Is the verdict out for 93.7 mike fm

[OldiesCat]

truly amazing

You MUST be from a very, very small market. Making a blanket statement that "anything less than top 3 25-54 is a disappointment..." is absolutely, flat-out wrong.

Ask any A.E. in Phoenix or St Louis or Nashville if they'd like to be able to go out and sell their station's Top 5 25-54 numbers- the answer would be a resounding YES (format notwithstanding).

This is real nonsense, all the V.H. format naysayers, trying to make it look like anything but #1 or close to it is a failure. Nobody EVER said that would be the case. Again, the V.H. format in most cases is resulting in noticably higher 25-54 ratings- that IS the whole idea, gents.

> > >
> Which is why anything less than top 3 in 25-54 is a
> disappointment for this format.
>
> > It's supposed to be in the top 3 in any
> > > given market.
> >
> > Some markets are different. For example, alternative rock
> > may work in X city but may not work in Y city. The same
> goes for Jack. Some markets may like it, some may not.
>
> Not relevant to what I was saying. My discussion pertained
> to the fact that "Jack" targets a specific demo. If it
> doesn't hit that demo well, it has not done its job.
> Perhaps I was misunderstood.
>
>
> > Even proponents of the format know that the
> > > 12+ numbers may stink, but this can be excused if they
> hit
> >
> > > the target on 25-54. Not that many V.H. stations have
> > done
> > > this.
> >
> > Wrong, many VH stations have done it.
> >
> And many haven't. Those who haven't are failing because
> either the format takes off or it doesn't. In the markets
> where it does not catch on immediately, it is doubtful that
> it ever will. Like Boston.
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies
> > > stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not
> make
> > > any friends for this format. And, those are cities
> where
> > > the music played by Jack is well covered by other
> stations
> >
> > > that actually have a personality.
> >
> > That is somewhat true, but WGLD (oldies) in Indianapolis
> was
> > in the Top 5 when they flipped to Jack and they are still
> > doing well. They're still in the Top 5 and I wouldn't call
>
> > that a failing format just because it may not be in 1st or
>
> > 2nd place.
>
> A small enough (or medium enough) market for a station like
> Jack to do okay. But, nothing like Boston. Many other
> oldies stations were flipped to "Jack" in the eternal quest
> for 25-54 demos only to lose gobs of listeners. In the case
> of WCBS-FM, they lost 25-44's too. The format is a complete
> disaster there.
>
>
> > >
> > > Also, the abrupt tempo and style changes get really old
> > > after a while. This am, I sampled Mike for a little
> > while.
> > > They played "The Big Payback" by James Brown, which they
>
> > > followed with......a J. Geils tune! Come on, few
> people
> > > want such a jarring transition. Especially at 8 am.
> >
> > Apparently, LOTS of people want such a jarring transition.
>
> > It may not work in Boston, but it works in a lot of other
> > markets.
> > >
>
> It gets old. I firmly believe that it will even get old in
> those markets where "Jack" is strongest. "Jack 92.5" in
> Toronto replaced a CHR "Kiss" format a couple of years ago.
> Initially it made a big splash, but it has floated downward
> in recent books. And, they actually had jocks - which were
> recently fired in order to save money. Because the ratings
> are slipping.
>
> Toronto is the closest thing Canada has to a big US market -
> culturally. Yes, there are differences (which would
> actually HELP a "Jack" format) but many similarities. Based
> on the Toronto model, the format has a life span of 2 to 3
> years in a big market.
>
> Smaller markets are different, of course.
>
> > > No, V.H. has "flavor of the month" written all over it.
>
> > At
> > > least in Top 50 markets, where there are lots of other
> > > choices.
> >
> > We'll see if it is "flavor of the month" format. It is
> still
> > too soon to know.
> > >
>
> Yep, this will take time to sort out.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

amazing

I do have access to 25-54 ratings and most are doing better, dramatically in some cases (LA, Phoenix, St Louis among many).

I wonder if this is about the V.H. format itself or the previous poster's very revealing comments about the formats Jack is supposedly "bumping off". I suspect the latter. It's the fact their fave format got changed AND these stations are seeing success without jocks- a fact that scares the you-know-what out of mediocre DJs all over this country.

There's also a lot of "but this music is played on a lot of other radio stations". That's not relevant- now, there's one station that plays a little bit of everything. AND LISTENERS ARE DIGGING IT!


>
> I think there are more stations doing better than stations
> now doing well. I can't prove my opinion because I don't
> have access to the 25-54 numbers.
> >

> > > > But, bumping off popular - personality driven - oldies
> > > > stations (as in NY, Chicago, etc.) for this will not
> > make any friends for this format. And, those are cities
> > where the music played by Jack is well covered by other
> > stations that actually have a personality.
> > >

 

[classicradionut]

Let me help the programmers (really. read this)

> But then, it became clear that most Jacks (not all, but
> "most"), do not have jocks. And then, I began to listen, and
> realized that the style of music selected is very narrow.
> It's mostly progressive rock music, with some disco, some
> currents dropped in here and there. Yeah, every now and then
> there's a "wow" song. But to get there, you have to sit
> through a bunch of songs you've never heard of; not exactly
> what I had in mind.

At the risk of offending my current (for one more day) employer, Infinity...

What they did here in Memphis, is the Jack format with jocks weekends and regular HotAC during the week. It's been fully integrated into the format. Yes, its still a trainwreck of songs, but in what I consider to be brilliant programming (this should be the norm, by the way), the imaging is actually hillarious, we take requests (we say, if we can find it), and the music is changed out very often. Yes, there's a lot of disco, but we'd play a different mix if we didn't have two classic rockers in a market that really doesn't support rock. The ratings for this station are sky high compared with a year ago. In short, WMC-FM Memphis does this Jack format the RIGHT way, WITH jocks and a massive playlist. Tight, normal format Monday 12am to Friday 5pm, then basically JACK-FM, only what I'd term the next generation of the format.

IF Entercom would do this to Mike-FM, it would stand a chance of making a real dent in the ratings. IN my opinion. I'll be there in four days. Anyone wanna chat about it?<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[classicradionut]

Re: V.H.

> All of what you're saying is fine- except, in most markets
> in America, it's working and working well.
>

Man.... it's NOT working well in most markets. Mediocre at best. Yes some markets its leading. But, dude, a jukebox on shuffle ain't what people wanna hear out of their radio. Variety, YES. Trust me on this, you're on the wrong train here. Look at the markets where it is a success... L.A., for example. These days with the large hispanic population, almost NO traditional format works, so that left a big hole for VH.

Boston is not L.A. and people like intelligent people behind microphones, not this junk called MIKE and it's insulting sweepers.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[classicradionut]

Re: more amazing

> Again- by you guys' reasoning, most stations in America are
> unsuccessful and we all know that is just not true and no
> more than a flawed attempt to manipulate your arguments
> against the V.H. format.

Get a grip. YOu got something about stations with personality? We are trying to give you the facts, and all we read is your affinity for 5th & 7th place stations spinning for one small demo. I agree with the previous poster. It likely is a good thing for small markets with little competition, since the wide variety is exactly what listeners can't hear due to a lack of signals. But not in large markets where the music can be heard simply by hitting a preset.... which, by the way, they still do even with Jack.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[classicradionut]

Re: amazing

> I wonder if this is about the V.H. format itself or the
> previous poster's very revealing comments about the formats
> Jack is supposedly "bumping off". I suspect the latter.
> It's the fact their fave format got changed AND these
> stations are seeing success without jocks- a fact that
> scares the you-know-what out of mediocre DJs all over this
> country.

So, I assume you're a station manager who flipped or will flip to Jack, you're sick of paying jocks and need to drop the bottom line. And this is your arguement?

No offense, not trying to be confrontational, but even if the success of your favorite format is as dramatic as you claim, its not going to have long term success, and it's counter productive to the entire industry, to the talented and not-so-talented alike. How, in Heaven's name is traditional radio going to separate itself from Satellite and internet radio, radio to cell phones and every other new gadget that comes out if it morphs into simply a talkless endless music machine that STILL turns listeners off by playing commercials? MY mp3 player on shuffle doesn't play commercials, and neither do the CDs I burn from my mp3 collection (which I ripped from my CD collection and restored vynl). What makes you think that in the long run, taking all the personality out of radio is going to help our industry?

JACK, MIKE, or whatever is popular right now, but just how long before the next flash-in-the-pan format takes hold? Not that it's a bad thing, format changes are a fact of life and always have been, but anything that dumbs down the audience and gets them accustom to mediocrity is bad for radio. The station I work for, the PD won't let anything on the air that might remind listeners that an IPOD even exists. Crosstown at another group, they won't so much as let the word Sirius or XM be spoken in the office, much less on the air.

This is the reason why, as you say, I'm biased against VH. It's a very BAD concept concieved out of a panicked reaction to low ratings. Change jocks. Change the music. Get a new PD who has a clue. Most ratings problems arise from either poor execution of the format, signal problems, or positioining which listeners can't relate to. So much can be done to bring in listeners without throwing the baby out with the bathwater and ruining the station for years once the JACK format has run it's course.

Jack IS a flash-in-the-pan format. It's probably appropriate for a station that nothing has worked for in years languishing at the bottom of the heap somewhere, but it damn sure is the wrong thing to do with a performing, personality oriented station of any format that still has life.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[classicradionut]

Re: your info?

> And I've been in radio even longer. Your statement toward
> the end of this rant gives true perspective for your cynical
> view of the Variety Hits format.

We all have opinions. This is a discussion not a war. I simply will reiterate an arguement I posted on another branch of this thread. This is NOT good for radio's future. And it's not about 'mediocre' jocks, it's about the ability of anyone outside of a sales guy or manager to be able to get a job in this business in the future using the mentality that an IPOD on shuffle format is great. It's not. It's a last resort format that's worked well at SOME stations in SOME markets. It's also destroyed some legendary stations and ruined it for a vast number of listeners in some markets. I see positive only for those who stand to turn a nice profit but not for anyone else.

>
> It's OK if you don't like it- we all have varying tastes and
> preferences and ineed makes the world go 'round. But to
> come on (as a Moderator) and make a seemingly factual
> statement but only back it up with, "I get my info from
> experience" is pretty lightweight.

Just because I'm moderator I'm not allowed to discuss things? It's my industry too, ya know.

>
> You don't have to like it but for those people you refered
> to "not in radio", you are giving them an incredibly
> negative, skeptical view of our industry that I don't
> believe is totally accurate.

Radio is a wonderful thing. But yes I'm negative on it, to the extent that I think there's too much big money ruining what was a wonderful fascination for several generations of former youth. The youth of today could care less... it's not fascinating to them these days, they have much better things to do than listen to radio.

We're not going to save radio by imitatiing a computer playlist with no DJs and a trainwreck of songs that listeners can get on their own IPOD player, only without commercials. Imitation NEVER solves anything. INNOVATION and creativity is the key, and you need human beings to relate to the audience to do that.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[classicradionut]

Re: Mike

> Had Entercom decided to run "Mike" (WMKK-93.7) with
> personality announcers (maybe some of the old "Star 93.7"
> announcers would have remained), I think it would be the
> hottest station in town right now, and we'd all be posting
> about how entertaining it is.

That's it. I'm gonna post some airchecks of exactly that on airchexx.com very soon and show you what a very successful format done just that way sounds like. That's what I'm doing right now, in fact, as I write this.... play the 'jack' format, only as one of the weekend personalities. We're killin the competition but it wouldn't have happened if they'd called this a Jack Weekend and gone jockless. WE take requests, and the phones are lit non-stop till what we call a Whatever weekend is done.

So, Joseph, I'm in TOTAL agreement with you on that.

>
> Maybe that's what Entercom should do. Add personality
> announcers to "Mike FM". I think that move alone would solve
> most of the station's problems.
>

See my post about that in another branch of this thread. Exactly right.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

V.H.

And, no offense intended, you aren't reading the latest Arbitron ratings reports. Go check 'em out (and be sure to read 25-54 adults) and get back to us (not just Boston and NY but all the markets where Jack/Variety Hits is on).


And, all the spin with Hispanic markets and all that notwithstanding, Jack/V.H. is working very well in many more markets than it isn't.

Really- go check out:

Phoenix
St Louis
Indy
Portland
Nashville
LA
Seattle
Dallas
Minneapolis
Austin
Vegas
SLC
Buffalo
Des Moines
Rochester
Milwaukee
Philadelphia

And more at www.varietyhits.com.

I'm not making all this up. If you really go and check, THEN come back and try and tell us it's not working, many of us will really wonder about your ability to recognize reality. I mean, really.


>
> Man.... it's NOT working well in most markets. Mediocre at
> best. Yes some markets its leading. But, dude, a jukebox
> on shuffle ain't what people wanna hear out of their radio.
> Variety, YES. Trust me on this, you're on the wrong train
> here. Look at the markets where it is a success... L.A.,
> for example. These days with the large hispanic population,
> almost NO traditional format works, so that left a big hole
> for VH.
>
> Boston is not L.A. and people like intelligent people behind
> microphones, not this junk called MIKE and it's insulting
> sweepers.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

still amazing

"one small demo"? (he's referring to 25-54, THE most important sales demo in radio today).

Do your homework- I've said on dozens of occasions that most Jack/VH stations will (and should) have personalities.


>
> Get a grip. YOu got something about stations with
> personality? We are trying to give you the facts, and all
> we read is your affinity for 5th & 7th place stations
> spinning for one small demo. I agree with the previous
> poster. It likely is a good thing for small markets with
> little competition, since the wide variety is exactly what
> listeners can't hear due to a lack of signals. But not in
> large markets where the music can be heard simply by hitting
> a preset.... which, by the way, they still do even with
> Jack.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

your info?

Wait a minute- you're gone from "the format's a failure" to "it's not good for radio's future"? I've never challenged whether it's good or bad for radio's future. You said it's a failure- anybody who can read Arbitron can clearly see that's not true.

Whether it's good for radio is an entirely different discussion.
>
> We all have opinions. This is a discussion not a war. I
> simply will reiterate an arguement I posted on another
> branch of this thread. This is NOT good for radio's future.
> And it's not about 'mediocre' jocks, it's about the ability
> of anyone outside of a sales guy or manager to be able to
> get a job in this business in the future using the mentality
> that an IPOD on shuffle format is great. It's not. It's a
> last resort format that's worked well at SOME stations in
> SOME markets. It's also destroyed some legendary stations
> and ruined it for a vast number of listeners in some
> markets. I see positive only for those who stand to turn a
> nice profit but not for anyone else.
>
> >
> > It's OK if you don't like it- we all have varying tastes
> and
> > preferences and ineed makes the world go 'round. But to
> > come on (as a Moderator) and make a seemingly factual
> > statement but only back it up with, "I get my info from
> > experience" is pretty lightweight.
>
> Just because I'm moderator I'm not allowed to discuss
> things? It's my industry too, ya know.
>
> >
> > You don't have to like it but for those people you refered
>
> > to "not in radio", you are giving them an incredibly
> > negative, skeptical view of our industry that I don't
> > believe is totally accurate.
>
> Radio is a wonderful thing. But yes I'm negative on it, to
> the extent that I think there's too much big money ruining
> what was a wonderful fascination for several generations of
> former youth. The youth of today could care less... it's
> not fascinating to them these days, they have much better
> things to do than listen to radio.
>
> We're not going to save radio by imitatiing a computer
> playlist with no DJs and a trainwreck of songs that
> listeners can get on their own IPOD player, only without
> commercials. Imitation NEVER solves anything. INNOVATION
> and creativity is the key, and you need human beings to
> relate to the audience to do that.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

amazing

Oh, goodness- I'm truly sorry you're so negative and cynical about our business.

The JACK format is NOT about dropping jocks and not paying people to make the bottom line look better. Nobody running these stations has EVER said so and you can bet many will begin to build personalities into the format as it develops. Did you know some of these V.H. stations have personalities (including most of the Jack stations in Canada, the predecessors to the U.S. generation of Jack)?
It's about getting people to listen to the radio, no more and no less. Only frustrated, paranoid, I=never-made-it disc jockeys subscibe to the "they're doing Jack to get rid of DJs" hogwash. It's a total, 100% non-starter.

I also don't know how you can predict the future of the V.H. (or any) format (because none of us knows the future) or statements like "it's turning people off" and "it's a very bad format". What is your source of this audience information? I've asked your sources before but you refuse to answer (your assertion the format's tanking eveyrwhere)?

If the state of radio in 2005 sucks so bad, it has to make one wonder why you Moderate a board? I'm not being a wise guy, I'm sincere in asking, because I really wonder how we'll ever encourage the younger folks in the business or those who read here thinking about getting in- why would they read your view of Radio and feel good about making future contributions of there's no hope?


>
> So, I assume you're a station manager who flipped or will
> flip to Jack, you're sick of paying jocks and need to drop
> the bottom line. And this is your arguement?
>
> No offense, not trying to be confrontational, but even if
> the success of your favorite format is as dramatic as you
> claim, its not going to have long term success, and it's
> counter productive to the entire industry, to the talented
> and not-so-talented alike. How, in Heaven's name is
> traditional radio going to separate itself from Satellite
> and internet radio, radio to cell phones and every other new
> gadget that comes out if it morphs into simply a talkless
> endless music machine that STILL turns listeners off by
> playing commercials? MY mp3 player on shuffle doesn't play
> commercials, and neither do the CDs I burn from my mp3
> collection (which I ripped from my CD collection and
> restored vynl). What makes you think that in the long run,
> taking all the personality out of radio is going to help our
> industry?
>
> JACK, MIKE, or whatever is popular right now, but just how
> long before the next flash-in-the-pan format takes hold?
> Not that it's a bad thing, format changes are a fact of life
> and always have been, but anything that dumbs down the
> audience and gets them accustom to mediocrity is bad for
> radio. The station I work for, the PD won't let anything on
> the air that might remind listeners that an IPOD even
> exists. Crosstown at another group, they won't so much as
> let the word Sirius or XM be spoken in the office, much less
> on the air.
>
> This is the reason why, as you say, I'm biased against VH.
> It's a very BAD concept concieved out of a panicked reaction
> to low ratings. Change jocks. Change the music. Get a new
> PD who has a clue. Most ratings problems arise from either
> poor execution of the format, signal problems, or
> positioining which listeners can't relate to. So much can
> be done to bring in listeners without throwing the baby out
> with the bathwater and ruining the station for years once
> the JACK format has run it's course.
>
> Jack IS a flash-in-the-pan format. It's probably
> appropriate for a station that nothing has worked for in
> years languishing at the bottom of the heap somewhere, but
> it damn sure is the wrong thing to do with a performing,
> personality oriented station of any format that still has
> life.
>

 

[OldiesCat]

jocks

Question for you Joseph: what person in charge of running or overseeing a Jack station has EVER said definitively "there will be no personalities on Jack stations, now or ever"? I'll break the suspense- it's NEVER been said by anybody running Jack stations. We forget that over the years, many many new radio stations (in fact, most) sign-on jockless. Everybody's freaking and overreacting because it's been up to a year in some markets. The Jack format is newly explored territory and a lot of stations are still talking to their audiences, asking them about their future expectations of Jack stations.

Everybody's ASSUMING so because there aren't jocks on some of these stations yet. Why are so many assuming Jack will stay jockless long-term? You do realize this is just a paranoid rumor propogated mostly by washed-up (or unemployed) jocks who think Variety Hits spells the end of their radio announcer careers, right?

Think about this- one of the pitch lines on Jack is "we're like an iPod on shuffle". Jack with no DJs on terrestrial radio would be, "we're like an iPod on shuffle WITH COMMERCIALS". In the end, what would be the point?


> If I had been handed the PD job of a major-market FM station
> and given free rein to program it, I would actually program
> a "Jack"-type format.....BUT with live personality
> announcers 24/7!

 

[radiolover78]

Re: V.H.

> > All of what you're saying is fine- except, in most markets
>
> > in America, it's working and working well.
> >
>
> Man.... it's NOT working well in most markets. Mediocre at
> best.

Mr.West, where are you getting your information? Many Variety Hits stations are doing very well now. Your statement is simply incorrect.

Yes some markets its leading. But, dude, a jukebox
> on shuffle ain't what people wanna hear out of their radio.

Apparently, many people do enjoy hearing a "jukebox on shuffle" on the radio. I think it is better to say "a jukebox on shuffle ain't what I wanna hear out of the radio." I'm sure many people would back you up, but facts are facts.

> Variety, YES. Trust me on this, you're on the wrong train
> here. Look at the markets where it is a success... L.A.,
> for example. These days with the large hispanic population,
> almost NO traditional format works, so that left a big hole
> for VH.
>
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