Is the verdict out for 93.7 mike fm

[jlehmann]

Re: V.H. & jocks

> Most people on these boards who are so vocal against Jack
> are indeed unemployed or frustrated DJs. You have to take
> their statements with a grain of salt. I contend if most of
> them used the time the put into sitting on these boards
> bashing the hottest new format in the country into getting
> better at what they do and more valuable to those for whom
> they work, they'd be a little farther along in their
> careers.

I find your name interesting.... it mentions Oldies, when all you ever talk about is Variety Hits. You might want to consider changing it to VarietyHitsCat.

 

[promixcuous]

Re: V.H. "a dismal failure?" R U nuts?

It's interesting to note that while doing well in other Canadian markets, Jack has been a flop in multicultural Toronto. One could make an argument that, except L.A., Jack doesn't do well in markets with multicultural and heritage alternative leanings.

> And I always thought the Boston board had a degree of
> intellect- I was wrong.
>
> "The Jack format is a dismal failure almost everywhere" and
> "isn't as successful as many thought it would be"? Did that
> storm last weekend blow some of you guys' brian cells away?
>
> The only, ONLY real stiffs thus far in the Jack arena are
> NY, Denver and SF.
> Chicago's numbers are a little higher than as Oldies but if
> you're going to make me go through the list of stunning
> Variety Hits successes again, here we go:
>
> LA- #1 25-54
> Phoenix- #3 25-54
> Nashville- #1 25-54
> St Louis- #1 25-54
> Indy- #4 25-54 (has been as high as #2)
> Seattle- #4 25-54
> Baltimore- #7 25-54
> Minneapolis- #6 25-54
> Austin- #2 25-54
> Dallas- #7 25-54
> Philadelphia- #5 25-54
> Portland- #2 25-54
> Rochester- #7 25-54
>
> There are others off to great starts:
> Las Vegas
> Buffalo
> Louisville
> Salt Lake City
> Des Moines
> Jackson MS
>
>
> So-- would you like to re-consider your statement? What
> criteria are you using to come to such a conclusion?
>
>
> >
> > The JACK format is a dismal failure most everywhere. Too
> > bad so many talented jocks and good stations had to bite
> the
> > dust to make room for it in the first place.
> >
>

 

[OldiesCat]

V.H.

I find it even more interesting that you didn't do your homework-- go back on the Oldies and other market boards for my numerous posts on Oldies (more than on VH board and mostly positive).

And of even higher interest is why you didn't answer my question farther up the board on your ridiculous claim that the V.H. format is failing.

Well?

> I find your name interesting.... it mentions Oldies, when
> all you ever talk about is Variety Hits. You might want to
> consider changing it to VarietyHitsCat.
>

 

[jlehmann]

Re: V.H.

> I find it even more interesting that you didn't do your
> homework-- go back on the Oldies and other market boards for
> my numerous posts on Oldies (more than on VH board and
> mostly positive).
>
> And of even higher interest is why you didn't answer my
> question farther up the board on your ridiculous claim that
> the V.H. format is failing.

I never said anything about the VH format failing in other cities further up on this board. I don't think you did your homework.

 

[OldiesCat]

V.H.

> I never said anything about the VH format failing in other
> cities further up on this board. I don't think you did your homework.

> Oh geez Steve, you've stirred the 2 Mike/Jack/Bob.... lovers up. The fact is,
> like you said, that Mike is not doing well here in Boston.


***That is what you were inferring.

 

[classicradionut]

Re: V.H. "a dismal failure?" R U nuts?

> And I always thought the Boston board had a degree of
> intellect- I was wrong.
>
> "The Jack format is a dismal failure almost everywhere" and
> "isn't as successful as many thought it would be"? Did that
> storm last weekend blow some of you guys' brian cells away?
>
> The only, ONLY real stiffs thus far in the Jack arena are
> NY, Denver and SF.
> Chicago's numbers are a little higher than as Oldies but if
> you're going to make me go through the list of stunning
> Variety Hits successes again, here we go:

Save it. L.A. is a strange market where hispanic is right behind, and a former (and future) #1 format. Variety hits did well out of the box but we'll see how long it lasts.

Nashville didn't have much for 'oldies', so the variety thing works there. It's a fragmented market with lots of Classic Rock, Country and Talk/Sports.

Can't comment on St. Louis.

And, don't add in stations that are #5 and #7.. those are failures in my book.... in fact in today's radio landscape, when you do the 25-54 breakdowns, anything under #2 is a failure, at least in the sales department.

Yep, opened up the ol' can o worms talking about Mike-FM, and you bit, but think locally, Mike-FM isn't doing well and isn't going to do well, the audience likes to hear personalities. So, if they add a lot of jocks (which Entercom WON'T do) the format might stand a chance... then again maybe not. Much of the music is played already on stations like Mix, WROR & WODS - and they have actual staffs! With legendary jocks that listeners like.

Jack might work in Idaho, but it ain't workin' in Boston.

No, I won't retract my comment. Your list isn't that long and there's a whole hell of a lot more markets with Jack that aren't doing squat.

Just my opinion - open for discussion gang. Civilly, please.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[classicradionut]

Re: where r u getting your info?

You know what? I've been in radio (full and part time) since 1980. I KNOW this business, bucko. I get my info from experience.

> I'll also challenge your "nine months" assertion. "The best
> programmers wait three months" would have hundreds of
> stations around the country changing format EVERY MONTH.
> The numbers just do not back up your claim.

It's obvious you're not in radio or you'd understand. Many stations indeed do go about 6 months into a new format and if it doesn't pan out they go into panic mode and everyone knows it's the beginning of the end. And those of us who've watched this behavior for years, if not decades start saying... if they'd only give it at least 3 books. Nine months is just about right. After that then they can start - or they'd BETTER start re-thinking the format for the one year anniversary. How long you gonna stay with a looser?

Radio is a business. With few exceptions, most stations are owned and operated by large corporations beholden to their Wall Street investors. If a station doesn't do well, they change the format.... which, by the way, is an expensive thing to do (we had a station here in Memphis flip from Smooth Jazz to Urban and spent $100,000 in new VEHICLES alone! Never mind the promotions, imaging, FCC costs involved with a call letter change, etc.). All of that just to satisfy the company's investors that they're actually doing something to turn a decent profit. When the profit doesn't come because nobody's listening, they still will spend that money and do it all over again to prove to Wall Street that their investment hasn't been wasted. And, by the way, that's another reason the Jack format is so highly favored. Investors MUST see profits every quarter. If not there's hell to pay. Not only that, but most GMs get a huge bonus for every milestone (usually several 10s of thousands of $$) that they cut from the bottom line - and why? Because to investors, bottom line is more important than marginal profits, since it actually nets more cash, and more cash at the end of the quarter (or year) means a better report to investors and the SEC. That's why jocks are expendable at the expense of the on air product and listeners.

And you guys wonder WHY the hell I'm so jaded against corporate radio. Its not the computer automation systems and the overall technology and voicetracking, its because those are all tools which are the means to cut the stations' bottom line for their investors. How many of you have had a friend whose been in the market for years and was highly respected only to be cut from the station.... because of what, money? Yeah, happens all the time. OH, how many of you have watched while the unions have been slowly busted and tossed out of markets? (Is Boston a union radio market? SESAC?) Anyway, count yourselves lucky that Massachusetts isn't a 'right to work' state.

That's the big explanation for those of you who post and aren't in radio.

>
> Finally, it's pretty obvious you have a tremendous bias
> against the Jack-type formats. You give it up in statements
> like "stupid format just to hold the costs down". That's
> the thinking of a failed jock who thinks Jack being jockless
> so far spells the end for DJs.

Yes, I do. And I'm not ashamed of it. But, failed jock? Hahaha, yea right. Whatever.

Any damn fool can put a cd player on shuffle, that's not creative and it sure as HELL isn't broadcasting in the public interest, which radio stations are legally required to do. This took no brains whatsoever from management to put Mike on the air (or any of these Jack-type formats), but it does take a decent MD/PD to get the rotation and song selection right for the market.

I'll end with this. Most format changes these days are simply a corporate edict, handed down to local management. They're told simply to make it happen. So my comments aren't a slam at local management. Just another complaint of corporate radio at it's worst.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[wormhole]

Re: V.H.

> I find it even more interesting that you didn't do your
> homework-- go back on the Oldies and other market boards for
> my numerous posts on Oldies (more than on VH board and
> mostly positive).
>
> And of even higher interest is why you didn't answer my
> question farther up the board on your ridiculous claim that
> the V.H. format is failing.
>
> Well?
>
> > I find your name interesting.... it mentions Oldies, when
> > all you ever talk about is Variety Hits. You might want to
>
> > consider changing it to VarietyHitsCat.
> >
>
Actually, as a listener, and industry outsider, it does seem like you are some sort of apologist for the industry, and so therefore it seems odd that you accuse this guy of being a jilted ex-jockey. Further more the constant use of the words variety hits seems like a smokescreen to the technical fact that while all Jack is Variety Hits, variety hits is not necessarily Jack. While for me,
to let my personal opinion not be hidden, fell out of favor with Jack precisely
because it was Variety Hits: They dont play everything, and will not play anything has not charted. I am in the Boston area, and what I had liked most
about the previous Star 93.7 was not the songs that they beat to death, but
the times they had introduced me to a song or remix I had not heard before.
Mike takes no chances. It's just an Oldies station.

 

[OldiesCat]

amazing

How you can call stations ranked 5th and 7th in 25-54 adults failures says something about your perspective. Your statement that unless you're top 2 25-54 says even more.

So, about 80% of radio stations in America are failures- bet that's big news to many, many dedicated radio people. Can you please provide a list of the markets where Jack "isn't doing squat", because if you do a nationwide analysis, Jack/V.H. numbers are up (some dramatically) nearly everywhere.




> Save it. L.A. is a strange market where hispanic is right
> behind, and a former (and future) #1 format. Variety hits
> did well out of the box but we'll see how long it lasts.
>
> Nashville didn't have much for 'oldies', so the variety
> thing works there. It's a fragmented market with lots of
> Classic Rock, Country and Talk/Sports.
>
> Can't comment on St. Louis.
>
> And, don't add in stations that are #5 and #7.. those are
> failures in my book.... in fact in today's radio landscape,
> when you do the 25-54 breakdowns, anything under #2 is a
> failure, at least in the sales department.
>
> Yep, opened up the ol' can o worms talking about Mike-FM,
> and you bit, but think locally, Mike-FM isn't doing well and
> isn't going to do well, the audience likes to hear
> personalities. So, if they add a lot of jocks (which
> Entercom WON'T do) the format might stand a chance... then
> again maybe not. Much of the music is played already on
> stations like Mix, WROR & WODS - and they have actual
> staffs! With legendary jocks that listeners like.
>
> Jack might work in Idaho, but it ain't workin' in Boston.
>
> No, I won't retract my comment. Your list isn't that long
> and there's a whole hell of a lot more markets with Jack
> that aren't doing squat.
>
> Just my opinion - open for discussion gang. Civilly, please.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

your info?

And I've been in radio even longer. Your statement toward the end of this rant gives true perspective for your cynical view of the Variety Hits format.

It's OK if you don't like it- we all have varying tastes and preferences and ineed makes the world go 'round. But to come on (as a Moderator) and make a seemingly factual statement but only back it up with, "I get my info from experience" is pretty lightweight.

You don't have to like it but for those people you refered to "not in radio", you are giving them an incredibly negative, skeptical view of our industry that I don't believe is totally accurate.


> You know what? I've been in radio (full and part time)
> since 1980. I KNOW this business, bucko. I get my info
> from experience.
>
> > I'll also challenge your "nine months" assertion. "The
> best
> > programmers wait three months" would have hundreds of
> > stations around the country changing format EVERY MONTH.
> > The numbers just do not back up your claim.
>
> It's obvious you're not in radio or you'd understand. Many
> stations indeed do go about 6 months into a new format and
> if it doesn't pan out they go into panic mode and everyone
> knows it's the beginning of the end. And those of us who've
> watched this behavior for years, if not decades start
> saying... if they'd only give it at least 3 books. Nine
> months is just about right. After that then they can start
> - or they'd BETTER start re-thinking the format for the one
> year anniversary. How long you gonna stay with a looser?
>
> Radio is a business. With few exceptions, most stations are
> owned and operated by large corporations beholden to their
> Wall Street investors. If a station doesn't do well, they
> change the format.... which, by the way, is an expensive
> thing to do (we had a station here in Memphis flip from
> Smooth Jazz to Urban and spent $100,000 in new VEHICLES
> alone! Never mind the promotions, imaging, FCC costs
> involved with a call letter change, etc.). All of that just
> to satisfy the company's investors that they're actually
> doing something to turn a decent profit. When the profit
> doesn't come because nobody's listening, they still will
> spend that money and do it all over again to prove to Wall
> Street that their investment hasn't been wasted. And, by
> the way, that's another reason the Jack format is so highly
> favored. Investors MUST see profits every quarter. If not
> there's hell to pay. Not only that, but most GMs get a huge
> bonus for every milestone (usually several 10s of thousands
> of $$) that they cut from the bottom line - and why?
> Because to investors, bottom line is more important than
> marginal profits, since it actually nets more cash, and more
> cash at the end of the quarter (or year) means a better
> report to investors and the SEC. That's why jocks are
> expendable at the expense of the on air product and
> listeners.
>
> And you guys wonder WHY the hell I'm so jaded against
> corporate radio. Its not the computer automation systems
> and the overall technology and voicetracking, its because
> those are all tools which are the means to cut the stations'
> bottom line for their investors. How many of you have had a
> friend whose been in the market for years and was highly
> respected only to be cut from the station.... because of
> what, money? Yeah, happens all the time. OH, how many of
> you have watched while the unions have been slowly busted
> and tossed out of markets? (Is Boston a union radio market?
> SESAC?) Anyway, count yourselves lucky that Massachusetts
> isn't a 'right to work' state.
>
> That's the big explanation for those of you who post and
> aren't in radio.
>
> >
> > Finally, it's pretty obvious you have a tremendous bias
> > against the Jack-type formats. You give it up in
> statements
> > like "stupid format just to hold the costs down". That's
> > the thinking of a failed jock who thinks Jack being
> jockless
> > so far spells the end for DJs.
>
> Yes, I do. And I'm not ashamed of it. But, failed jock?
> Hahaha, yea right. Whatever.
>
> Any damn fool can put a cd player on shuffle, that's not
> creative and it sure as HELL isn't broadcasting in the
> public interest, which radio stations are legally required
> to do. This took no brains whatsoever from management to
> put Mike on the air (or any of these Jack-type formats), but
> it does take a decent MD/PD to get the rotation and song
> selection right for the market.
>
> I'll end with this. Most format changes these days are
> simply a corporate edict, handed down to local management.
> They're told simply to make it happen. So my comments
> aren't a slam at local management. Just another complaint
> of corporate radio at it's worst.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

V.H.

I'm no apologist for the industry. I just have little patience for the "jilted" who do nothing but bash radio. Something fresh and new comes on and because it doesn't fit into their little box of what radio "should be", it must suck.

It's folks like these who end up being part of the problem vs. part of the solutions. If they took all the time they whine and complain about everything in radio today and put that time and energy into being better at what they do, maybe radio would be stronger.

> >
> Actually, as a listener, and industry outsider, it does seem
> like you are some sort of apologist for the industry, and so
> therefore it seems odd that you accuse this guy of being a
> jilted ex-jockey. Further more the constant use of the words
> variety hits seems like a smokescreen to the technical fact
> that while all Jack is Variety Hits, variety hits is not
> necessarily Jack. While for me,
> to let my personal opinion not be hidden, fell out of favor
> with Jack precisely
> because it was Variety Hits: They dont play everything, and
> will not play anything has not charted. I am in the Boston
> area, and what I had liked most
> about the previous Star 93.7 was not the songs that they
> beat to death, but
> the times they had introduced me to a song or remix I had
> not heard before.
> Mike takes no chances. It's just an Oldies station.
>

 

[Garrett]

Re: V.H. "a dismal failure?" R U nuts?

The problem with Jack (or Mike in this case) is, he's not what he claims to be.
What do I mean?

When first heard about this format, I was enthusiastic. One of the things that radio needs is more diversity, not less. And with Jack, it seemed we had that: A diverse playlist of Top40 that spans several decades, and includes currents. This was a great idea.

But then, it became clear that most Jacks (not all, but "most"), do not have jocks. And then, I began to listen, and realized that the style of music selected is very narrow. It's mostly progressive rock music, with some disco, some currents dropped in here and there. Yeah, every now and then there's a "wow" song. But to get there, you have to sit through a bunch of songs you've never heard of; not exactly what I had in mind. And then, (alot of "and thens," with this, sorry), they tell you not to make requests. This may be honest, but it's also bad PR. Why would you tell a listener not to make a request. Why not just say "don't listen," because you might as well. That's the most important rule of radio that is being violated: "It's about the listener. And if the listner doesn't think it's about them, they'll go somewhere else."

So here you've got a station, Mike, on a weak north of market stick, that has no jocks, and a bunch of songs just thrown together that I don't want to hear. Not much of a station at all.

The sad thing is, you know what Jack reminds me of? It's like sitting in the back seat of an old 60's convertable driven by some balding 50 year old on his way through the Nevada dessert, listening to a bunch of crap you have to hear.

Would you get in that car? I wouldn't...

> > And I always thought the Boston board had a degree of
> > intellect- I was wrong.
> >
> > "The Jack format is a dismal failure almost everywhere"
> and
> > "isn't as successful as many thought it would be"? Did
> that
> > storm last weekend blow some of you guys' brian cells
> away?
> >
> > The only, ONLY real stiffs thus far in the Jack arena are
> > NY, Denver and SF.
> > Chicago's numbers are a little higher than as Oldies but
> if
> > you're going to make me go through the list of stunning
> > Variety Hits successes again, here we go:
>
> Save it. L.A. is a strange market where hispanic is right
> behind, and a former (and future) #1 format. Variety hits
> did well out of the box but we'll see how long it lasts.
>
> Nashville didn't have much for 'oldies', so the variety
> thing works there. It's a fragmented market with lots of
> Classic Rock, Country and Talk/Sports.
>
> Can't comment on St. Louis.
>
> And, don't add in stations that are #5 and #7.. those are
> failures in my book.... in fact in today's radio landscape,
> when you do the 25-54 breakdowns, anything under #2 is a
> failure, at least in the sales department.
>
> Yep, opened up the ol' can o worms talking about Mike-FM,
> and you bit, but think locally, Mike-FM isn't doing well and
> isn't going to do well, the audience likes to hear
> personalities. So, if they add a lot of jocks (which
> Entercom WON'T do) the format might stand a chance... then
> again maybe not. Much of the music is played already on
> stations like Mix, WROR & WODS - and they have actual
> staffs! With legendary jocks that listeners like.
>
> Jack might work in Idaho, but it ain't workin' in Boston.
>
> No, I won't retract my comment. Your list isn't that long
> and there's a whole hell of a lot more markets with Jack
> that aren't doing squat.
>
> Just my opinion - open for discussion gang. Civilly,
> please.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

V.H.

All of what you're saying is fine- except, in most markets in America, it's working and working well.

Our radio perspective may not allow us to wrap our arms around it (heck, I hate rap and hip hop but it's not my place to call those stations failures)- but it's here and, in most places, doing better than expected sooner than expected.

 

[BRNout]

Re: amazing

> How you can call stations ranked 5th and 7th in 25-54 adults
> failures says something about your perspective. Your
> statement that unless you're top 2 25-54 says even more.
>
> So, about 80% of radio stations in America are failures- bet
> that's big news to many, many dedicated radio people. Can
> you please provide a list of the markets where Jack "isn't
> doing squat", because if you do a nationwide analysis,
> Jack/V.H. numbers are up (some dramatically) nearly
> everywhere.

No, you missed the point about 25-54 and Jack. This is a format who's sole mission is to maximize demos in the 25-54 range. It's why programmers blew out perfectly viable oldies and other formats (Star, for example) with the idea of shooting ONLY for 25-54. It's what the sales slime are selling it with.

So, if Jack only gets 5th or 7th in that particular demo - it has failed. It's supposed to be in the top 3 in any given market. Even proponents of the format know that the 12+ numbers may stink, but this can be excused if they hit the target on 25-54. Not that many V.H. stations have done this.

Yes, LA was a success story. But remember that Infinity took a perpetual cellar-dweller (with a class c stick) and made it Jack. So, it became like a "new" station on the dial. And, that market LOVES new things. Same occurred in Dallas. No harm done when you take a station that no one listens to and make it into something better.

But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not make any friends for this format. And, those are cities where the music played by Jack is well covered by other stations that actually have a personality.

Also, the abrupt tempo and style changes get really old after a while. This am, I sampled Mike for a little while. They played "The Big Payback" by James Brown, which they followed with......a J. Geils tune! Come on, few people want such a jarring transition. Especially at 8 am.

No, V.H. has "flavor of the month" written all over it. At least in Top 50 markets, where there are lots of other choices.

To be fair, the format may do a lot better in smaller markets - where a "one size fits all" approach could be quite successful.

 

[radiolover78]

Re: amazing

> > How you can call stations ranked 5th and 7th in 25-54
> adults
> > failures says something about your perspective. Your
> > statement that unless you're top 2 25-54 says even more.
> >
> > So, about 80% of radio stations in America are failures-
> bet
> > that's big news to many, many dedicated radio people. Can
>
> > you please provide a list of the markets where Jack "isn't
>
> > doing squat", because if you do a nationwide analysis,
> > Jack/V.H. numbers are up (some dramatically) nearly
> > everywhere.
>
> No, you missed the point about 25-54 and Jack. This is a
> format who's sole mission is to maximize demos in the 25-54
> range. It's why programmers blew out perfectly viable
> oldies and other formats (Star, for example) with the idea
> of shooting ONLY for 25-54. It's what the sales slime are
> selling it with.

Radio is a business. Owners are out to make money.
>
It's supposed to be in the top 3 in any
> given market.

Some markets are different. For example, alternative rock may work in X city but may not work in Y city. The same goes for Jack. Some markets may like it, some may not.

Even proponents of the format know that the
> 12+ numbers may stink, but this can be excused if they hit
> the target on 25-54. Not that many V.H. stations have done
> this.

Wrong, many VH stations have done it.


>
>
> But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies
> stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not make
> any friends for this format. And, those are cities where
> the music played by Jack is well covered by other stations
> that actually have a personality.

That is somewhat true, but WGLD (oldies) in Indianapolis was in the Top 5 when they flipped to Jack and they are still doing well. They're still in the Top 5 and I wouldn't call that a failing format just because it may not be in 1st or 2nd place.
>
> Also, the abrupt tempo and style changes get really old
> after a while. This am, I sampled Mike for a little while.
> They played "The Big Payback" by James Brown, which they
> followed with......a J. Geils tune! Come on, few people
> want such a jarring transition. Especially at 8 am.

Apparently, LOTS of people want such a jarring transition. It may not work in Boston, but it works in a lot of other markets.
>
> No, V.H. has "flavor of the month" written all over it. At
> least in Top 50 markets, where there are lots of other
> choices.

We'll see if it is "flavor of the month" format. It is still too soon to know.
>

>
<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>

 

[radiolover78]

Re: Don't like mike

Give the people what they want! Music with life to
> it! The 93.7 signal had it's highest rating with Star.
>

Mike comes around with VARIETY and "music with life to it" and people still walk all over it. Plus, there's not much evidence that VH stations are declining. Some are, but not all. Also, all stations fall slightly in the ratings, they aren't always number one and always have super high numbers.
<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>

 

[BRNout]

Re: amazing

> Radio is a business. Owners are out to make money.
> >
Which is why anything less than top 3 in 25-54 is a disappointment for this format.

> It's supposed to be in the top 3 in any
> > given market.
>
> Some markets are different. For example, alternative rock
> may work in X city but may not work in Y city. The same goes
> for Jack. Some markets may like it, some may not.

Not relevant to what I was saying. My discussion pertained to the fact that "Jack" targets a specific demo. If it doesn't hit that demo well, it has not done its job. Perhaps I was misunderstood.


> Even proponents of the format know that the
> > 12+ numbers may stink, but this can be excused if they hit
>
> > the target on 25-54. Not that many V.H. stations have
> done
> > this.
>
> Wrong, many VH stations have done it.
>
And many haven't. Those who haven't are failing because either the format takes off or it doesn't. In the markets where it does not catch on immediately, it is doubtful that it ever will. Like Boston.

>
> >
> >
> > But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies
> > stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not make
> > any friends for this format. And, those are cities where
> > the music played by Jack is well covered by other stations
>
> > that actually have a personality.
>
> That is somewhat true, but WGLD (oldies) in Indianapolis was
> in the Top 5 when they flipped to Jack and they are still
> doing well. They're still in the Top 5 and I wouldn't call
> that a failing format just because it may not be in 1st or
> 2nd place.

A small enough (or medium enough) market for a station like Jack to do okay. But, nothing like Boston. Many other oldies stations were flipped to "Jack" in the eternal quest for 25-54 demos only to lose gobs of listeners. In the case of WCBS-FM, they lost 25-44's too. The format is a complete disaster there.


> >
> > Also, the abrupt tempo and style changes get really old
> > after a while. This am, I sampled Mike for a little
> while.
> > They played "The Big Payback" by James Brown, which they
> > followed with......a J. Geils tune! Come on, few people
> > want such a jarring transition. Especially at 8 am.
>
> Apparently, LOTS of people want such a jarring transition.
> It may not work in Boston, but it works in a lot of other
> markets.
> >

It gets old. I firmly believe that it will even get old in those markets where "Jack" is strongest. "Jack 92.5" in Toronto replaced a CHR "Kiss" format a couple of years ago. Initially it made a big splash, but it has floated downward in recent books. And, they actually had jocks - which were recently fired in order to save money. Because the ratings are slipping.

Toronto is the closest thing Canada has to a big US market - culturally. Yes, there are differences (which would actually HELP a "Jack" format) but many similarities. Based on the Toronto model, the format has a life span of 2 to 3 years in a big market.

Smaller markets are different, of course.

> > No, V.H. has "flavor of the month" written all over it.
> At
> > least in Top 50 markets, where there are lots of other
> > choices.
>
> We'll see if it is "flavor of the month" format. It is still
> too soon to know.
> >

Yep, this will take time to sort out.

 

[BRNout]

Re: Not just Mike-FM, Variety Hits in general

> Oh geez Steve, you've stirred the 2 Mike/Jack/Bob.... lovers
> up. The fact is, like you said, that Mike is not doing well
> here in Boston.
>
If it were doing well in Boston, it would have doubled Star's ratings in one book because that's the pattern in markets where it is successful. It takes off - even on a suburban or rimshot stick. Instead, Mike's ratings dropped with an audible thud.

A really bad sign for the format in Boston, and tough for VH lovers to apologize for.

 

[radiolover78]

Re: amazing

> > Radio is a business. Owners are out to make money.
> > >
> Which is why anything less than top 3 in 25-54 is a
> disappointment for this format.
>
> > It's supposed to be in the top 3 in any
> > > given market.
> >
> > Some markets are different. For example, alternative rock
> > may work in X city but may not work in Y city. The same
> goes
> > for Jack. Some markets may like it, some may not.
>
> Not relevant to what I was saying. My discussion pertained
> to the fact that "Jack" targets a specific demo. If it
> doesn't hit that demo well, it has not done its job.
> Perhaps I was misunderstood.

I guess I did misunderstand you, sorry.
>
>
> > Even proponents of the format know that the
> > > 12+ numbers may stink, but this can be excused if they
> hit
> >
> > > the target on 25-54. Not that many V.H. stations have
> > done
> > > this.
> >
> > Wrong, many VH stations have done it.
> >
> And many haven't. Those who haven't are failing because
> either the format takes off or it doesn't. In the markets
> where it does not catch on immediately, it is doubtful that
> it ever will. Like Boston.

I think there are more stations doing better than stations now doing well. I can't prove my opinion because I don't have access to the 25-54 numbers.
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies
> > > stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not
> make
> > > any friends for this format. And, those are cities
> where
> > > the music played by Jack is well covered by other
> stations
> >
> > > that actually have a personality.
> >
> > That is somewhat true, but WGLD (oldies) in Indianapolis
> was
> > in the Top 5 when they flipped to Jack and they are still
> > doing well. They're still in the Top 5 and I wouldn't call
>
> > that a failing format just because it may not be in 1st or
>
> > 2nd place.
>
> A small enough (or medium enough) market for a station like
> Jack to do okay. But, nothing like Boston. Many other
> oldies stations were flipped to "Jack" in the eternal quest
> for 25-54 demos only to lose gobs of listeners. In the case
> of WCBS-FM, they lost 25-44's too. The format is a complete
> disaster there.
>
>
> > >
> > > Also, the abrupt tempo and style changes get really old
> > > after a while. This am, I sampled Mike for a little
> > while.
> > > They played "The Big Payback" by James Brown, which they
>
> > > followed with......a J. Geils tune! Come on, few
> people
> > > want such a jarring transition. Especially at 8 am.
> >
> > Apparently, LOTS of people want such a jarring transition.
>
> > It may not work in Boston, but it works in a lot of other
> > markets.
> > >
>
> It gets old. I firmly believe that it will even get old in
> those markets where "Jack" is strongest. "Jack 92.5" in
> Toronto replaced a CHR "Kiss" format a couple of years ago.
> Initially it made a big splash, but it has floated downward
> in recent books. And, they actually had jocks - which were
> recently fired in order to save money. Because the ratings
> are slipping.
>
> Toronto is the closest thing Canada has to a big US market -
> culturally. Yes, there are differences (which would
> actually HELP a "Jack" format) but many similarities. Based
> on the Toronto model, the format has a life span of 2 to 3
> years in a big market.

You bring up good points. Like we both agreed on, time will tell.
>
> Smaller markets are different, of course.
>
> > > No, V.H. has "flavor of the month" written all over it.
>
> > At
> > > least in Top 50 markets, where there are lots of other
> > > choices.
> >
> > We'll see if it is "flavor of the month" format. It is
> still
> > too soon to know.
> > >
>
> Yep, this will take time to sort out.
>

(Nice to have a civil discussion for a change!)
<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

more amazing

You are wrong. Many, many stations in America (especially in the major 25-54 adult arena) can be in the Top 10, make money and be considered successful. Not in Fargo or Lubbock, but a consistent Top 10 25-54 ranking in Dallas or Pittsburgh or St Louis is a great success, especially if the other format was out of the top 10 most of the time.

Again- by you guys' reasoning, most stations in America are unsuccessful and we all know that is just not true and no more than a flawed attempt to manipulate your arguments against the V.H. format.
>
> So, if Jack only gets 5th or 7th in that particular demo -
> it has failed. It's supposed to be in the top 3 in any
> given market. Even proponents of the format know that the
> 12+ numbers may stink, but this can be excused if they hit
> the target on 25-54. Not that many V.H. stations have done
> this.
>
> Yes, LA was a success story. But remember that Infinity
> took a perpetual cellar-dweller (with a class c stick) and
> made it Jack. So, it became like a "new" station on the
> dial. And, that market LOVES new things. Same occurred in
> Dallas. No harm done when you take a station that no one
> listens to and make it into something better.
>
> But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies
> stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not make
> any friends for this format. And, those are cities where
> the music played by Jack is well covered by other stations
> that actually have a personality.
>
> Also, the abrupt tempo and style changes get really old
> after a while. This am, I sampled Mike for a little while.
> They played "The Big Payback" by James Brown, which they
> followed with......a J. Geils tune! Come on, few people
> want such a jarring transition. Especially at 8 am.
>
> No, V.H. has "flavor of the month" written all over it. At
> least in Top 50 markets, where there are lots of other
> choices.
>
> To be fair, the format may do a lot better in smaller
> markets - where a "one size fits all" approach could be
> quite successful.
>