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Jack Off!

Re: Reality check.

> While I don't have insight into CBS-FM (only having been
> here a month)...back home in Boston, what you have described
> sort of plays out.
>
> WODS 103.3 has been Oldies since approximately 1988 and is
> owned by Infinity. Now there were rumors of it potentially
> going Jack-FM (though Infinity also owns a Hot AC that now
> does "Whatever Weekends" because Entercom beat them to the
> punch launching 93.7 Mike-FM on the former Boston
> Dance/Rhythmic Oldies Station).
>
> Oldies 103.3 is consistently the #4FM station in the overall
> 12+ ratings for Boston, so it is a strong, solid station
> (bested only by CHR-Rhythmic, AC, and CHR-Pop). It gradually
> took away it's 50s and most of the early 60s records, and
> made a segue into the 60s and 70s. They play a few 80s, but
> not much at all. The slogan went from "Boston's Oldies
> Station" to the "Greatest Hits of the 60s and 70s", and the
> ratings have remained as solid as ever. I don't know if
> Infinity has any future plans to tamper with it, but it
> proves as an example for your argument over smart evolution
> to keep up with the times.
>

The case in Boston is interesting. There is Mike FM, a Jack clone, already, but Infinity's Jacks are different. I'm not sure if Infinity would switch another station to Jack in Boston, but if they do, it may be WODS, since the billing may drop off since demos are getting older, but the problem is, Jack would possibly hurt Mix.
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Re: Older demo income

> It’s ironic, we have an aging population and boomers who’ve
> made more money and now control more wealth are now turning
> 50 – 60 years of age. But agencies and radio are still
> chasing after the 25-to-54 demos. The 25-to-54 people have
> the highest need to consume, buying furniture, cars, homes
> and feeding kids. And when their kids need money for
> college, cars and buying their first home they turn to their
> parents who are now 50-60 years of age.
>
> Maybe NY is different, but plenty of car dealers and
> furniture stores love buyers 35-54 and 54+, because they’ve
> got the bucks and can afford to buy higher priced products.
>

You bring up good points. Its understandable why advertisers focus on the 25-54 audience. They have a lot to buy! New furniture, food, clothing, etc. But the people about 55 have the bucks.
>
>
>
> But you're talking retired persons (over 60) and I'm talking
>
> > 45-54, which many Oldies stations have successfully
> evolved
> > to. They have the loot, they're not so locked into their
> > buying habits and they are huge in numbers. But again,
> 45+
> > doesn't appear worthy of time & effort when you're a 30 yr
>
> > old buyer or seller.
> >
> > >
> > > The fact is that retired persons, on the average, have
> > very
> > > little money. Over 25% have nothing other than Social
> > > Security, and another 30% only have a pension and Social
>
> > > security. The average 401-k of a 50 year old is less
> than
> > > $12 thousand dollars. There is a huge myth about wealthy
>
> > > retired folks. If one looks at mdeian rather than
> average
> > > income, it looks really depressing.
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Older demo income

> Wow, so you're saying that a 30 year old is making decisions
> for a company's product placement and marketing strategy to
> sell their products? Say it ain't so!

No, it is not so. the decisions on marketing are done through research, product desgin, more research, test mmarketing, more research, etc. It does not matter how old the brand manager or marketing director is... The model for this is P&G where products are developed to serve market needs or where a need is created for a product and then the product is shown to serve the need (common in brand extensions).

When companies are in marketing mode, they respond to customer needs, and part of this is determining who the customers are, what they want and measuring whether a product can be profitable in its niche.
>
> "How do we INCREASE sales of our product?"

By researching. Find out who will be the largest consumer. Find out if the product satisfies needs. Redesign if needed. Market to the heavy user.
>
> "Get a hot young buyer who throws great parties and shows us
> a good time, exclude a huge demographic, don't give a
> (BLEEP) if the buyer is operating and thinking in our best
> interest because he's our bud and he picks up the tab at
> dinners, golf outings, bars etc.

Ad buyers do not determine demos for ad support for a product, brand or service. The marketing department comes up with market models. Ad buyers follow instructions.
>
> Sound weird? it's real.

No, it is not.
 
Jack-Boston

WODS makes way too much money in Boston to flip. Their revenue share of the market is a much different situation than CBS-FM or WJMK.
>
> The case in Boston is interesting. There is Mike FM, a Jack
> clone, already, but Infinity's Jacks are different. I'm not
> sure if Infinity would switch another station to Jack in
> Boston, but if they do, it may be WODS, since the billing
> may drop off since demos are getting older, but the problem
> is, Jack would possibly hurt Mix.
>
 
Older demo income

David- I think in general you're correct but I also think a LOT of marketing decisions get made by somebody who gets a bug up their ass or some "creative" brainstorm when they look at each other and say "let's do it!".

Most of the major, big dollar thinking is the way you describe but you and I both know there are agency buyers and the like who have their preferences and dislikes and recommend buys accordingly (based on format, AE's, even clusters where they don't like the GM or GSM or the group owner)- this stuff does happen all the time.
>
> No, it is not so. the decisions on marketing are done
> through research, product desgin, more research, test
> mmarketing, more research, etc. It does not matter how old
> the brand manager or marketing director is... The model for
> this is P&G where products are developed to serve market
> needs or where a need is created for a product and then the
> product is shown to serve the need (common in brand
> extensions).
>
> When companies are in marketing mode, they respond to
> customer needs, and part of this is determining who the
> customers are, what they want and measuring whether a
> product can be profitable in its niche.
> >
> > "How do we INCREASE sales of our product?"
>
> By researching. Find out who will be the largest consumer.
> Find out if the product satisfies needs. Redesign if needed.
> Market to the heavy user.
> >
> > "Get a hot young buyer who throws great parties and shows
> us
> > a good time, exclude a huge demographic, don't give a
> > (BLEEP) if the buyer is operating and thinking in our best
>
> > interest because he's our bud and he picks up the tab at
> > dinners, golf outings, bars etc.
>
> Ad buyers do not determine demos for ad support for a
> product, brand or service. The marketing department comes up
> with market models. Ad buyers follow instructions.
> >
> > Sound weird? it's real.
>
> No, it is not.
>
 
Re: Jack-Boston

> WODS makes way too much money in Boston to flip. Their
> revenue share of the market is a much different situation
> than CBS-FM or WJMK.

Interesting, I wasn't sure about WODS' billing situation. I would assume Mix bills a lot. Perhaps Infinity will just not change a thing.

> > The case in Boston is interesting. There is Mike FM, a
> Jack
> > clone, already, but Infinity's Jacks are different. I'm
> not
> > sure if Infinity would switch another station to Jack in
> > Boston, but if they do, it may be WODS, since the billing
> > may drop off since demos are getting older, but the
> problem
> > is, Jack would possibly hurt Mix.
> >
>
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</P>
 
Re: Jack-Boston

> WODS makes way too much money in Boston to flip. Their
> revenue share of the market is a much different situation
> than CBS-FM or WJMK.

Actually had they not had a few up books in a row they too were slated for demolition and Jack reconstruction but they were able to turn things around to corproate satisfaction. In essence they dodged a bullet.

> >
> > The case in Boston is interesting. There is Mike FM, a
> Jack
> > clone, already, but Infinity's Jacks are different. I'm
> not
> > sure if Infinity would switch another station to Jack in
> > Boston, but if they do, it may be WODS, since the billing
> > may drop off since demos are getting older, but the
> problem
> > is, Jack would possibly hurt Mix.

The rumor is that Infinity would still consider a Jack station in Boston if they felt that Entercom (Mike FM) was not doing it correctly. This was the theory before the CBS Fm numbers came out and at the time Jack was still thought to be the new saving grace.
 
Jack-Boston

Sorry, that's just not true. They bill a boat-load and there is no truth that they nearly went Jack but didn't because they had a good spring book.
>
> Actually had they not had a few up books in a row they too
> were slated for demolition and Jack reconstruction but they
> were able to turn things around to corproate satisfaction.
> In essence they dodged a bullet.
 
AM Music

Not disrespecting their success there. Just pointing out that because it works there doesn't mean it would work anywhere else, especially NYC. Radio has a habit of taking something that works in X market and assuming it'll get the same results in market Y. More often than not, it isn't and the more of a niche format you use, the less chance the same template would work elsewhere.

>
> So? There are thousands and thousands and thousands of
> people in the market. I know that because I live in the
> area. WMTR is a success story and just because it isn't
> ranked at number 10 or something, doesn't mean it doesn't
> count. This area is very busy and apparently has quite a few
> listeners. You really should live in the area to understand.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in NJ
>
> > is
> > > doing extremely well and the majority of their playlist
> > > still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got
> Jacked,
> >
> > > they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear them
> > play
> > > any '70s music.
> > >
> >
>
 
Re: AM Music

> Not disrespecting their success there. Just pointing out
> that because it works there doesn't mean it would work
> anywhere else, especially NYC. Radio has a habit of taking
> something that works in X market and assuming it'll get the
> same results in market Y. More often than not, it isn't and
> the more of a niche format you use, the less chance the same
> template would work elsewhere.

Ok, I really didn't say that this format could work in other markets, but what you said was right. I thought you meant the WMTR success story doesn't mean anything, but it definetly does. You know how Jammin' Oldies is pretty much a dead radio format, but it does well in Cincinnati. Real Oldies (which is pretty much a failure) is doing well here.

>
> > So? There are thousands and thousands and thousands of
> > people in the market. I know that because I live in the
> > area. WMTR is a success story and just because it isn't
> > ranked at number 10 or something, doesn't mean it doesn't
> > count. This area is very busy and apparently has quite a
> few
> > listeners. You really should live in the area to
> understand.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast in
> NJ
> >
> > > is
> > > > doing extremely well and the majority of their
> playlist
> > > > still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got
> > Jacked,
> > >
> > > > they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear
> them
> > > play
> > > > any '70s music.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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Re: Jack-Oldies and AM Music

>
> Question: Are there any real successful AM music stations in
> moderate to major markets?
> >

There's WDIA in Memphis...it's not all music (they do three 2 hour talk shows each day) but it's mostly music. They're all Blues on Saturday and all Gospel on Sunday. They're always in the top 5 of the 12+ numbers.
 
Older demo income

In fact, the argument could be made 50+ have more DISPOSABLE income to spend for bigger ticket items.

>
> You bring up good points. Its understandable why advertisers
> focus on the 25-54 audience. They have a lot to buy! New
> furniture, food, clothing, etc. But the people about 55 have
> the bucks.
 
Re: and Shannon's "True Oldies"

> >
> AND Shannon's "True Oldies" is cleaning up in Conn. and
> would do the same in NYC or LI,AM or FM, if given the
> chance.
>

And THAT statement has NOTHING TO DO with the fact that YOU ARE a personal acquaintance of his RIGHT!?
 
Re: AM Music

> > Not disrespecting their success there. Just pointing out
> > that because it works there doesn't mean it would work
> > anywhere else, especially NYC. Radio has a habit of
> taking
> > something that works in X market and assuming it'll get
> the
> > same results in market Y. More often than not, it isn't
> and
> > the more of a niche format you use, the less chance the
> same
> > template would work elsewhere.
>
> Ok, I really didn't say that this format could work in other
> markets, but what you said was right. I thought you meant
> the WMTR success story doesn't mean anything, but it
> definetly does. You know how Jammin' Oldies is pretty much a
> dead radio format, but it does well in Cincinnati. Real
> Oldies (which is pretty much a failure) is doing well here.
>
Speaking of Cincinatti, Real Oldies seemed to do pretty well there, consistently in the 1.5-2.0 range 12+ (not bad for an AM). Apparently that still wasn't good enough. Some feel that Clear Channel switched it to Air America, which is getting half the share Real Oldies got, for political reasons (to balance its conservative talk stations) although I imagine the format is much cheaper to run (mostly syndicated) and probably has younger demos (?).

> > > So? There are thousands and thousands and thousands of
> > > people in the market. I know that because I live in the
> > > area. WMTR is a success story and just because it isn't
> > > ranked at number 10 or something, doesn't mean it
> doesn't
> > > count. This area is very busy and apparently has quite a
>
> > few
> > > listeners. You really should live in the area to
> > understand.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The "Classic Oldies" 1250 WMTR/1170 WWTR simulcast
> in
> > NJ
> > >
> > > > is
> > > > > doing extremely well and the majority of their
> > playlist
> > > > > still focuses on 1955-1963 hits. After CBS-FM got
> > > Jacked,
> > > >
> > > > > they added 1964-1969 music, but I have yet to hear
> > them
> > > > play
> > > > > any '70s music.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
 
Won't happen

Unfortunately, the folks who control ad dollars don't view 55+ as viable or exciting. More and more GMs are in their 30s and see Oldies (or any 50+ format)
as old and uninteresting. Ditto goes for radio sellers and ad agency people.


> True information, but are we going to just completely ignore
> the 55+ crowd? Act as they don't exist?
 
AM Music

Not bad for an AM but lousy for a music station hoping to sell enough ad time to be profitable. A 1.5 share, even 12+, is not good enough to be competitive.


> >
> Speaking of Cincinatti, Real Oldies seemed to do pretty well
> there, consistently in the 1.5-2.0 range 12+ (not bad for an
> AM). Apparently that still wasn't good enough. Some feel
> that Clear Channel switched it to Air America, which is
> getting half the share Real Oldies got, for political
> reasons (to balance its conservative talk stations) although
> I imagine the format is much cheaper to run (mostly
> syndicated) and probably has younger demos (?).
 
probably

Correct. But think we're all aware enough to know Infinity knew this going in and were willing to take the short-term hit for the (potential) long-term benefit.
>
> But, it will take a long time to make up the startup losses
> in redvenues and get back to the previous billing levels.
> The initial losses in billing will be in the millions.
>
 
Jack on AOL

Please forgive me if this has already been posted. I just found the thread and had not the time to read the whole thing.

I just tuned into Jack on AOL Radio and was disapointed to find that they are picking up a highly processed air feed. Can't they get the kind of raw feed that internet streamers have become accustomed to?<P ID="signature">______________
Proud 2 B a pioneering satellite radio subs¢riber
Ai4i is always on the trailing edge of technology
______________</P><P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by ai4i on 09/08/05 11:03 PM.</FONT></P>
 
Jack-Boston

Not true. Trust me, that statement, while a common assertion and assumption, is 100% untrue.

> Actually had they not had a few up books in a row they too
> were slated for demolition and Jack reconstruction but they
> were able to turn things around to corproate satisfaction.
> In essence they dodged a bullet.
 
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