Attached as Exhibit 1 is a map which shows the KSKY(AM), Balch Springs, Texas (660 kHz), licensed 5.0 mV/m nighttime interference-free (NIF) service contour and the KSKY(AM) NIF contour as reduced by cochannel interference from illegal operations at Mexican stations XEDTL, San Lorenzo Tezoneo, DF and XEEY, Jalpa, ZA. The Mexican stations are notified to and accepted for nighttime operation with power levels limited to 1.0 kW. However, both stations appear to be operating with a nighttime power level on the order of 50 kW."
For the record, I don't know how they can tell what sort of nighttime power the stations in Mexico are running, but apparently the FCC bought into it and approved the repeaters.
DavidEduardo said:
I'm well aware of those "agreements." But here's more from the application:
"Mitigation efforts of both the FCC and KSKY(AM) with the Mexican government and the offending stations have been unsuccessful."
From all indications KSKY is operating their station by standards agreed to by Mexico while the stations in Mexico would appear to be (or have been) bending the rules. So tell us, if you can, what's really going on here?
billyg said:
I disagree. The stations need to be where their audience is. People who are in their 20s, 30s and 40s now won't switch to AM just because they reach their 50s and 60s.
Talk, sports and music all sound better on FM. And God bless the AM stations that do such a great job covering severe weather, but all it takes is a thunderstorm to make their coverage inaudible when you need it most.
I share the love of AM, especially for DXing. (I'm the even rarer DXer who likes to try to catch HD Radio DX.) But let's face it, the stations don't make money from DXers.
Unless someone comes up with something AM can do better than FM, the band will continue its decline.
MY My My..........what KBOX [1480] could have done with 50kw in the 60's & 70's. Of course the neighborhood would have gone straight nuts. They had trouble tollerating 5kw. White Rock lake submarine races will never be the same!
grantchester said:
Those who tell you "It won't work... because...."
Are like the ones who said..... cassette recording of song from the radio will destory record sales.
The vested interests do not want their homoginzed content (of whatever genre) threatened.
Find out who is behind homoginzed content.... and there's your tyrant.
Re: Are Dallas/FT. Worth AMs Going Down the drain?
First, XEDTL is licensed to Mexico, DF, Mexico and the location named is a transmitter site, not a real city of license. And it is licensed for 50 kw day and 1 kw night, although it has a permit for 10 kw nights.
660 is not in Zacatecas, it is in the state of Aguascalientes. Per the SCT, it is licenced to EL SAUZ II and the facility is: XEEY-AM 660 50.000 10.000. So the licensed operation is 10 kw at night.
The licensed day operation in Mexico is valid from 6 AM local time to 7 PM local time, all year round. So through 7 PM in December, when local sunset in Dallas may be before 5 PM, there are 2 hours when the Mexican stations are legally pumping out 50 kw each.
As you can tell, KSKY did not research the facilities very well... they got two cities of license wrong and one state of license wrong. And they likely use the post-sunset operation prior to 7 PM in Mexico to do measurements so they could get a free FM.
jd said:
First, XEDTL is licensed to Mexico, DF, Mexico and the location named is a transmitter site, not a real city of license. And it is licensed for 50 kw day and 1 kw night, although it has a permit for 10 kw nights.
660 is not in Zacatecas, it is in the state of Aguascalientes. Per the SCT, it is licenced to EL SAUZ II and the facility is: XEEY-AM 660 50.000 10.000. So the licensed operation is 10 kw at night.
The licensed day operation in Mexico is valid from 6 AM local time to 7 PM local time, all year round. So through 7 PM in December, when local sunset in Dallas may be before 5 PM, there are 2 hours when the Mexican stations are legally pumping out 50 kw each.
As you can tell, KSKY did not research the facilities very well... they got two cities of license wrong and one state of license wrong. And they likely use the post-sunset operation prior to 7 PM in Mexico to do measurements so they could get a free FM.
- Status