Is this the future of the format?

[armandoiazz]

There has been a lot of talk of where the format is headed; I picked this up off of the Soft A/C -- Easy Listening board. When I look at the vocals, they are not the typical A/C vocals nor are they the old R & B stuff that killed SJ. Is this the new direction of KTWV and the format?

Your thoughts guys and gals.

 

[armandoiazz]

Opps forgot to include the url:

http://www.avenue1410and1660.com/en-us/default.aspx

 

[AnotherCat]

Didn't this start in Chicago as a night show on an AM station there? It reminds me of some of the stations that popped up in the early 90s when Connick got hot and Natalie Cole was doing standards..they kinda chased that thread.

I don't think it's the direction contemporary instrumental/SJ whatever is taking but it is an interesting approach.

 

[AC Tones]

Hey Armando. Thanks for the heads up. This "Timeless Cool" approach is very similar to the one I experimented with when I first launched in July 2008. Some really loved it at first--I tossed in some feel good 70s cuts from Ambrosia, Dr. Hook, and Pablo Cruise alongside of Steely Dan, standards from Frank Sinatra and Bobby Darin, and sprinkled in some Diana Krall, Norah Jones, and Michael Buble to complement what was largely a contemporary jazz playlist. But when more diehard, "sharp" contemporary jazz listeners started to check out the station, to include guys from this board, I quickly learned that the "hardcore" listeners I really wanted to attract for the long haul were not ready for this kind of a diverse format. Does the term "train wreck" come to mind? Read that one in a number of e-mails early on from my listeners. It was WAY too challenging as a programmer to tactfully insert the aforementioned vocals alongside a playlist that was 4/5 contemporary jazz without putting off the very listeners I originally set out to attract--guys like myself who fell in love with this format in the mid-to-late 1980s and remained loyal to it even through the difficult years. So I quickly abandoned the strategy and became a NAC-heavy station, both instrumentally and vocally, because the guys who were listening 10-12+ hours a day wanted it that way. It was an easy decision for me.

I have been listening on and off to KTWV all day--not entirely sure why. It has been painful, I have to be brutally honest. They would be better off just playing a continuous loop of the same 8 songs and cutting liners that read, "Format under construction." And if today's listen is any indication, I don't see them going in the direction of "Timeless Cool." I am getting a more Urban vibe/feel--just don't see any way they can slip Frank Sinatra or Bobby Darin in anywhere, and even Steely Dan would be a challenge (save for the overplayed "Hey Nineteen") at this rate. As for the instrumental cuts, I have heard mostly overplayed "mainstream" cuts like Kenny G's "Silhouette," that I would not dare play on my station because I don't like getting any nastygrams. I just can't see anyone who embraces contemporary instrumental music (CJazz and Chill) wanting anything to do with what KTWV is doing these days. ???

 

[AnotherCat]

Some really loved it at first--I tossed in some feel good 70s cuts from Ambrosia, Dr. Hook, and Pablo Cruise alongside of Steely Dan, standards from Frank Sinatra and Bobby Darin, and sprinkled in some Diana Krall, Norah Jones, and Michael Buble to complement what was largely a contemporary jazz playlist. But when more diehard, "sharp" contemporary jazz listeners started to check out the station, to include guys from this board, I quickly learned that the "hardcore" listeners I really wanted to attract for the long haul were not ready for this kind of a diverse format.

I don't think it's so much a matter of diversity as the fact that oldies from the 70s have been burned to a crisp and people are tired of them, especially people who are seeking out another type of music (i.e. trying to get away from sameness and repetition).

I think the song that annoys me more than anything from the 70s is that Dr. Hook song where he's singing to a woman that he wants to " love you a little bit more" when she is tired and wants to go to sleep. that guy sounded like he had the tremors when he sang anyway.

 

[AC Tones]

Some really loved it at first--I tossed in some feel good 70s cuts from Ambrosia, Dr. Hook, and Pablo Cruise alongside of Steely Dan, standards from Frank Sinatra and Bobby Darin, and sprinkled in some Diana Krall, Norah Jones, and Michael Buble to complement what was largely a contemporary jazz playlist. But when more diehard, "sharp" contemporary jazz listeners started to check out the station, to include guys from this board, I quickly learned that the "hardcore" listeners I really wanted to attract for the long haul were not ready for this kind of a diverse format.

I don't think it's so much a matter of diversity as the fact that oldies from the 70s have been burned to a crisp and people are tired of them, especially people who are seeking out another type of music (i.e. trying to get away from sameness and repetition).

I think the song that annoys me more than anything from the 70s is that Dr. Hook song where he's singing to a woman that he wants to " love you a little bit more" when she is tired and wants to go to sleep. that guy sounded like he had the tremors when he sang anyway.

. Didn't spin that one, Cat. "Sharing The Night Together" was my Dr. Hook mainstay from the old format. Being sensitive to the fact that a lot of those cuts had been overplayed, I typically opted for deeper melodic cuts, like The Doobies' "Another Park, Another Sunday," which, believe it or not, is still in my rotation today, and Steely Dan's "Any Major Dude Will Tell You" and "Here At The Western World." Had the same approach with the Standards I played. I agree with you that any format that is going to employ a programming strategy like "Timeless Cool," they would be better served to avoid those "burned out," overplayed tunes that you refer to.

 

[recto101]

Look KKSF and KTWV are dead stations with R&B. More Enya more Peter White but Less Barry White.

 

[AnotherCat]

I loved "Here At The Western World" that one sounds timeless.."For Someone Special" was always kind of a Doobies nugget too. I always liked Doobies "Living on the Fault Line" album back then...lots of good songs but more adventurous than the ones that came out before and after it. Also Carly Simon's "Tranquillo" with Hubert Laws..

In the late 70s/early 80s there were a lot of good "Soft Rock" songs and stations that were flirting with the soft rock/cjazz mix. I interned at one and was involved with 2 others. The diff between instrumental/vocal mixes then and now was that we used contemporary vocals that were compatible with the instrumental music. Now they use overly familiar oldies vocals as a way to apologize for the instrumental music ("sorry bout this instrumental, it's for the people who think we are still smooth jazz..you'll here some songs you know from your younger days coming up after it's over"). There was a jazzy thread in pop music with instrumentals crossing over (James' "Taxi", Breezin, Feels So Good" etc..)then with Joni, Carly, James T, Doobies, Pablo Cruise, the WEA breaking artists (N.Larson, Ambrosia, Rickie Lee Jones, Larsen-Feiten, Randy Crawford) and of course the daddy of them all S.Dan's Aja. Lots of jazzers playing on these artist's sessions so the music was extremely compatible.

The "apologize" vocals that get played now are often not compatible either perceptually (Listener goes "why Mariah Carey or Train") or aesthetically (production and instrumentation are totally different). Creates some real trainwreck segues like "Songbird" into Clapton's Wonderful Tonight..ouch!Thing is that while the stations that have flipped to Smooth A/C (and it IS a flip) are looking for the overly familiar to flob there are some wonderful compatible vocals going unnoticed. Gotta dig for them because they usually end up categorized as chill or pop and dont have big label bucks behind them but they are out there!

That being said it's hard for me to connect with the 70s anymore outside of an historic context. THat was 40 years ago. Good for an occasional nugget but mostly Time to move on..

 

[AC Tones]

Steely Dan's "Aja," at least for me, will go down as one of the greatest albums ever made in my lifetime. Their music is indeed "Timeless" and will work in this format for years if not decades to come. That said, I still avoid those cuts that have more airplay mileage than a '73 Nova (Deacon Blues, Peg, and Josie), and instead opt for the relatively underplayed deeper gems on the album like Black Cow, all 8 minutes worth of the classic title cut, and Home At Last. And Bill H. recently reminded me of another viable, more obscure cut of Donald Fagen genius---"True Companion," which can be had on Steely Dan's "Gold" release. I am constantly looking for underplayed, jazz-influenced rock/pop vocal cuts from the late 1970s to incorporate into my playlist. These kind of tunes can seemlessly be added as a change of pace to any instumental-heavy rotation, IMO.

 

[AnotherCat]

I am constantly looking for underplayed, jazz-influenced rock/pop vocal cuts from the late 1970s to incorporate into my playlist. These kind of tunes can seemlessly be added as a change of pace to any instumental-heavy rotation, IMO.

I'm constantly looking for underplayed jazz influenced rock/pop vocal cuts from the late 90s through now..it's a hard but rewarding dig that involves checking out a lot of "people also bought" on Amazon and iTunes. There are a lot of them out there and surprisingly enough I am hearing a lot of stuff with great potential on a local eclectic/mix/chill show - Electro Lounge which does stream and post playlists on www.wjct.org . That's where I found Lisa Shaw (very sade-ish), Pat Appleton, Victor Davies, Shawn Escoffery (killer update on J. Martyn's "Solid Air), and a delicious little cluster of songs he threw down between 10:30 and 11pm Saturday night. And I get some strong tips and search launches from Mr. Harmonic Lounge

Discovering new vocals is a matter of remember to be mass-appeal and hear a strain of familiarity within the context of the new.

 

[Bill Harmonic]

I'm very excited to see what is being posted here because I believe it will help to keep this format alive. The exploration for new music and the constant search for those gems we all know will get a response from our listeners is what makes the whole thing worth it. I'm laughing because I thought I was the only one stealing ideas from everyone else! Our quest now is to continue to find those tunes that mesh in our individual work. Music without borders. Songs with heart. Sounds that transcend any research project and go straight to the soul of any audience. This feels very much like the beginning and that's a good thing. It feels like success and we are once again dancing with the process that got us to the ballgame to begin with. Hunt well!

 

[AnotherCat]

I have a whole list of links for brunch, specialty and internet stations that post their playlists. I check 'em weekly and drop in on the internet stations a few times a week and note/check out any songs I havent heard yet that show up on the lists. That often leads to checking out other songs that are linked/suggested on itunes or amazon.

I go for stuff that has a familiar sound but is interesting and original enough to excite listeners rather than lulling them into passivity. BTW Bill, check out "The Flow" by Vargo if you haven't already.

 

[Bill Harmonic]

I do the same thing every week. I also check out any used CD stores in my travels for gems. I have the Vargo cut and thanks for the heads up. I've told you before and I'll repeat it here, that I'm always amazed that no matter how long we are in this business, there are so many artists that we have not heard of that will fit what we are doing. That's what started this format and I think that's what will give it new life, no matter what platform it will be found on. My motto in looking for tunes that work is that it has to be "Commerically Eclectic". I'm always looking for that unknown middle ground that's not too hip for the room but is also not boring and safe (what we became). There so much to choose from but you also have to have the skill to put it together. I can give anyone the pieces to the bomb but you have to know how the parts work to make it go BOOM.

 

[AC Tones]

I have a whole list of links for brunch, specialty and internet stations that post their playlists. I check 'em weekly and drop in on the internet stations a few times a week and note/check out any songs I havent heard yet that show up on the lists. That often leads to checking out other songs that are linked/suggested on itunes or amazon.

I go for stuff that has a familiar sound but is interesting and original enough to excite listeners rather than lulling them into passivity. BTW Bill, check out "The Flow" by Vargo if you haven't already.

Bill/Cat: Imitation is the best form of flattery . I have made no bones about my playlist/strategy largely being influenced by Steve Hibbard, Cheri Marquart, and Laurie Cobb of the defunct Jones Radio Networks. This is a big radio world in which we live and there is an opportunity for all of us to share our passions with our listeners and our ideas with each other. While our longterm strategies are quite similar, we all have slightly varying tastes and approaches, but isn't that the beauty of what we do? And the benefactors of the diversity in our "styles" are our listeners.

Speaking of Vargo, also check out "The Moment" and "Get Back To Serenity" from the same CD. I have gotten nice feedback from those and the aforementioned "The Flow" cut, which I spin as well.

 

[Nock]

Me. I'm spinning a new track by David Byrne, Fatboy Slim and Santigold with a track called Please Don't also throwing in a remix of Florence and The Machine titled You've got the love. Remix by XX and available as a free download. Part of the beauty of spinning the show on Vanderbilt Universities toy. Surrounded by a lot of very cool tunes in regular rotation that occasionally catch the ear. If I place these tracks in the right spot of my show, you would be amazed at the response I am getting, College kids are diggin what I am doing and I know i have the rest of the age groups. BTW check out a cd by Paul Speers titled Occulus. Cd has blown me away. Did not realize he lives just down the road from me. Well couple of hours west. I also threw in the save Haiti tune out by Bono, Jay-Z, The Edge and Rhiana. Throw it all together properly and you get "The Future Of Jazz"

Nock
The Future Of Jazz

 

[RBW]

I don't think it's so much a matter of diversity as the fact that oldies from the 70s have been burned to a crisp and people are tired of them,

First of all let me address "AC" by saying that since one of the first rants I did on here, I've been sampling your WAVE and am pretty impressed! I've heard some great stuff, including a few from my own collection, which would not normally be heard on the radio. And I'm almost certain that when I hear one of my favorites, it WON'T seque into those tiresome EW&F hits "September" or "After the Love Has Gone"!!! -- Anyway, your mix is very impressive.

So, here's my story. What brought me to appreciate jazz was a Chuck Mangione concert my (older) brother took me to in the 70's. I graduated to be a big fan of George Benson, Freddie Hubbard, The Crusaders, David Sanborn and others. Slowly I changed with the times and tasted more contemporary artists, and enjoyed a little acid jazz as well. BIG, BIG fan of Dancing Fantasy! I think I may (almost) have all their CD's now. In the 70's however, I was also a huge disco fan... and was still getting to know jazz better.

When I was a DJ (80's & 90's) I played all AC, oldies & classic rock. Naturally in my off hours I listened to jazz. Being in the business however turned me OFF to ALL general AC & lite rock formats. Several years ago, I began developing a taste for adult standards. This was mainly because it was different from lite rock, and I desperately needing something to alternate from the jazz. This brings me current to the "current" topic.

I LOVE smooth jazz... and I LOVE Sinatra, Bennet, Cole (Nat), Como etc... and by the sound of it, this "Timeless Cool" format is NOT that. But I don't think they'd mix anyway. It sounds as though there's not much of an instrumental mix on this new format.

Re: The quoted line about the 70's ... It's the (70's) songs that the standards mix plays that I tire of less. I've always been a big Carpenters fan. Then in another post we talked about those 80's hits (Luther, Luther & more Luther!!) that I CANNOT STAND hearing on so-called "smooth jazz" stations. Some of them I thought were SO COOL back when... but as it's been noted, they've been burnt to a crisp and I wish they'd put them out of their misery and burn them completely!

Anyway, have I made my point yet? :

 

[Nock]

Anyway, have I made my point yet? :

Point received over here. You sound a lot like myself and how I was drawn to this incredible music. Studying to Sanborn, Weather Report and Jean Luc Ponty while in college in the late 70's. Did college radio back then which ruined my head for mainstream radio,

Nock

 

[AC Tones]

Thanks for the kind words, RBW, and for checking out the station! I too am a big DF fan, and you have perhaps noticed that my playlist is loaded with their cuts (and Blue Knights as well). I have always loved their vibe and the versatility of their tunes (suited for all day airplay).

As for my story, I am a frustrated hobby broadcaster in a public servant's body. Nothing more, nothing less. But the good folks at Jazziz magazine thought it would be an interesting read for someone (God help their readers ;D), so you will have an opportunity in March to read about about how I got into this music and launching my humble little venture that is "The .wav" (AC Tones' shameless radio-info self-promotion #192 ). But I can tell you that none of this would have been possible without the friendship and mentoring I have received from veteran posters/industry folks like Noch, Bill Harmonic, and others I have gotten to know on this board, many of whom I proud to have as loyal listeners and consider friends for life.

One thing I learned very early on from this forum was just how passionate everyone is about this music, and how we all have a stake in its survival, and for nothing other than the intrinsic value each of us derives from listening to it for hours on end. I think you will very much enjoy some of the "stories" told by posters on some of the old Jones Radio Networks Smooth Jazz threads circa October 2008, how they tied Jones' programming to vivid, pleasant memories of vacations they took with friends and family. You are in good company, my friend. No need to justify or explain yourself about why this music touches you, but we always love hearing it.

 

[RBW]

I have been listening on and off to KTWV all day--not entirely sure why. It has been painful, I have to be brutally honest. They would be better off just playing a continuous loop of the same 8 songs and cutting liners that read, "Format under construction." And if today's listen is any indication, I don't see them going in the direction of "Timeless Cool."

From listening to them last night for awhile I have to agree with you. They seem to be more of what they'd call a "smooth" format -- minus the jazz! Not my cuppa tea. When comparing "WAVE" formats, they're sure different from the WAVE 94.7 (CIWV) Hamilton, Ontario. They have a much more traditional SJ format.

 

[AC Tones]

I have been listening on and off to KTWV all day--not entirely sure why. It has been painful, I have to be brutally honest. They would be better off just playing a continuous loop of the same 8 songs and cutting liners that read, "Format under construction." And if today's listen is any indication, I don't see them going in the direction of "Timeless Cool."

From listening to them last night for awhile I have to agree with you. They seem to be more of what they'd call a "smooth" format -- minus the jazz! Not my cuppa tea. When comparing "WAVE" formats, they're sure different from the WAVE 94.7 (CIWV) Hamilton, Ontario. They have a much more traditional SJ format.

Overall, CIWV does a respectable job--far better than KTWV has been for some time. Still too many vocals for my personal taste (about 50/50), but they go deeper on CDs and lean towards upbeat, melodic instumentals like Brian Tarquin's "Darlin' Darlin' Baby," Warren Hill's "Daydreamer," and Peter White's "San Diego," instead of those of the "overfunked" variety.