Jack Off!

[allisonmarie]

> > let's face it, the word of mouth on it is sooooo bad, and
> > the memory of the campaign against it and FOR WCBS Oldies
>
> > will remain so strong, that they should just call it a day
>
> > and save themselves the embarrassement(and start
> > simulcasting Scott Shannon's "True oldies', which is
> kicking
> > ass at am850 right now!)
>
>
> Save themselves the EMBARRASMENT? This is the same company
> that's brought us the WNEW disaster!
>
> Again... you had the CEO of the company in the midst of your
> "rally" and he was LAUGHING AT YOU. What more do you need
> to realize that it ain't coming back?
>
Till the billing for the jack stations comes in at less than half of what it was before jack was launched then watch the CEO's head roll. Also, He who laughs last laughs best! This CEO is going to learn what it feels like to have a great big chunk of his tush bitten off and then watch the little wippersnapper run run run with his tail between his legs!

By the way this is not the first time that the 50's and 60's oldies have been pulled off the front burner. I have the Radio Only Issues to prove it too! Take the Oldies away for a few years and then put them back on then watch what happens!!!! This is a cycle that radio needs to go through every now and then. Its called giving the music and the listeners a rest!

 

[HiTower]

> they should just call it a day
> and save themselves the embarrassement(and start
> simulcasting Scott Shannon's "True oldies', which is kicking
> ass at am850 right now!)


Even the Radio Disney would be an improvement on FM over JHack .

 

[OldiesCat]

Jack-Oldies

what are you yelling at me- I'm agreeing with you. Geez.
>
> Can you all say Generation Gap?????????? Totally the cause
> of the symptom! Do you think heads will roll when the
> billing comes in at half of what is was before jack was
> launched in both New York and Chicago? This jack thing will
> be held at bay by the other music stations fine tuning their
> playlists and giving their on air personnel more freedom to
> entertain the audience, which is hardly a big deal! Jack
> Sucks and will go down in flames before two years goes by at
> the most! I-pods and mp3 players = The individual listeners
> favorite music their way all the time without any stupid
> comments by jack or any long long commerical breaks! Case
> closed!

 

[Jay_F]

Re: Jack-Oldies

> > > And on top of that, people will not go to AM to hear
> their
> >
> > > music.
> > >
> >
> > I totally agree. That's been proven several times over the
>
> > past couple of years.
> > Standards was the final music format people would listen
> to
> > on AM and now that audience is 65+ or passed away.
> >
> > You folks that think the over 65 citizens of this country
> are all dead are totaly wrong. This group is not living with
> one foot in the grave as many of you seem to suggest all the
> time. Why shouldn't there be a station that this
> group can listen too for the music they grew up with god
> knows there is enough
> stations on the air to go around whether its for Oldies or
> Adult Standards.
>

You took what I said wrong. I don't think anything negative about people 65+. I think there should be radio stations that appeal to them. It's the advertisers that don't want them. The older people I know are the ones that have money and spend money, but advertisers refuse to believe this/have data that conflicts with my personal obsevations/ or are convinced older adults do not change buying preferences.

>
> > > > WCBS-AM is the #6 highest billing radio station in the
>
> > > > United States. There is no way they would switch
> > formats.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Older demo income... scary.

> Not me- I see a whole TON of value in targeting 50+
> listeners, so don't blame many of us on this board. Blame
> 35 yr old GMs, 30 yr old Agency buyers and 25 yr old sellers
> who don't view Oldies (or any 45+ format) as viable- they
> think Boomers are destined to live on Social Security, have
> never touched a computer and are 100% locked into their
> buying habits.
>
> Those of us in the real world know better.

Here is where you and I disagree. In the larger markets, most business is transactional and based on numbers. Most advertising is bought by agencies or companies with ad departments. All of these, agencies and ad departments, follow the instructions of the marketing department of the advertiser.

No number of older managers or older media buyers will change this. Managers of stations do not set targets. Media buyers do not set targets. Marketers do, and this often goes back to the design of the product or service.

The fact is that retired persons, on the average, have very little money. Over 25% have nothing other than Social Security, and another 30% only have a pension and Social security. The average 401-k of a 50 year old is less than $12 thousand dollars. There is a huge myth about wealthy retired folks. If one looks at mdeian rather than average income, it looks really depressing.

 

[icybluelake]

Taking a break...

> By the way this is not the first time that the 50's and
> 60's oldies have been pulled off the front burner. I have
> the Radio Only Issues to prove it too! Take the Oldies away
> for a few years and then put them back on then watch what
> happens!!!! This is a cycle that radio needs to go through
> every now and then. Its called giving the music and the
> listeners a rest!
>
I think this is a really good point, actually. I think you could say that dance music was missed by a lot of listeners in NYC after Hot 97 flipped or morphed into rhythmic CHR/hiphop (if I remember how it happened...), and lots of markets that saw CHR disappear completely during the 90s welcomed it back with open arms years later, apparently with a lot of listeners realizing they missed it and programmers maybe realizing there was a new generation of listeners that would tune in.

I have a feeling that the falloff that alternative is experiencing in a lot of places now will result in a resurgence in rock programming sometime down the road. Not sure if the same can be said of oldies formats that are struggling or being replaced now (e.g. CBS-FM) , but I'm sure its safe to say that there will be new stations coming on line in the future that focus on music of 20-35 years ago and find lots of fans in the process.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Won't happen

> By the way this is not the first time that the 50's and
> 60's oldies have been pulled off the front burner. I have
> the Radio Only Issues to prove it too! Take the Oldies away
> for a few years and then put them back on then watch what
> happens!!!! This is a cycle that radio needs to go through
> every now and then. Its called giving the music and the
> listeners a rest!

The problem is that 60's oldies appeal to people who are way over 55, and out of the money sales demos in the markets where most sales are based on ratings and demos. There is no way to make 60's songs appeal to younger audience, and there is no way to make advertisers change the design of their products and marketing plan to keep oldies staitons alive.

Oldies may last longer in smaller markets, where sales are direct and advertisers have an interest in older listeners. In NY, CBS FM was down aby half in 25-54 ratings since '99, and billing was off by about 20%, while the market was up about the same... a loss of 40% for CBS-FM sepacificially. There is no way, rested or not, that these songs in this format will return.
>

 

[westlife]

Re: AM Music

> Then, if these "Real Oldies" stations are supposed to be
> what saved music from the 50s and 60s and that audience was
> being starved of their music, why have none of the "Real
> Oldies" stations worked? Really, all but 1 (Chicago) have
> already died.

The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in NJ is doing extremely well and the majority of their playlist still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got Jacked, they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear them play any '70s music.

<P ID="signature">______________

</P>

 

[radiolover78]

Re: Won't happen

> > By the way this is not the first time that the 50's and
>
> > 60's oldies have been pulled off the front burner. I have
> > the Radio Only Issues to prove it too! Take the Oldies
> away
> > for a few years and then put them back on then watch what
> > happens!!!! This is a cycle that radio needs to go through
>
> > every now and then. Its called giving the music and the
> > listeners a rest!
>
> The problem is that 60's oldies appeal to people who are way
> over 55, and out of the money sales demos in the markets
> where most sales are based on ratings and demos. There is no
> way to make 60's songs appeal to younger audience, and there
> is no way to make advertisers change the design of their
> products and marketing plan to keep oldies staitons alive.
>
> Oldies may last longer in smaller markets, where sales are
> direct and advertisers have an interest in older listeners.
> In NY, CBS FM was down aby half in 25-54 ratings since '99,
> and billing was off by about 20%, while the market was up
> about the same... a loss of 40% for CBS-FM sepacificially.
> There is no way, rested or not, that these songs in this
> format will return.
> >
>

Like I have said before, the additude of advertisers must change.
<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>

 

[radiolover78]

WMTR

> > Then, if these "Real Oldies" stations are supposed to be
> > what saved music from the 50s and 60s and that audience
> was
> > being starved of their music, why have none of the "Real
> > Oldies" stations worked? Really, all but 1 (Chicago) have
>
> > already died.
>
> The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in NJ is
> doing extremely well and the majority of their playlist
> still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got Jacked,
> they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear them play
> any '70s music.
>

I forgot about that station myself. It came in 3rd place in Morristown ratings. So there is one success story!<P ID="signature">______________
Check my website www.freewebs.com/radiostuffandnews
</P>

 

[Jeffrey]

Re: Won't happen

> The problem is that 60's oldies appeal to people who are way
> over 55, and out of the money sales demos in the markets
> where most sales are based on ratings and demos. There is no
> way to make 60's songs appeal to younger audience, and there
> is no way to make advertisers change the design of their
> products and marketing plan to keep oldies staitons alive.
>
> Oldies may last longer in smaller markets, where sales are
> direct and advertisers have an interest in older listeners.
> In NY, CBS FM was down aby half in 25-54 ratings since '99,
> and billing was off by about 20%, while the market was up
> about the same... a loss of 40% for CBS-FM sepacificially.
> There is no way, rested or not, that these songs in this
> format will return.
> >
>
David, Even with the lower ratings of Jack do you think Infinity makes more money jacking than with oldies? One would assume this is why they made the move.
I can understand why there would be no money in an oldies format.
In all honesty as much as I can feel for oldies fans, the format is a bit dated.... Pardon the pun.
I'm no Jack fan either. I listened once for about 10 minutes and they lost me after that. Not my cup of tea either.

 

[OldiesCat]

probably

don't want to answer for David but I'm betting his answer would be "yes".
Being #10 25-54 with a format that's hipper, sexier and cooler to time buyers
is more attractive than #8 25-54 with a format perceived as "old" (crazy as
that may sound). The younger targeted station would have their strength in
the demo be 35-44 where Oldies biggest cell within 25-54 will be 45+ (if not
older, in many cases).

> >
> David, Even with the lower ratings of Jack do you think
> Infinity makes more money jacking than with oldies? One
> would assume this is why they made the move.
> I can understand why there would be no money in an oldies
> format.
> In all honesty as much as I can feel for oldies fans, the
> format is a bit dated.... Pardon the pun.
> I'm no Jack fan either. I listened once for about 10 minutes
> and they lost me after that. Not my cup of tea either.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Won't happen

> >
> David, Even with the lower ratings of Jack do you think
> Infinity makes more money jacking than with oldies?

Makes? No. Will make? Probably, as the 25-54 is better, with more 35-44 than before. For the moment, the first year will bring considerable losses. Ad agencies generally do not jump on a format quickly, waiting several books before commiting. So any supposed savings in jocks (which is an absurd reasoning) is more than outweighed by the millions each station lost in immediate billings.

> One
> would assume this is why they made the move.

By the second year, they proba bly will have better 25-54 numbers than had they stayed with a rapidly ageing format. So they will be ahead.

 

[OldiesCat]

Older demo income

But you're talking retired persons (over 60) and I'm talking 45-54, which many Oldies stations have successfully evolved to. They have the loot, they're not so locked into their buying habits and they are huge in numbers. But again, 45+ doesn't appear worthy of time & effort when you're a 30 yr old buyer or seller.

>
> The fact is that retired persons, on the average, have very
> little money. Over 25% have nothing other than Social
> Security, and another 30% only have a pension and Social
> security. The average 401-k of a 50 year old is less than
> $12 thousand dollars. There is a huge myth about wealthy
> retired folks. If one looks at mdeian rather than average
> income, it looks really depressing.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: probably

> don't want to answer for David but I'm betting his answer
> would be "yes".
> Being #10 25-54 with a format that's hipper, sexier and
> cooler to time buyers
> is more attractive than #8 25-54 with a format perceived as
> "old" (crazy as
> that may sound). The younger targeted station would have
> their strength in
> the demo be 35-44 where Oldies biggest cell within 25-54
> will be 45+ (if not
> older, in many cases).

But, it will take a long time to make up the startup losses in redvenues and get back to the previous billing levels. The initial losses in billing will be in the millions.

 

[OldiesCat]

NJ AM Music

It's in a suburban, satellite below #100 ranked market that sees almost no agency (MAJOR) dollars. "Doing extremely well" is relative. If they were Top 20 in the NYC book, that would be a stunning success- they aren't even in the top 40.




>
> The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in NJ is
> doing extremely well and the majority of their playlist
> still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got Jacked,
> they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear them play
> any '70s music.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Won't happen

>
> Like I have said before, the additude of advertisers must
> change.
>

Why? The marketing focus of every major product and service in America is set very high up, generally with management and marketing. The product, in many cases, is designed around a desired market. And research shows who will try and buy the product and who will be a large user. The research will aslo show where there is going to be a negative return... such as trying to sell most products in older demos.

Reasons why marketers don't go after 55+

1. Many older people have firmer, time-estabilished brand preferences.
2. It costs more to create awareness, trial and usage (ATU) than the profit on the sale.
3. Retired Americans have limited funds to spend (62+ and 65+ and, increasingly, younger laid off workers)
4. The product was not designedx for older demo appeal, from product to packaging.

An example is beer. Women drink it, and older people do too. But 95% of beer advertising goes after younger demo men, especially 21-44. This is because this group consumes many multiples of the consumption of other groups, to the point that marketing to the other groups is gnerally not profitable due to image tarnishing.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Older demo income

> But you're talking retired persons (over 60) and I'm talking
> 45-54, which many Oldies stations have successfully evolved
> to. They have the loot, they're not so locked into their
> buying habits and they are huge in numbers. But again, 45+
> doesn't appear worthy of time & effort when you're a 30 yr
> old buyer or seller.

The problem is that, were you to track the 45-54 on CBS-FM, it is off by about half since 1999 up to the change. They apparently missed the boat on adding early 70's bit by bit, and felt the brand was shopworn.

And they never developed a talent lineup that was "bigger than the brand." They were so wed to the idea of having old WABC jocks that they could not successfully move out of the 60's, I guess. In this case, the old seventy-seven jocks hurt them in the long run.

 

[lalumia]

Re: and Shannon's "True Oldies"

> > > Then, if these "Real Oldies" stations are supposed to be
>
> > > what saved music from the 50s and 60s and that audience
> > was
> > > being starved of their music, why have none of the "Real
>
> > > Oldies" stations worked? Really, all but 1 (Chicago)
> have
> >
> > > already died.
> >
> > The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in NJ
> is
> > doing extremely well and the majority of their playlist
> > still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got Jacked,
>
> > they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear them
> play
> > any '70s music.
> >
>
> I forgot about that station myself. It came in 3rd place in
> Morristown ratings. So there is one success story!
>
AND Shannon's "True Oldies" is cleaning up in Conn. and would do the same in NYC or LI,AM or FM, if given the chance.

 

[bierkenstock]

Having and spending are two different things

45 to 54 is still in "the money demo."

Whether they have the loot does not matter. What matters is whether they are a likely buyer for what an advertiser has to sell. Maybe they have so much loot because they are (1) Empty nesters, and there are things they don't need any more or don't need as much of any more, or (2) they have established their households and most durable goods they already have. Fact is, people at this stage of life are not in the acquisition mode.

Advertising is an investment. Advertisers target where they are going to get the biggest return. That means people most likely to buy, and people most likely to be heavy users of a product. Advertisers know in some detail who buys their product. They know who listens to given formats and radio stations. And they have computer programs to match them up. They have facts. People bemoaning the loss of their favorite format only have wishful thinking.

Oldies fans should use a bit of that "loot" and get satellite radio. And if oldies fans are unwilling to do that, then maybe the ad agencies are right.



> But you're talking retired persons (over 60) and I'm talking
> 45-54, which many Oldies stations have successfully evolved
> to. They have the loot, they're not so locked into their
> buying habits and they are huge in numbers. But again, 45+
> doesn't appear worthy of time & effort when you're a 30 yr
> old buyer or seller.
>