Jack FM 'down the drain' in latest NYC ratings

[AQH]

Re: a fad?

> It's only a "fad" if the success doesn't last.

Right. Like the markets that have been cited several times before.


> Six or seven years ago, critics were calling reality TV
> shows a "fad"- they didn't all make it big but there are
> enough successful reality television shows racking up good
> ratings that nobody but nobody calls it a "fad" anymore.
>
> If in a couple of years JACK dies off on most of it's
> current stations, then you're right.

As I have pointed out in other posts, which you refuse to acknowledge its points, Dallas has dropped out of the top three 25 to 54 (to number seven) and Denver has slipped in share and TSL (dramatically) since they respectively came on the air over a year ago.

You seem not to accept those facts. What part of those facts do you not understand and why are you not willing to accept them? You have all the markings of a troll.


> BTW- this has been driving me crazy: why when something new
> is popular, radio geeks tend to brand them a "fad"?
> Something being a growing and popular trend isn't a "fad"
> unless the success is fleeting and never really attained.

Like in Dallas in Denver. But again, you're not willing to accept that.


> By the numbers in some markets, we may already be past that
> with Variety Hits.

No, we're not. 70s, 80s, Jammin Oldies...all fads. Jack will likely follow in most markets.

The last "fad" format to stick has been Guy Zapoleon's little thing called Hot AC. Every format created after that has come and gone.

Respond in whatever way you want. You're not going to agree, but the most troublesome is how you refuse to allow people to post facts without you spinning the facts. Makes me think you're Jack Garrett or Garry Wall. Or just a troll.

 

[JustinCase]

Re: Jammin' mutt format

HUGE DIFFERENCE... the most successful Jack, Bob, Tom stations are in Canada and most of them HAVE FULL STAFFS!!! This I-pod on shuffle American version of Jack is a fad and may have success in smaller markets, where 85% or more of everything is automated anyway, but in bigger places like here in NY where people rely on NEWS, TRAFFIC AND WEATHER during their commutes this format is a dead duck!


> Not the same- no Jammin' Oldies station ever had close to
> any of the success as today's most successful Jack stations.
> Never, EVER.
> > >
> > FAD, period. It is Jammin oldies where many jumped on the
> > bandwagon before it was even proven anywhere else, its a
> fad man, period.
> >
> <P ID="signature">______________
Can I sleep now?</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

un-fad

You are factually incorrect. While it's true that the Variety Hits format is successful in Canada with jocks and I strongly believe that eventually the Jack stations are going to need to add some sort of personalities to the presentation to keep from being what I call an "iPod on shuffle WITH commercials", almost no regular radio listeners are whining about no DJs- in fact, many find the un-cluttered presentation refreshing. The only people who are adamant about adding jocks are radio people paranoid about being out of work.

Other than just a couple of American markets, JACK is off to a huge start WITHOUT jocks. It's not a fad- in focus groups and listener studies, radio listeners are overwhelmingly giving a "thumbs-up" to the wide variety and, so far, few have demanded disc jockeys. I personally believe they'll need to be a part of the mix, but to the everyday non-radio people who use Variety Hits stations, not having jocks is not exactly holding back JACK's progress.


> HUGE DIFFERENCE... the most successful Jack, Bob, Tom
> stations are in Canada and most of them HAVE FULL STAFFS!!!
> This I-pod on shuffle American version of Jack is a fad and
> may have success in smaller markets, where 85% or more of
> everything is automated anyway, but in bigger places like
> here in NY where people rely on NEWS, TRAFFIC AND WEATHER
> during their commutes this format is a dead duck!
>
>
> > Not the same- no Jammin' Oldies station ever had close to
> > any of the success as today's most successful Jack stations.
> > Never, EVER.
> > > >
> > > FAD, period. It is Jammin oldies where many jumped on
> the bandwagon before it was even proven anywhere else, its a
> > fad man, period.

 

[OldiesCat]

Jack

Well, I'm not those guys- trust me. I have no ties to them in any way.

Look- I know there are a lot of folks in radio who are vehemently opposed to the JACK concept. The "facts" are that other than about 3 total markets (NY,
Chicago and Denver), JACK is off to a great start. You speak of Dallas and how they've "dropped" from 3rd to 7th- they've never been as high as #3 25-54 and in Dallas, it's not exactly like they're jumping off bridges because they're 7th ranked- it is far higher than the previous format was ranked.

Most of the Jack stations are doing really well. But (largely) because the entire premise flies in the face of "inside-the-box" radio think, RADIO PEOPLE are furious about it. Radio people are the first to scream "we want new, we want different, we don't want 300 song playlist radio", but when a really different approach comes out (and it's WITHOUT DISC JOCKEYS), now radio people freak that "this is bad radio" and "this is a fad-it's not the way radio is done". And, it's really funny to watch.

 

[WizardofProd]

Re: Jack

> Well, I'm not those guys- trust me. I have no ties to them
> in any way.
>
> Look- I know there are a lot of folks in radio who are
> vehemently opposed to the JACK concept. The "facts" are
> that other than about 3 total markets (NY,
> Chicago and Denver), JACK is off to a great start. You
> speak of Dallas and how they've "dropped" from 3rd to 7th-
> they've never been as high as #3 25-54 and in Dallas, it's
> not exactly like they're jumping off bridges because they're
> 7th ranked- it is far higher than the previous format was
> ranked.
>
> Most of the Jack stations are doing really well. But
> (largely) because the entire premise flies in the face of
> "inside-the-box" radio think, RADIO PEOPLE are furious about
> it. Radio people are the first to scream "we want new, we
> want different, we don't want 300 song playlist radio", but
> when a really different approach comes out (and it's WITHOUT
> DISC JOCKEYS), now radio people freak that "this is bad
> radio" and "this is a fad-it's not the way radio is done".
> And, it's really funny to watch.
>
Im not opposed to Jack Vehemently or otherwise, what I am opposed to is your constant annointing of it as the next huge thing when there haas not been long enough of a gestation period for it to be legiteimately seen as anything more than a "FAD". OF course most of the stations sign on and have big numbers because it is usually radically different from what it replaced and there is a certain curiosity factor of "wow what will they play next"? but that wears off, hence it is a fad and every example you have given of successful Jack stations are all stilkl in the honeymoon gestation period. Talk to me two years from now becuase although it's cost effective for a station to pay a few board ops rather than a whole staff that doesnt mean it will still hold any interest even a year from now when people are no longer shocked by hearing "sweet home alabama" segued into "Holiday" by Madonna, it is inarguable.

 

[OldiesCat]

Jack

See, though- you've confirmed what I've said. When we see phrases like "board-ops" and "cost effective", that's the insecure side of jocks screaming out.

And, if you check throughout the history of contemporary radio, it's actually more difficult for new stations to make inroads vs. the incumbent, established stations (actually, that goes for any product). The fact that so many of the Jacks are doing well is a testament to radio listeners wanting something that's refreshing and out-of-the-box. The segue you mention at the bottom of your post is a prime example of "that's not what radio is supposed to be". What looks like a "train wreck" to us is simply two good songs to the audience, who, in the end, should be who we're after (vs. approval by fellow radio folks).
> >
> Im not opposed to Jack Vehemently or otherwise, what I am
> opposed to is your constant annointing of it as the next
> huge thing when there haas not been long enough of a
> gestation period for it to be legiteimately seen as anything
> more than a "FAD". OF course most of the stations sign on
> and have big numbers because it is usually radically
> different from what it replaced and there is a certain
> curiosity factor of "wow what will they play next"? but that
> wears off, hence it is a fad and every example you have
> given of successful Jack stations are all stilkl in the
> honeymoon gestation period. Talk to me two years from now
> becuase although it's cost effective for a station to pay a
> few board ops rather than a whole staff that doesnt mean it
> will still hold any interest even a year from now when
> people are no longer shocked by hearing "sweet home alabama"
> segued into "Holiday" by Madonna, it is inarguable.
>

 

[JustinCase]

Re: un-fad

> Other than just a couple of American markets, JACK is off to
> a huge start WITHOUT jocks.

Exactly, you prove my point exactly... a huge start... ie FAD! Jammin' Oldies and 80's Buzz are two fairly recent fad formats that blew up everywhere and within two years are virtually dead.

Those few markets you speak of tend to be like NY, where commutes are long, TRAFFIC, NEWS & WEATHER and the interaction of the Jocks to entertain you plays an important role! In smaller cities, people are already use to computers running things where even the jocks are often ALL voicetracked. So Jack is nothing much of a change except attitude. What it will deal with in the long run is, if people want music with no interaction, they'll play CD's or their I-Pod and not have to deal with commercials!<P ID="signature">______________
Can I sleep now?</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

fads

so, any product that is almost immediately popular is a fad?

The definition of a "fad" over the years has basically been: something that has major but short-lived popularity. How does the Jack/Variety Hits format fit that description (for most, less than a year into it)?
>
> Exactly, you prove my point exactly... a huge start... ie
> FAD! Jammin' Oldies and 80's Buzz are two fairly recent fad
> formats that blew up everywhere and within two years are
> virtually dead.
>
> Those few markets you speak of tend to be like NY, where
> commutes are long, TRAFFIC, NEWS & WEATHER and the
> interaction of the Jocks to entertain you plays an important
> role! In smaller cities, people are already use to
> computers running things where even the jocks are often ALL
> voicetracked. So Jack is nothing much of a change except
> attitude. What it will deal with in the long run is, if
> people want music with no interaction, they'll play CD's or
> their I-Pod and not have to deal with commercials!
>

 

[JustinCase]

Re: fads

> so, any product that is almost immediately popular is a fad?
>
>
> The definition of a "fad" over the years has basically been:
> something that has major but short-lived popularity. How
> does the Jack/Variety Hits format fit that description (for
> most, less than a year into it)?


Well let me ask you, how does it not fit into the Fad idea? It's not proven yet, and until it proves its got legs, IT'S A FAD!!!

The Jack station in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada... which was one of the originals and may be oldest of the like has jocks and is a fully operational station. Unlike all the new Jack-like stations which are completely automated and devoid of dj's.

The question is how does the listening public react after the novalty wears off and thats when we find out if its a still a FAD or transitioned into something legit!<P ID="signature">______________
Can I sleep now?</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

fads

Generally speaking, a fad is something that's popular but short-lived. If it never gets legs, it's just a failure. If, let's say for fun, two years from now a bunch of the JACK/similar stations currently getting huge ratings end up in crash n' burn mode, then we can all label it a "fad" and move on.

You keep using words like "novelty" and "legit"- sez who?

Again- it's RADIO PEOPLE who are questioning Jack's legitimacy, not regular, everyday radio listeners. Aren't we supposed to let THE LISTENERS decide what works and what doesn't?



> Well let me ask you, how does it not fit into the Fad idea?
> It's not proven yet, and until it proves its got legs, IT'S
> A FAD!!!
>
> The Jack station in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada...
> which was one of the originals and may be oldest of the like
> has jocks and is a fully operational station. Unlike all
> the new Jack-like stations which are completely automated
> and devoid of dj's.
>
> The question is how does the listening public react after
> the novalty wears off and thats when we find out if its a
> still a FAD or transitioned into something legit!
>

 

[radiolover78]

Re: Local Oldies

> > > > > The proof in the pudding will be how those stations
> > are
> > > > > doing in 12-18 months. Ad agencies are going to be
> > > > skeptical until then.
> > > >
> > > > ***the information I'm getting is that ad agencies
> LOVE
> > > the
> > > > Jack stations. To them, it's much hipper and "now"
> > than,
> > > > for instance, the Oldies station was to them. That's
> > half
> > >
> > > > the battle and right now Jack is apparently winning
> over
> >
> > > the
> > > > "agency geeks" in huge numbers.
> > > > THEN the agency geeks better go out and start buying
> the
> >
> > > products they advertise cos NO ONE else will! WBZO FM
> > > "Oldies" on Long Island is BOOMING thanks to the CBS FM
> > > fiasco! Good for WBZO!
> >
> > WLNG is oldies also and has always done well, but very
> true
> > local oldies stations normally can do well, even with pre
> > 1964 music. Its all about localism.
> >
> > > >
> > >>
> >
> Well,Manhattan is 'local' for NYC dwellers,depends on how
> you define 'local';the Nassau/Suffolk audience is a rather
> large market,it's not like 'oldies' are a hit in
> Dingleberry,Idaho!
>

It depends on the market. If oldies is the only station in a town, advertisers will advertise on it, even if they play really old oldies.<P ID="signature">______________
The Place for the Latest Happenings in Radio
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</P>

 

[seaqkumba]

Re: NYC ratings

Fair enough... I should have been more focused on the 25-54 numbers, which I didn't have.

But I still maintain that the jury is out... the only markets where this will continue to succeed is where the station:

1. tailors the format to the market (although they might play a wide variety of hits, 90% of what I heard in Seattle, for example, was rock-leaning AC music with a slight classick rock bend and then the occasional pure pop or more rhythmic track...)

2. keeps it fresh and new

3. spends a ton of $$$ marketing it properly

If they don't do those things, it WILL be a fad. But if they have more of an "exit" strategy and/or long-term plan to evolve it, it could continue to be successful.





> OK, let's look at the entire country's Jack/V.H. station
> scorecard:
>
> L.A.- #1 25-54
> Nashville- #1 25-54
> Indianapolis- #1 25-54
> Minneapolis- Top 5 25-54
> St. Louis- #1 25-54
> Phoenix- #2 25-54
> Seattle- Top 5 25-54
> Dallas- Top 7 25-54
> Baltimore- Top 8 25-54
> Austin- #2 25-54
>
> And those are just the stations who've been on for more than
> a few months.
> I could keep going, but it's pretty obvious that other than
> New York and just
> a few other markets where Jack has been on for more than a
> few months, Jack is
> doing very well.
>
>
> >
> > I don't think you can say that at all. I would NOT call
> the
> > Denver Jack (first one in the U.S. and now on the air for
> > two years) or the Chicago Jack (still pretty new)
> successful
> > at all. Even beyond that, the history shows that after
> the
> > massive TV and marketing barrage is over initially, it
> > doesn't necessarily hold its numbers. Dallas Jack has
> been
> > having those problems.
> >
> > I need to do a little more research on the others but I
> > think you very much overstate your point. I will grant
> you
> > that L.A. is doing very well.. and this is because Kevin
> > Weatherly is very sharp and is tailoring it smartly in a
> > city with a large transient population. And if you
> observe
> > it, the marketing is quite a bit different from the
> others.
> >
> > And then there are the clones... a lot of duds out there
> > including Entercom's Mike in Boston and Charlie in
> Portland,
> > and Bonneville's horrible Max in San Francisco.
> >
>

 

[OldiesCat]

jack startups

I agree with your points- and they are actually sound actions for any new sign-
on, if we think about it. I don't think these things are "jack-exclusive". Like the way they've pulled it off in NYC or not, I believe Viacom has a long-term strategy for Jack- there's way too much at stake not to.


>
> But I still maintain that the jury is out... the only
> markets where this will continue to succeed is where the
> station:
>
> 1. tailors the format to the market (although they might
> play a wide variety of hits, 90% of what I heard in Seattle,
> for example, was rock-leaning AC music with a slight
> classick rock bend and then the occasional pure pop or more
> rhythmic track...)
>
> 2. keeps it fresh and new
>
> 3. spends a ton of $$$ marketing it properly
>
> If they don't do those things, it WILL be a fad. But if
> they have more of an "exit" strategy and/or long-term plan
> to evolve it, it could continue to be successful.

 

[JustinCase]

Re: fads

> Again- it's RADIO PEOPLE who are questioning Jack's
> legitimacy, not regular, everyday radio listeners. Aren't
> we supposed to let THE LISTENERS decide what works and what
> doesn't?

Well NY there aren't very many "radio listeners" they are the LOWEST rated FM station!<P ID="signature">______________
Can I sleep now?</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

Re: fads

I didn't know the conversation was only about Jack/NYC. Your statements felt like it was about the jack format approach in general, as a new nationwide format.

If it's New York only, read back- you'll see I've been very vocal and very critical of Viacom/Infinity for how they stepped all over their johnsons in the way the did Jack FM while killing CBS-FM.

Which is it?


> Well NY there aren't very many "radio listeners" they are
> the LOWEST rated FM station!
>

 

[JustinCase]

Re: fads

> Which is it?

This is a corporate fad, just a way of cutting costs and cookie cutting something that may work in a few places, but is unproven. Listeners aren't asking for this anywhere its lead by dollar signs and in NY its a PURE joke, this type of format has no place in any significant sized city where traffic, news and weather is SO important! In smaller & mid-sized markets its not much of a stretch from what most already get, where stations are more and more automated anyway.

That said, I'll repeat its FAD and that those JACK-like stations that do survive, will do so because they'll transition into something more A/C or the 80's, 90's & Now format that many Hot AC stations have transitioned to and I think you'll see some DJ's whether live or tracked just to be able to promote themselves. <P ID="signature">______________
Can I sleep now?</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

uh, well

Now, why in heck would they do that when what they're doing is hitting Top 5 in many, #1 in most markets?

Using that line of reasoning, should a new CHR or Country format that's made a big splash recently suddenly change the product that's gotten them at/near the top?

Stop now- you're making yourself look like all the other sour-grapes, bitter ex- radio people who throw up whatever (forgive the phrase) just to see what sticks.

"Fad", "voicetracked", "cookie-cutter", "corporate", "cost cutting", "hodge-podge", "bad radio", the "news/weather/traffic", "requests", "automated", blah blah blah. Over and over, ad-nauseum, the same negative drivel.

Can't you guys come up with something new, intelligent and SUBSTANTIVE?



> That said, I'll repeat its FAD and that those JACK-like
> stations that do survive, will do so because they'll
> transition into something more A/C or the 80's, 90's & Now
> format that many Hot AC stations have transitioned to and I
> think you'll see some DJ's whether live or tracked just to
> be able to promote themselves.
>

 

[Bob1370]

> 12+ = no ratings...
>
> 12+ doesnt count..
>
> revenue more important than ratings!! radio 101

The money demos are no better. 25-54 AQH, cume, and TSL have cratered.

This book is every bit as bad as it looks, even in the numbers that count.

And you do NOT generate revenue based on numbers this bad, certainly not the $34 million annual revenue WCBS-FM was getting as recently as 2004. I'd love to lay down a bet on the proposition that the rate card they're selling from now calls for a lot lower unit rate than what CBS-FM was getting per spot at this time last year. (But I probably would get no takers willing to bet against that proposition...because y'all are too sane to bite on that one.)

What's worse, is that the press is now so uniformly negative and the "loser" label so firmly attached to Jack that the station's image is damaged irreparably, with listeners, agencies and big ticket accounts. It takes a lot less time to blow up a station's good will and position in a market than it does to build it in the first place. We know now that it can take as little as three months to destroy what took thirty years to build.

Three choices now. Infinity can either, 1)Change back to oldies, with suitable updating and expansion of the record library, and rehire all the staff they can convince to sign on, 2)Change to something completely different that represents a unique market niche that has nothing to do with Jack, or 3)Sell the station and hope to get more than stick value even though they've wrecked whatever value above stick price it once had.

Things will not get better. They can only get worse. It's hard to imagine this mess surviving much beyond the end of the year.

 

[OldiesCat]

Oldies comeback

Even if they (Infinity) did bring back Oldies, either on CBS-FM or another frequency, it thing it would be a big step backward to re-hire most of the old CBS-FM jocks. They are legends, love 'em, etc.- but several of these guys are
over 60, some around 70. Their ability to connect with 40-50 year olds (who might remember these legends but won't be able to identify with them) would be a major question mark, and that's assuming they'd have the desire and good enough health to stick around for very long.

Please don't take this as me being disrespectful of these great jocks and their history, but part of what kept CBS-FM from being able to evolve (their average audience age around 60, same at KFRC in SF) was they had too many relics (jocks, music, imaging) of what the Oldies format WAS and not enough of what it needs to be in 2005 and beyond.
>
> Three choices now. Infinity can either, 1)Change back to
> oldies, with suitable updating and expansion of the record
> library, and rehire all the staff they can convince to sign
> on, 2)Change to something completely different that
> represents a unique market niche that has nothing to do with
> Jack, or 3)Sell the station and hope to get more than stick
> value even though they've wrecked whatever value above stick
> price it once had.
>
> Things will not get better. They can only get worse. It's
> hard to imagine this mess surviving much beyond the end of
> the year.
>

 

[peppertree]

Jack sez,
"I play what I want to play. If you don't like it, too bad, it is my radio station and I will do what I want. If no one wants to listen to my station then too bad, I will STILL play what I want, 'cause I am the boss. I am Jack; Jack-FM."


> > 12+ = no ratings...
> >
> > 12+ doesnt count..
> >
> > revenue more important than ratings!! radio 101
>
> The money demos are no better. 25-54 AQH, cume, and TSL have
> cratered.
>
> This book is every bit as bad as it looks, even in the
> numbers that count.
>
> And you do NOT generate revenue based on numbers this bad,
> certainly not the $34 million annual revenue WCBS-FM was
> getting as recently as 2004. I'd love to lay down a bet on
> the proposition that the rate card they're selling from now
> calls for a lot lower unit rate than what CBS-FM was getting
> per spot at this time last year. (But I probably would get
> no takers willing to bet against that proposition...because
> y'all are too sane to bite on that one.)
>
> What's worse, is that the press is now so uniformly negative
> and the "loser" label so firmly attached to Jack that the
> station's image is damaged irreparably, with listeners,
> agencies and big ticket accounts. It takes a lot less time
> to blow up a station's good will and position in a market
> than it does to build it in the first place. We know now
> that it can take as little as three months to destroy what
> took thirty years to build.
>
> Three choices now. Infinity can either, 1)Change back to
> oldies, with suitable updating and expansion of the record
> library, and rehire all the staff they can convince to sign
> on, 2)Change to something completely different that
> represents a unique market niche that has nothing to do with
> Jack, or 3)Sell the station and hope to get more than stick
> value even though they've wrecked whatever value above stick
> price it once had.
>
> Things will not get better. They can only get worse. It's
> hard to imagine this mess surviving much beyond the end of
> the year.
>
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