It's not just KRTH, and not just Los Angeles.

[TheBigA]

I think we’re starting to see bigger issues plague radio than a song or two we may not like. Today’s CHR could be very problematic for radio going forward, as so much of it sounds the same.

I think that's why you're seeing CHR stations starting to add country songs from Morgan Wallen and Luke Combs. They bring some variety to the format. Part of the problem comes from the music industry itself. It promotes collaboration among genres. You see it during the Grammy awards. You see it in cross-genre collaborations. That leads to a homogenization of the music.

History Being Made: Country Songs Take Top Two Positions On Billboard’s Hot 100.

“Last Night” by Morgan Wallen is sitting at No. 1 on Billboard’s Hot 100 chart for the 12th straight week, while Luke Comb’s cover of Tracy Chapman’s “Fast Car” moves

www.insideradio.com

 

[michael hagerty]

I think we’re starting to see bigger issues plague radio than a song or two we may not like. Today’s CHR could be very problematic for radio going forward, as so much of it sounds the same. There are exceptions, and many artists still make good music (which will stand the test of time), but there’s a lot of junk to weed out too. I guess that’s always been true, but it will give tomorrow’s programmers some extra work.

....and he pulls a save in the final sentence.

Seriously---that's the same argument made about the 90s at the time.

 

[davideduardo]

....and he pulls a save in the final sentence.

Seriously---that's the same argument made about the 90s at the time.

And during the later 70's disco era...

 

[CTListener]

And during the later 70's disco era...

For most of the MTV/rock-dominated '80s, I think the prevailing attitude was that disco was truly dead and would never be heard on radio again. But over the decades, as the money demo's musical tastes drifted away from rock and toward rhythmic genres, disco hits found their way on to oldies/classic hits playlists. Of course, those hits are now largely 45 to 50 years old, so they're disappearing from radio again -- much as Motown already has -- because they attract too many 55+ listeners.

 

[jt99]

For most of the MTV/rock-dominated '80s, I think the prevailing attitude was that disco was truly dead and would never be heard on radio again. But over the decades, as the money demo's musical tastes drifted away from rock and toward rhythmic genres, disco hits found their way on to oldies/classic hits playlists. Of course, those hits are now largely 45 to 50 years old, so they're disappearing from radio again -- much as Motown already has -- because they attract too many 55+ listeners.

Some would even argue that disco never truly died, as a decent amount of '80s pop songs still heard on the radio today are influenced by disco to a degree. Not to mention disco's influence on eurodance in the '90s.

 

[rparky54]

Some would even argue that disco never truly died, as a decent amount of '80s pop songs still heard on the radio today are influenced by disco to a degree. Not to mention disco's influence on eurodance in the '90s.

And just like that, it was called Dance Music when disco wasn't cool anymore!

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

For most of the MTV/rock-dominated '80s, I think the prevailing attitude was that disco was truly dead and would never be heard on radio again. But over the decades, as the money demo's musical tastes drifted away from rock and toward rhythmic genres, disco hits found their way on to oldies/classic hits playlists. Of course, those hits are now largely 45 to 50 years old, so they're disappearing from radio again -- much as Motown already has -- because they attract too many 55+ listeners.

As I understand it, there is no way of telling how many senior listeners are tuned into a station, because the station does not survey senior citizens. They don't give out those meters that listeners wear in their pocket to people over 55. In fact, as David explained, they don't do auditorium music tests on listeners over 45. They test people from ages 35 to 45.

If KRTH was afraid of attracting people over 55, ( which they have no way of telling, because they don't survey them), then they would hardly play any 80's music at all. The listeners who were born in 1970 and who came of age in 1985 listening to quntessential 80's music, are now 50 years old. They are 5 years older than the oldest listener that KRTH wants to attract.

Short of the "KRTH police" breaking into the house of seniors and threatening to arrest them for listening to classic hits, how can KRTH prevent seniors from listening to classic hits of the 80's? Even if they don't play disco, seniors will still listen to rock n' roll, and the big hits of the 80's were rock n' roll hits. 80's songs sound very close to 60's songs. JMO.

 

[TheBigA]

As I understand it, there is no way of telling how many senior listeners are tuned into a station, because the station does not survey senior citizens.

Not true.

If KRTH was afraid of attracting people over 55

What are you talking about?

 

[davideduardo]

As I understand it, there is no way of telling how many senior listeners are tuned into a station, because the station does not survey senior citizens. They don't give out those meters that listeners wear in their pocket to people over 55. In fact, as David explained, they don't do auditorium music tests on listeners over 45. They test people from ages 35 to 45.

PPM, Nielen Portable People Meters, are assigned to a representative sample in each market from age 7 onward. There is no upper age limits.

As for music testing, each station surveys its own core audience. I'd imagine KRTH dos 35 to 49. There is no need to survey 50-54 as they have been surveyed many time before and is not the "gold" target.

Each station does its own testing of its own listeners and its own ethnic, gender and age based sample design.

I think you are confusing ratings (Nielsen) with station research. Nielsen measures all listening, 7 and over, every day, 24 hours a day. Stations do music and perceptual research on demand.... KRTH might do two full music tests a year and also might do some perceptual research as well. These are one or two day projects and don't measure audince.

If KRTH was afraid of attracting people over 55, ( which they have no way of telling, because they don't survey them),

There is no reason to, because they produce no revenue generating audience.

Short of the "KRTH police" breaking into the house of seniors and threatening to arrest them for listening to classic hits, how can KRTH prevent seniors from listening to classic hits of the 80's? Even if they don't play disco, seniors will still listen to rock n' roll, and the big hits of the 80's were rock n' roll hits. 80's songs sound very close to 60's songs. JMO.

KRTH does not care if older people listen. They just don't seek them out as they mean nothing in added revenue.

 

[TheBigA]

They don't give out those meters that listeners wear in their pocket to people over 55.

And yet John Sebastian, PD of KOAI in Phoenix proudly posted his station's ratings on his Facebook page. Take a look:

Nielsen May MonthlyToday we have a 5.7 share 6+!!!
Here’s how we did with our target age group:
55+ #1 All Week!
55+ #1 Commercial station AM Drive!
55+ #1 overwhelmingly Middays
55+ Virtual tie for #1 Commercial station PM Drive
55+ #1 by a mile Weekends!

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

So that I can understand this accurately and won't keep asking the same questions:

Nielson hands out the portable meters to people age 7 and upward, which measures all listening 24 hours a day.
So there are 55 and older carrying those meters.

But, KRTH does not care if older people listen. There is no way to stop them, except by playing newer songs, which might disinterest them, then the seniors carrying the meters would tune in something else.

But at KOAI in Phoenix, 55+ appears to be their target age group. However, that's unusual, because most stations don't want listeners that old, because they don't produce any revenue.

Is this correct? I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn how ratings are done. I didn't realize that Nielson gave meters to anyone older than 45. Thank you, from Daryl

 

[davideduardo]

So that I can understand this accurately and won't keep asking the same questions:

Nielson hands out the portable meters to people age 7 and upward, which measures all listening 24 hours a day.
So there are 55 and older carrying those meters.

Yes. Every age group, gender, ethnicity, education level and income level is measure in proportion to their participation in the population, age 7 and above.

But, KRTH does not care if older people listen. There is no way to stop them, except by playing newer songs, which might disinterest them, then the seniors carrying the meters would tune in something else.

Possibly. But for any commercial station, those over 55 are not what they seek. A couple of stations which do mostly direct to client sales can get by with lower rates and more minutes of commercials an hour; these are stations like KNX and KFI.

But at KOAI in Phoenix, 55+ appears to be their target age group. However, that's unusual, because most stations don't want listeners that old, because they don't produce any revenue.

And KOAI produces about 25% of the revenue that its two sister stations get.

Is this correct? I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to learn how ratings are done. I didn't realize that Nielson gave meters to anyone older than 45. Thank you, from Daryl

The same meters will eventually cover radio, TV and streams. So Nielsen has to measure everyone old enough to carry the meter.

 

[Daryl Lynn L.A.]

Thank you, David ! I appreciate the clarification. -- D.

 

[TheBigA]

But at KOAI in Phoenix, 55+ appears to be their target age group. However, that's unusual, because most stations don't want listeners that old, because they don't produce any revenue.

There are 16,000 radio stations in the US. Lots of different ways to do things. Stations get revenue in different ways, or have different priorities. Plus there are 4195 non-commercial radio stations that don't care about advertisers. They get operating funding from listeners. In that case, it's the listeners that produce the revenue. So stations like KCSN or KPCC don't care about the age of their listeners.

In commercial stations, advertisers produce revenue. The advertisers want to reach specific groups of people, and radio helps them do that. There are advertisers that want to reach over 55, and you can hear them on KFI and KNX. Those advertisers feel their messages are more effective on talk radio rather than music radio.

In the case of KRTH, my take is they want a broad range of listeners. It's not that they're "afraid" of over 55. But too many of one group will shift the balance. KOAI is actually targeting over 55. They PD there says they're an untapped market. This article is from 2019:

Why Sebastian Believes in His New Format. - Radio Ink

When was the last time a new format came along, stuck around and made money for managers across the country? Is it really possible to come up with a brand new format these days? One that actually generates advertiser interest? John Sebastian says yes, yes indeed.

radioink.com

He's been doing this format in Phoenix for several years, and so far, it's done well in the ratings, but it hasn't accomplished the revenue goals he had hoped for. But the station owner gets enough money from his other stations in the market to fund this un-staffed oldies jukebox. KRTH listeners expect the station to have local hosts, and for that, they need more money.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

KRTH listeners expect the station to have local hosts, and for that, they need more money.

Do they? A lot of KRTH listeners are Jack listeners too. I don't see listeners picketting outside the Jack studios for more DJ jobs. Quite the opposite, I hear Jack being blasted by the guy in the yellow corvette that just drove by.

I bet if you took all the DJs off of KRTH tomorrow, less than half of the listeners would even notice.

 

[Weiserguy]

Do they? A lot of KRTH listeners are Jack listeners too. I don't see listeners picketting outside the Jack studios for more DJ jobs. Quite the opposite, I hear Jack being blasted by the guy in the yellow corvette that just drove by.

I bet if you took all the DJs off of KRTH tomorrow, less than half of the listeners would even notice.

And *that* gets us into the discussion about why stations employ talent to be on their air in the first place.

A frequent complaint is that jocks talk too much and detract from the music. But another frequent complaint is that, with the exception of the morning drive jock, everybody's turned into "liner card readers", no personality, not saying anything interesting, only even cracking the mic a few times an hour as a transition into and out of commercial blocks.

If your model of Classic Hits radio is High Energy Personality Radio, hypothetically (because they're all dead) Robert W. Morgan in the mornings, The Real Don Steele in the afternoons, and Charlie Tuna, Roger Christian and Humble Harve in the other dayparts, then you'll never be satisfied with the current style or talent roster. But if they were to attempt that "KHJ Boss Jock" style again, they'd see their ratings crater, because most listeners in their target demos would hate all the interruptions. They come for the music, not the blather.

Listeners who would enjoy a high-energy presentation, with a lot of talking between songs, have aged out of KRTH's target demo. Even they would burn out after extended TSL, because it's a dated style, and it screams "Sixties/Seventies". The target demo wasn't yet born, or were little kids, when that style faded away.

The other extreme is "Jack". No live jocks at all, just the music, the commercials, and a few pre-recorded liners. (Do they even still do the snark?) Sure, you get the music, but the price is the 16 minute (or whatever it is) commercial load. If there's no value-add, then why not just go to Spotify? I get the ad-supported version, and Spotify feeds me maybe two minutes of ads every half hour. And I can skip a song I don't like, or switch musical styles on demand if I start getting bored. Can Jack do any of that? And even if it could, 16-4=12 more minute of music per hour.

So Audacy is giving listeners their choice: subdued personality, or no personality. Seems to be working for them today, even if it's leading to the death of music radio tomorrow.

 

[michael hagerty]

If your model of Classic Hits radio is High Energy Personality Radio, hypothetically (because they're all dead) Robert W. Morgan in the mornings, The Real Don Steele in the afternoons, and Charlie Tuna, Roger Christian and Humble Harve in the other dayparts, then you'll never be satisfied with the current style or talent roster. But if they were to attempt that "KHJ Boss Jock" style again, they'd see their ratings crater, because most listeners in their target demos would hate all the interruptions. They come for the music, not the blather.

Listeners who would enjoy a high-energy presentation, with a lot of talking between songs, have aged out of KRTH's target demo. Even they would burn out after extended TSL, because it's a dated style, and it screams "Sixties/Seventies". The target demo wasn't yet born, or were little kids, when that style faded away.

It's worth remembering that when Bill Drake consulted KRTH and brought it back to solid ratings 31 years ago, he hired Boss Jocks---but he didn't give them the ability to crack the mic every record. The format was designed to limit the jocks (except Robert W.). Yeah, The Real Don Steele was doing afternoons on KRTH, but he was talking four times an hour.

Even then.

 

[TheBigA]

Seems to be working for them today, even if it's leading to the death of music radio tomorrow.

Maybe. As I often say, radio companies aren't in the music distribution business. If it goes away, they do something else. The music part of it benefits music companies, and they prefer you use Spotify because they get paid. But what we see is that for now, people use both. The bigger radio companies are focusing on original content creation. Which ironically is what radio did in the 1930s before the rise of music DJs. Audacy could have replaced 97.1 with a music format, but they instead did a simulcast of KNX.

In my view, what's leading to the 'death of music radio' is the fractionalization of the music, to the point where music does less to unite people and more to divide. The reason radio plays music is to attract an audience. But there's less music that appeals to a large, broad range of people. Instead everyone has their personal favorites and playlists. The constant complaint about radio has to do with the music.

 

[davideduardo]

Do they? A lot of KRTH listeners are Jack listeners too.

Actually, the sharing between the two is about the same as with KOST, KBIG and then KTWV and KIIS FM

Most "cume sharing" is based on mood, not similarity. People obviously select their preferred stations not for similarities but for differences.

 

[Weiserguy]

... Audacy could have replaced 97.1 with a music format, but they instead did a simulcast of KNX.

Yes they could have. But they also could have rolled the dice and replaced 97.1 with something totally original, or a creative new variation of a known format. Which may have worked, or not. Instead they opted to simulcast a 55-year-old format. Very safe, totally uncreative. However, keeping KNX alive and viable by transitioning it to FM -- the simulcast being only Step One -- does continue a public service to the people of Los Angeles and greater SoCal, whether they realize it or not. So it's a mixed bag.

Which is why, btw, KCBS, WBBM, WINS, KYW and the others are already simulcasting, and why NYC's WCBS and any remaining standalone cousins will also need to simulcast, sooner rather than later (or never). It's an expensive format to execute, so they don't have the same competition as another Johnny-come-lately music format. And it does bill well, in some markets having higher cume and better billing than any available alternative. All-News has more long-term staying power if it exists on FM. (Since AM is going away, the only issue being when.)

In my view, what's leading to the 'death of music radio' is the fractionalization of the music, to the point where music does less to unite people and more to divide. The reason radio plays music is to attract an audience. But there's less music that appeals to a large, broad range of people. Instead everyone has their personal favorites and playlists. The constant complaint about radio has to do with the music.

Which again is an argument for preserving a unique spoken-word format like All-News. As the Merlin folks discovered the hard way, the cost of entry and the difficulty of executing it well means the established player in any market isn't likely to see any direct competition.