Is the Animals' "C.C. Rider" too much of a Burdon for the oldies stations?

[ixnay]

My office (via the muzak speakers) was the first place I ever recall hearing the Animals' version of the blues classic "C.C. Rider". I've never heard that version on the oldies stations. It charted in 1966 according to my Whitburn, a few months after Mitch Ryder incorporated "C.C." into "Jenny Take a Ride".

Why don't oldies stations take to Eric's "C.C." the way they do "House...", "We Gotta..." or even "Don't Bring Me Down"? I've never heard the Animals' "C.C." on Philly's WOGL for example, even on specialty shows (don't know if WPEN, which is about to ditch oldies, has played it).

ixnay

 

[Eli Polonsky]

> My office (via the muzak speakers) was the first place I
> ever recall hearing the Animals' version of the blues
> classic "C.C. Rider". I've never heard that version on the
> oldies stations. It charted in 1966 according to my
> Whitburn, a few months after Mitch Ryder incorporated "C.C."
> into "Jenny Take a Ride".
>
> Why don't oldies stations take to Eric's "C.C." the way they
> do "House...", "We Gotta..." or even "Don't Bring Me Down"?
> I've never heard the Animals' "C.C." on Philly's WOGL for
> example, even on specialty shows (don't know if WPEN, which
> is about to ditch oldies, has played it).

I remember hearing it on Top 40 stations when it was current in 1966. It was a #10 Billboard hit in 1966, bigger than "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" (#13) or "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" (#15), which are still played on many oldies stations, so who knows why they don't play it? Maybe it didn't "test well" with some influential "focus group" somewhere, or perhaps some big consultant didn't like it, or some such blather.

That said, I have heard it played recently (though not frequently) on Scott Shannon's "True Oldies Channel" satellite service, and I used to play it on the 60's/70's show I used to do on the MIT college station here in the Boston area (though that doesn't count because it's a non-commercial station).

 

[davideduardo]

> I remember hearing it on Top 40 stations when it was current
> in 1966. It was a #10 Billboard hit in 1966, bigger than "We
> Gotta Get Out Of This Place" (#13) or "Don't Let Me Be
> Misunderstood" (#15), which are still played on many oldies
> stations, so who knows why they don't play it?

The charts from that era were highly influenced by record company antics at retail and by faulty reporting. Believing a chart is akin to buying the Brooklyn Bridge.

The main issue is taht stations do not play songs that WERE hits. They play songs that ARE hits, meaning songs people who would listen to a station want to hear today. There are #1 songs from the past that can not be played today. And there are lower charting songs that are highly viable today.

> Maybe it
> didn't "test well" with some influential "focus group"
> somewhere, or perhaps some big consultant didn't like it, or
> some such blather.

Wrong on both scores.

Music is not tested with focus groups. Music is tested in music tests, with the attendees selected from random phone calls that discover station or format partisans in the desired age, sex and listening specifications. The respondents say how much they would like to hear each song on the radio today.

Consultants don't pick the music. The listeners do.

>
> That said, I have heard it played recently (though not
> frequently) on Scott Shannon's "True Oldies Channel"
> satellite service, and I used to play it on the 60's/70's
> show I used to do on the MIT college station here in the
> Boston area (though that doesn't count because it's a
> non-commercial station).

Why doesn't it count? Non-coms are rated and feed from the same 100 share pool commercial stations dig from.
>

 

[Eli Polonsky]

> Music is not tested with focus groups. Music is tested in
> music tests, with the attendees selected from random phone
> calls that discover station or format partisans in the
> desired age, sex and listening specifications.

Doesn't that, in other words, constitute a "focus group"?

> Consultants don't pick the music. The listeners do.

That's true for the most part. However, though I've never dealt with consultants first hand, I have seen situations at certain stations where a song was dropped from rotation simply because a GM or PD didn't like it, or didn't feel that it represented the "sound" they wanted.

> > That said, I have heard it played recently (though not
> > frequently) on Scott Shannon's "True Oldies Channel"
> > satellite service, and I used to play it on the 60's/70's
> > show I used to do on the MIT college station here in the
> > Boston area (though that doesn't count because it's a
> > non-commercial station).
>
> Why doesn't it count? Non-coms are rated and feed from the
> same 100 share pool commercial stations dig from.

In this case I say it doesn't count because this particular college station (and some others) couldn't care less about their ratings in the metropolitan areas that their signal happens to serve. While it's true that they are rated, it's completely irrelevant to them, so ratings aren't a factor in how they program.

 

[valkyrie777]

Smacky Tune?

> My office (via the muzak speakers) was the first place I
> ever recall hearing the Animals' version of the blues
> classic "C.C. Rider". I've never heard that version on the
> oldies stations. It charted in 1966 according to my
> Whitburn, a few months after Mitch Ryder incorporated "C.C."
> into "Jenny Take a Ride".
>
> Why don't oldies stations take to Eric's "C.C." the way they
> do "House...", "We Gotta..." or even "Don't Bring Me Down"?
> I've never heard the Animals' "C.C." on Philly's WOGL for
> example, even on specialty shows (don't know if WPEN, which
> is about to ditch oldies, has played it).
>
> ixnay
>

"C.C. Rider" is an old-time drug tune. Being a "C.C. Rider" refers to "riding the hypodermic needle filled with heroin"...which is graduated into CC's. Some stations just won't play a drug tune..."C.C. Rider", "Proud Mary" or "Cocaine". Even Ringo's "No-No Song"...fun as it is to listen to...is usually passed on, as well.

Dumb? Yeah...but, who needs the hassle from the prudes on the right-side of the political spectrum causing a stink with Fox Charlie Charlie or making a case for license forfeiture?

Just one possible scenario...

 

[OldiesCat]

Animals' "C.C. Rider"

Because it was never a hit.
>
> Why don't oldies stations take to Eric's "C.C." the way they
> do "House...", "We Gotta..." or even "Don't Bring Me Down"?
> I've never heard the Animals' "C.C." on Philly's WOGL for
> example, even on specialty shows (don't know if WPEN, which
> is about to ditch oldies, has played it).
>
> ixnay
>

 

[TheFonz]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

[Because it was never a hit.]


#10 in 1966. That's a hit in my book. But Oldies radio didn't use charts. They played the same 300 songs. And Oldies radio is dead (but still very much alive on satellite).

 

[bigwoody]

> My office (via the muzak speakers) was the first place I
> ever recall hearing the Animals' version of the blues
> classic "C.C. Rider". I've never heard that version on the
> oldies stations. It charted in 1966 according to my
> Whitburn, a few months after Mitch Ryder incorporated "C.C."
> into "Jenny Take a Ride".
>
> Why don't oldies stations take to Eric's "C.C." the way they
> do "House...", "We Gotta..." or even "Don't Bring Me Down"?
> I've never heard the Animals' "C.C." on Philly's WOGL for
> example, even on specialty shows (don't know if WPEN, which
> is about to ditch oldies, has played it).
>
> ixnay
>

WMJI/Cleveland used to play it years ago under PD's John Gorman and then later Denny Sanders. Post-Sanders WMJI is....well...aside from Lanigan...a shell of it's former self.<P ID="signature">______________
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by bigwoody on 09/20/05 09:10 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[davideduardo]

> > Music is not tested with focus groups. Music is tested in
> > music tests, with the attendees selected from random phone
>
> > calls that discover station or format partisans in the
> > desired age, sex and listening specifications.
>
> Doesn't that, in other words, constitute a "focus group"?

No, it is not even close to a focus group.

A focus group is a set of 8 to 12 persons in a focus room with a moderator. They are asked questions about a subject, and encouraged to give opinions or create conversation. It is pure perceptual research. There is very little quanitification.

A music tests consists of 100 persons or so who use Scantron forma or electronic dials to score songs one by one. In a normal 2:30 session, about 500 to 600 songs can be done. I have done tests where the same people come back a second night to go to 1200 to 1300 songs. Respondents are identified by age, sex, favorite stations, amount of listening, favorite morning show, etc., etc. to produce multiple column ranked reports. Often, true cluster and factor analysis is done, too.

The reason for 100 persons is that anything above 80 respondents can be replicated. That means I can do another 80 to 100 person test, with the same recruit, and the results will be statistically the same. I can do 80 over and over, and the results will not vary statistically. So there is no need to do more than 80, as added respondents do not make the test more accurate.
>
> > Consultants don't pick the music. The listeners do.
>
> That's true for the most part. However, though I've never
> dealt with consultants first hand, I have seen situations at
> certain stations where a song was dropped from rotation
> simply because a GM or PD didn't like it, or didn't feel
> that it represented the "sound" they wanted.

That is part of a PDs job. If you feel s song no longer feels right, you drop it. If you feel it may be liked by the listenrs, but that they do not expect it on the staiton, then you drop it. And you do not consider adds of songs that do not sound right.
> >
> > Why doesn't it count? Non-coms are rated and feed from the
>
> > same 100 share pool commercial stations dig from.
>
> In this case I say it doesn't count because this particular
> college station (and some others) couldn't care less about
> their ratings in the metropolitan areas that their signal
> happens to serve. While it's true that they are rated, it's
> completely irrelevant to them, so ratings aren't a factor in
> how they program.
>

So, what you are saying is that they have no interest in getting listeners. Nice. And some folks complain about "corporate radio" and here is a staiton that does not care if anyone listens.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

> [Because it was never a hit.]
>
>
> #10 in 1966.

Repeat. It was not a hit. It charted due to the reason many stiffs charted. Google "Joe Isgro" to get an idea of haow that worked.

> That's a hit in my book. But Oldies radio
> didn't use charts.

With good reason. Charts show what happened then. Music testing today shows what songs listeners want to hear ont he radio today.

> They played the same 300 songs. And
> Oldies radio is dead

By radio's choice. It is no longer salable, so, like standards and beautiful music, we dumped it.

>(but still very much alive on
> satellite).

Satellite is listener supported. People over 55 can gets lots of old stuff on satellite, as they are paying for it.

 

[topsound]

> > > Music is not tested with focus groups. Music is teste
> in
> > > music tests, with the attendees selected from random
> phone
> >
> > > calls that discover station or format partisans in the
> > > desired age, sex and listening specifications.
(clip)

David accurately describes how my station was programmed in the 90s. "CC Rider" was a song we tested (more than once) that didn't make the grade for regular rotation. However, it was a useful spice cut for us during theme sets, artist sets, twin spin weekends, and the like. I don't think a possible drug reference enters into it. The Mitch Ryder version was a power on most stations, with the same lyrics.

More likely the sound of the record is heard as just a little more "left-field" than "Rising Sun" or "We Gotta..." (or the Mitch). It came a little later in their career, a bridge into to their "Sky Pilot/Monterey" era rather than their 64-65 peak.

David correctly notes that past chart position is not an important criterion for present play. The old charts might help you rough out an initial list, but you need to find out how those songs rate TODAY.

The station I programmed (in a rust belt market) used WMJI as one of its benchmarks to balance against the auditorium tests results (WCBS and WWSW/Pittsburgh were among others). Those stations had a similar philosophy to mine regarding the mix of "safe" cuts with "spice" cuts.

You can (or maybe I should say "could") play a lot of songs on Oldies stations; some of them once a day, some of them once a year.

 

[TheFonz]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

[By radio's choice. It is no longer salable, so, like
standards and beautiful music, we dumped it.]


O.K. I'm trying to do some math here. I'm thinking of terrestrial music radio in terms of a funnel. A constant stream of 55+ listeners are streaming out of the bottom of that funnel. Exactly who is pouring into the top?

 

[davideduardo]

>
> You can (or maybe I should say "could") play a lot of songs
> on Oldies stations; some of them once a day, some of them
> once a year.
>

If properly done, with the use of specialty shows, two-fers, theme weekeds and "dreaded morning oldies" you can play lots of tunes, but judiciously. On KRCD in LA, we even have a Satruday show which is called the English equivalent of "at the hop" which features 50's and 60's dance fad stuff! It gets a 4 share in LA! We feature a "song you would rather forget" in mornings, and do two-fers at noon daily, among many other features. It makes the staiton fun, unpredictable but 100% familiar... and any odd song is justified before it is played.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

> [By radio's choice. It is no longer salable, so, like
> standards and beautiful music, we dumped it.]
>
>
> O.K. I'm trying to do some math here. I'm thinking of
> terrestrial music radio in terms of a funnel. A constant
> stream of 55+ listeners are streaming out of the bottom of
> that funnel. Exactly who is pouring into the top?
>

Most over 55 listeners do not leave radio. Most listen to soft AC, talk and other formats. The average 55+ in thier majority is NOT an oldies listener.

However, there is some radio attrition in 55+, but they are replaced by 18-24s migrating into the sales demos. Listening in 8-24 and 25-34 have suffered little erosion, and are big users of radio..

 

[BDBopper]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

> #10 in 1966. That's a hit in my book. But Oldies radio
> didn't use charts. They played the same 300 songs. And
> Oldies radio is dead (but still very much alive on
> satellite).

Yeah why don't Oldies stations use the charts? I have a Whitburn book and there are some tunes that I haven't even heard of ever.

BTW: I have researched Top 40 station surveys and the same goes for that. I find myself asking...what happened to these records? I should be familiar with these?

And what about the original Pop hit version of "CC Rider" by Chuck Willis?


<P ID="signature">______________
In Harmony
From the Bop Shop,
Brian "BD Bopper"</P>

 

[radiolover78]

Charts

> > #10 in 1966. That's a hit in my book. But Oldies radio
> > didn't use charts. They played the same 300 songs. And
> > Oldies radio is dead (but still very much alive on
> > satellite).
>
> Yeah why don't Oldies stations use the charts? I have a
> Whitburn book and there are some tunes that I haven't even
> heard of ever.
>
> BTW: I have researched Top 40 station surveys and the same
> goes for that. I find myself asking...what happened to
> these records? I should be familiar with these?
>
> And what about the original Pop hit version of "CC Rider" by
> Chuck Willis?
>


Charts don't mean much. They are inaccurate. Plus the songs may not test well now.<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>

 

[TheFonz]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

[Most over 55 listeners do not leave radio. Most listen to
soft AC, talk and other formats. The average 55+ in thier
majority is NOT an oldies listener.]


Something just doesn't add up here. According to the Alliance For Aging (www.allianceforaging.org), between 2000 and 2010 the 55 to 65 age bracket will grow by 47%. That makes it the fastest growing bracket in the U.S. according to the Department Of Health And Human Services. Now, if as you say, MOST of the radio listeners in this bracket move to other formats, that's going to give those other formats a pretty large 55+ audience. If advertisers aren't interested in 55+, where will radio get its revenue from?

 

[TheFonz]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

[It was not a hit. It charted due to the reason many
stiffs charted. Google "Joe Isgro" to get an idea of haow
that worked.]


So you're saying that the charts don't accuratly reflect sales. From time to time we receive phone calls at our house from what I assume are radio station employees. A voice tells us that if we listen to WXYZ between 4 and 6 p.m. on Wednesday, our name will be entered in a drawing for $1000. Now THERE'S a listener base that I'd want to spend my advertising dollars on!

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

> [Most over 55 listeners do not leave radio. Most listen to
> soft AC, talk and other formats. The average 55+ in thier
> majority is NOT an oldies listener.]
>
>
> Something just doesn't add up here. According to the
> Alliance For Aging (www.allianceforaging.org), between 2000
> and 2010 the 55 to 65 age bracket will grow by 47%. That
> makes it the fastest growing bracket in the U.S. according
> to the Department Of Health And Human Services. Now, if as
> you say, MOST of the radio listeners in this bracket move to
> other formats, that's going to give those other formats a
> pretty large 55+ audience. If advertisers aren't interested
> in 55+, where will radio get its revenue from?

The country as a whole is growing, just that the 55 to 65 is growing fast, fed in part by the baby boomers and in part by the vastly increased longevity of Americans.

There is gwoth in other demos. It is not as if 18-49 is going away... it is just that the older demos are growing faster than before.

Advertisers pay for radio based on deliver in the core demo. Many could care less how many over 55 people a staiton has... they price based on the target only.

At some point, advertisers may start using 25-64 demos, but it is not likely soon as the real issue is that it is not cost effective, n matter how much money the group may have.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Animals' "C.C. Rider"

> [It was not a hit. It charted due to the reason many
> stiffs charted. Google "Joe Isgro" to get an idea of haow
> that worked.]
>
>
> So you're saying that the charts don't accuratly reflect
> sales.

the charts from the 50's and 60's don't reflect anything. Many were very distorted, and unreliable except as a general guide.

Today, charts combine airplay and sales. They are so many charts, it is hard to tell which one to look at. The main issue is that stations do not use charts. They create the charts via airplay. Stations measure playabilty based on researching their listeners.

> From time to time we receive phone calls at our
> house from what I assume are radio station employees. A
> voice tells us that if we listen to WXYZ between 4 and 6
> p.m. on Wednesday, our name will be entered in a drawing for
> $1000. Now THERE'S a listener base that I'd want to spend
> my advertising dollars on!

Who cares why a person listens? If they are listening, they hear the ads that are on the staiton.

In any case, this type of promotion is intended to get you to sample the stations, hoping you will listen more often.
>