'Jack' radio too white for New York?

[mwebster]

From the LA Times:
<blockquote>
* Though the format is a hit in L.A., ratings are down with New Yorkers...

...Jack isn't failing everywhere. In Los Angeles, one of the most dynamic and competitive markets in the country, the recently Jacked station KCBS/93.1 FM has not only seen its ratings rise, it's become No. 1 among the 25- to 54-year-old demographic, highly coveted by advertisers.

So why hasn't Jack taken off with New Yorkers? Here's one theory: In a city filled with racial diversity and music that crosses racial divides, Jack sounds pretty darn white.</blockquote>
Full Article (Free Registration May Be Required)
http://www.calendarlive.com/tv/cl-et-jack24oct24,0,7494737.story?coll=cl-tvent

 

[6tothebronx]

That may be true, and 101.1's signal could also add to that. I know throughout much of suburban New Jersey WCBS does not have a very clean signal due to 101.1 from Philly. I used to live just 20 miles south of NYC and rarely listened to WCBS because there was so much interference from 101.1 in Philly. This was especially true when listening in the car.



> From the LA Times:
>
> * Though the format is a hit in L.A., ratings are down with
> New Yorkers...
>
> ...Jack isn't failing everywhere. In Los Angeles, one of the
> most dynamic and competitive markets in the country, the
> recently Jacked station KCBS/93.1 FM has not only seen its
> ratings rise, it's become No. 1 among the 25- to 54-year-old
> demographic, highly coveted by advertisers.
>
> So why hasn't Jack taken off with New Yorkers? Here's one
> theory: In a city filled with racial diversity and music
> that crosses racial divides, Jack sounds pretty darn white.
> Full Article (Free Registration May Be Required)
http://www.calenda> rlive.com/tv/cl-et-jack24oct24,0,7494737.story?coll=cl-tvent
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Dumb article by the Times

> From the LA Times:
>
> * Though the format is a hit in L.A., ratings are down with
> New Yorkers...
>
> ...Jack isn't failing everywhere. In Los Angeles, one of the
> most dynamic and competitive markets in the country, the
> recently Jacked station KCBS/93.1 FM has not only seen its
> ratings rise, it's become No. 1 among the 25- to 54-year-old
> demographic, highly coveted by advertisers.
>
> So why hasn't Jack taken off with New Yorkers? Here's one
> theory: In a city filled with racial diversity and music
> that crosses racial divides, Jack sounds pretty darn white.

Dumb article. In 80 yearz, newspapers have still not decided to treat radio fairly... it is all about the perception that radio is a ocmpetitor.

First, each Jack is different, locally researched.

Second, LA is MORE ethnic than NY. 11% Asian, 10% Black and nearly 45% Hispanic, with another 10% being immigrants from Arab nations, especially Iran, Russia, Armenia, etc. The LA market is about 75% ethnic, in fact. NYC comes nowhere close.

In any case, the sound of each Jack is tailored to the local market, based on broadest appeal possible.

 

[tibbs]

Re: Dumb article by the Times

I think the article is as close to accurate as I have
seen in a newspaper in a long time. Maybe the depth is
lacking, but the points have total merit and truth.
Most newspapers can't get the call letters or frequency
right, much less anything else.

NYC dances to a totally different beat than LA or any
other city. Jack is a sort of middle America white-based
format. I've pointed that out numerous times in posts
below and on Variety Hits. The music simply bores people
in NY who are use to a higher level of energy and edge.

When black music is generally played, much it is the
old "fraternity dance songs" from The Gap Band to The
Pointer Sisters, etc. Pep it up and mix it up.

I've been saying those two points are where WCBS is failing. They have
to cater to the dynamics of NYC specifically, which means
people get bored with Huey Lewis and Jackson Browne. No
slight against either specifically, the NYC Jack just needs
a lot more flash and the attitude can really be played with.

That does mean more diversity, but not necessarily rap, etc.
It need's specifically more of a city vibe.

Plus, you have to look at the other radio formats in NYC
compared to LA and see how much is being marketed to the
same demographic(s) that offer more interest in the ears
of the listeners and take that interest away.

It should be SIMPLE to rectify the problem, but the longer
Jack waits, the worse it will be. And Jack (Howard Cogan)
needs to tell listeners in his own "special" way that he's
gotten "To Sexy for His Shirt."

Infinity can pull this off, if they just would be open to
trying it. What's the harm? You can always go back to the
current playlist and have bad ratings. The beauty (if you
will allow) of Jack is the variation and re-direction of
the music is sort of expected by listeners.

What do you think Cadillac Jack??? At liberty to offer
up comments?


>
> Second, LA is MORE ethnic than NY. 11% Asian, 10% Black and
> nearly 45% Hispanic, with another 10% being immigrants from
> Arab nations, especially Iran, Russia, Armenia, etc. The LA
> market is about 75% ethnic, in fact. NYC comes nowhere
> close.

Good point, that I was researching last week. I think it's not
as much about the ethnic diversity of NY compared to LA as the
pure fact that to live "in the city" or right outside, most New
Yorkers have a flair for life, are bombarded by the energy level
of the sights and sounds, the tempo and dynamic of the city that
is constant. So to underwhelm them musically is a better chance
if the station has a vanilla, predictable sound. And I think NY
will embrace just the voice of Jack instead of actual jocks, but
that would (at some point, if done right) be a nice addition.

What would the listeners that would listen to Jack if it were up to
them picking the playlist play???

 

[Radio6]

Re: Dumb article by the Times

I think both of these points are true While the music does need some serious tweaking, so does the imaging. I have listened to the LA and Dallas Jacks, and both are more 'edgy' versions, not to mention funnier and more topical. In NY, Infinity seems to have started off with a couple funny things (making fun of the WCBS-FM dude) but then backed off anything else. Yawn. No reason to listen.

> I think the article is as close to accurate as I have
> seen in a newspaper in a long time. Maybe the depth is
> lacking, but the points have total merit and truth.
> Most newspapers can't get the call letters or frequency
> right, much less anything else.
>
> NYC dances to a totally different beat than LA or any
> other city. Jack is a sort of middle America white-based
> format. I've pointed that out numerous times in posts
> below and on Variety Hits. The music simply bores people
> in NY who are use to a higher level of energy and edge.
>
> When black music is generally played, much it is the
> old "fraternity dance songs" from The Gap Band to The
> Pointer Sisters, etc. Pep it up and mix it up.
>
> I've been saying those two points are where WCBS is failing.
> They have
> to cater to the dynamics of NYC specifically, which means
> people get bored with Huey Lewis and Jackson Browne. No
> slight against either specifically, the NYC Jack just needs
> a lot more flash and the attitude can really be played with.
>
>
> That does mean more diversity, but not necessarily rap, etc.
>
> It need's specifically more of a city vibe.
>
> Plus, you have to look at the other radio formats in NYC
> compared to LA and see how much is being marketed to the
> same demographic(s) that offer more interest in the ears
> of the listeners and take that interest away.
>
> It should be SIMPLE to rectify the problem, but the longer
> Jack waits, the worse it will be. And Jack (Howard Cogan)
> needs to tell listeners in his own "special" way that he's
> gotten "To Sexy for His Shirt."
>
> Infinity can pull this off, if they just would be open to
> trying it. What's the harm? You can always go back to the
> current playlist and have bad ratings. The beauty (if you
> will allow) of Jack is the variation and re-direction of
> the music is sort of expected by listeners.
>
> What do you think Cadillac Jack??? At liberty to offer
> up comments?
>
>
> >
> > Second, LA is MORE ethnic than NY. 11% Asian, 10% Black
> and
> > nearly 45% Hispanic, with another 10% being immigrants
> from
> > Arab nations, especially Iran, Russia, Armenia, etc. The
> LA
> > market is about 75% ethnic, in fact. NYC comes nowhere
> > close.
>
> Good point, that I was researching last week. I think it's
> not
> as much about the ethnic diversity of NY compared to LA as
> the
> pure fact that to live "in the city" or right outside, most
> New
> Yorkers have a flair for life, are bombarded by the energy
> level
> of the sights and sounds, the tempo and dynamic of the city
> that
> is constant. So to underwhelm them musically is a better
> chance
> if the station has a vanilla, predictable sound. And I think
> NY
> will embrace just the voice of Jack instead of actual jocks,
> but
> that would (at some point, if done right) be a nice
> addition.
>
> What would the listeners that would listen to Jack if it
> were up to
> them picking the playlist play???
>

 

[kevinsealy]

Re: Dumb article by the Times

David Eduardo:


>>> In any case, the sound of each Jack is tailored to the local
market, based on broadest appeal possible.<<<

I disagree with that. If you check out stoneage.yes.com and look at WCBS-FM's playlist without listening to JACK-FM, it reflects a White suburban Rock CHR station.



Thanks,
<P ID="signature">______________
Kevin L. Sealy</P>

 

[JustinCase]

Re: Dumb article by the Times

Honestly, actual racial makeups aside, NYC is big and overwhelming, LA is not, its far more suburban feeling out in Hollywood.

I just feel NY seems far more diverse than LA, and may just seem that because I think our diversity happens in less space. We're stacked up, one block is one thing, like Chinatown, and then next is different, say Little Italy. We're forced together by our surroundings, LA is all spread out, its not an urban jungle.

That's a big difference and makes attitudes and lifestyles completely different!<P ID="signature">______________
Can I sleep now?</P>

 

[OldiesCat]

Dumb article

Oh, no, David- didn't you know Jack is a cookie-cutter format programmed by some guy in a dark closet in Dallas? *LOL*

Seriously, you're totally right about newspapers' view of radio (not to mention your other points).

D-U-M-B.


> Dumb article. In 80 yearz, newspapers have still not decided
> to treat radio fairly... it is all about the perception that
> radio is a ocmpetitor.
>
> First, each Jack is different, locally researched.
>
> Second, LA is MORE ethnic than NY. 11% Asian, 10% Black and
> nearly 45% Hispanic, with another 10% being immigrants from
> Arab nations, especially Iran, Russia, Armenia, etc. The LA
> market is about 75% ethnic, in fact. NYC comes nowhere
> close.
>
> In any case, the sound of each Jack is tailored to the local
> market, based on broadest appeal possible.
>

 

[Jeffrey]

JACK caters to suburanites!

While I don't negate immigrant/ethnic population statistics, New York is a incredible mix of nationalities all living on top of eachother.
The only reason LA has more hispanics is it's proximity to Mexico. While LA has an incredible ethnic population, Mexicans are different from other hispanics in their musical tastes, ie. Mexican music vs. Latin music, as well as LA being a more whitebred suburban type community notwithstanding it's ethnic diversity.

The JACK format is for a whitebred 80's rock crowd. Anything but a New York sound. Honestly when flipping through the dial you can immediately tell this station is NOT for New York. Anyone who knows this city well can hear it immediately.
JACK in New York will never sell unless it's tweaked drastically!

 

[davideduardo]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

> The only reason LA has more hispanics is it's proximity to
> Mexico. While LA has an incredible ethnic population,
> Mexicans are different from other hispanics in their musical
> tastes, ie. Mexican music

Every group of Hispanics, whether they be Mexican, Domincan, Mexican, Central American, etc., has different musical divisions. A percentage of Mexicans like "real" Mexican music (ranchera, norteña, etc), while a percentage of Puerto Ricans like 'Real" Puerto Rican music (salsa) and so on... these genres are the "country music of each nation or region. All like ballads (AC) or reggaetón (CHR) pretty much alike.

So, saying that there is only one difference is ingenuous. The #1 Spanish station in LA is reggaeton, tied with the AC station, not the regional Mexican stations. In NY, 2/3 of the music listeners are not salsa merengue listeners... they are AC and reggaeton listener.

> vs. Latin music,

There is no such thing as "Latin Music" as there are dozens of different genres, from rock to oldies.

> as well as LA
> being a more whitebred suburban type community
> notwithstanding it's ethnic diversity.

LA's suburbs, like Orange County and the San Fernando valley, are half ethnic.

 

[Jeffrey]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

I'm not talking about who is number 1 and who is not but because of LA's Mexican population, a more countified Latino, a more countrified Latino population is prevelant in LA more so than in NY.
This holds true when discussing the overall population in southern California.
It is the same arguement as to why LA supports a country radio station and New York does not. The population is of a different breed, ethnic or not.
LA does not have a heritage of urban/dance and rhythmic music the same way it has in New York.
Getting back to the point, if you know anything about New York, it's musical heritage and it's people you'll understand why JACK, NYC doesn't and won't work.
This is not LA.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

> I'm not talking about who is number 1 and who is not but
> because of LA's Mexican population, a more countified
> Latino, a more countrified Latino population is prevelant in
> LA more so than in NY.

Nope. Country in Mexico and Central America is ranchera, norteña and banda. In Puerto Rico, it is salsa. In the Dominican Republic, it is merengue. In Colombia, it is cumbia and vallenato. The percentages of listeners to formats based on the country music of each naiton or region is the same on eiather coast.

> This holds true when discussing the overall population in
> southern California.

The Puerto Ricans and Dominicans and Colombians and Ecuadorians in NY are mostly from rural areas and small towns where there is little employment. It is not as much from big cities. Same with Mexicans and Central Americans in LA.

> It is the same arguement as to why LA supports a country
> radio station and New York does not. The population is of a
> different breed, ethnic or not.

Nope. Hispanics in NY (where nearly half the users of Spanish radio are Dominican) are very rural in origin.

> LA does not have a heritage of urban/dance and rhythmic
> music the same way it has in New York.

Because dance and urban have more incommon with music of the Caribbean Basin than Mexican country music does. till, Salsa, Merengue, Cumbia or Rnchera is all country music of different countries.

The biggest problem in Puerto Rico when the first all salsa station started was the image that salsa was low class and too unsophisticated for advertisers to want to be associated with.

> Getting back to the point, if you know anything about New
> York, it's musical heritage and it's people you'll
> understand why JACK, NYC doesn't and won't work.
> This is not LA.

NY is not LA mostly because the ocmpetitive array is different. However, the concept is valid, and will eventually be fine tuned to work, just as 103.7 is now working well.

 

[autopaint-1]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

Jeffrey, as much as I know you are correct there are those on this board and others who will never concede that NY radio is different than other markets. LA radio has had a strong Spanish language presence with stations showing up in the top 10 for many more years than NYC. Having said that LA is not in any way like NYC.
LA is a city of sprawl, NYers live on top of and next to each other. That is one of the reasons given as to why NY has never had the kind of rioting that followed the Rodney King verdict. Sure there have been issues, as we had in Brooklyn when the traffic accident caused a car driven by Hassidic man hit and killed a child of Caribbean parents. That problem was caused by two insular communities who had little interaction with each other and opportunists taking advantage of a terrible accident.
That is atypical of NYC. People of different ethnicities and races live next to and interact with each other on a daily basis. In LA people drive from work to home and there is little interaction because neighborhoods aren’t as integrated as they are in NYC. In NY the subway is such an important means of transportation where people of all ethnicities interact with each other. That is what I’ve always heard anyway.
Jack might appeal to suburbanites in other cities but if you know the NY market you realize that stations like Hot 97 get the numbers not only because of the black population but because they have strong appeal to white suburban teenagers and stations like WXRK and it's rock format do not appeal to NYers of any ethnicity.

 

[autopaint-1]

> That may be true, and 101.1's signal could also add to that.
> I know throughout much of suburban New Jersey WCBS does not
> have a very clean signal due to 101.1 from Philly. I used
> to live just 20 miles south of NYC and rarely listened to
> WCBS because there was so much interference from 101.1 in
> Philly. This was especially true when listening in the car.

Yes NY & Philly are close spaced on 101.1. Having said that, I don't know where in Jersey you live but I live 25 miles north of the city and CBS FM has a excellent signal and my mother in law used to live in Jameburg NJ (Exit 8A on the turnpike) which is about 1 hour south of the city and also south of New Brunswick (which is not in the NY market). I was able to listen to WCBS FM down there with a little interference from 101.1 in Philly. Usually the dividing line is New Brunswick to the south. Out west hills will make the difference. Here's a clue for those south of the city, once you see WAWA's you are no longer in the NY market.

 

[autopaint-1]

Re: Dumb article by the Times

New York
Pop. 8,009.278
White 2,801.267 34%
Black 1,962,154 24.50
Asian 780,229 9.74
Hispanic 2,160,554 26.98
Other 304,074 3.80

Los Angeles
3694820 Population
41% White
38% Hispanic
11 % other
11% Black

I’d guess there are more different people from Asian countries in LA than NY but NY is a far larger city (This is city and not market) than Los Angeles and of course home to the United Nations.

 

[Jeffrey]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

> Nope. Country in Mexico and Central America is ranchera,
> norteña and banda. In Puerto Rico, it is salsa. In the
> Dominican Republic, it is merengue. In Colombia, it is
> cumbia and vallenato. The percentages of listeners to
> formats based on the country music of each naiton or region
> is the same on eiather coast.

FAIR ENOUGH.

>

> The Puerto Ricans and Dominicans and Colombians and
> Ecuadorians in NY are mostly from rural areas and small
> towns where there is little employment. It is not as much
> from big cities. Same with Mexicans and Central Americans in
> LA.

I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT A LATIN POPULATION IN THIS CASE BUT AN OVERALL GENERALIZATION OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WHERE A MORE SUBURBAN/COUNTRYFIED POPULATION IS PREVELANT AND ATTRACTED TO THE MORE SPACIOUS SUBURBAN LIFE STYLE THAT LA OFFERS AS APPOSED TO NEW YORK.

> Nope. Hispanics in NY (where nearly half the users of
> Spanish radio are Dominican) are very rural in origin.

I WASN'T DISCUSSING HISPANICS AT ALL IN THIS CASE EITHER.

> Because dance and urban have more incommon with music of the
> Caribbean Basin than Mexican country music does. till,
> Salsa, Merengue, Cumbia or Rnchera is all country music of
> different countries.


WHAT???
>
> The biggest problem in Puerto Rico when the first all salsa
> station started was the image that salsa was low class and
> too unsophisticated for advertisers to want to be associated
> with.

GREAT, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING I SAID OR JACK FM?


> NY is not LA mostly because the ocmpetitive array is
> different. However, the concept is valid, and will
> eventually be fine tuned to work, just as 103.7 is now
> working well.

AGREED. AS I HAD POSTED EARLIER, JACK IS FAILING AND WILL CONTINUE TO FAIL UNTIL IT IS TWEAKED TO SOUND LIKE NEW YORK AND NOT SOME MIDWEST SMALL MARKET STATION.

 

[Jeffrey]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

You are absolutely 100% correct. What continues to boggle my mind too is how people simply come to the New York board and expect to understand what should and shouldn't work in this market without having lived here or understand the New York breed.
I have lived all over the country and can assure you that in most ways New York is NOT part of this country.
It is a completely different market. That is exactly why generic stations programmed for the rest of the US. traditionally fail miserably here.
Infinity made a big mistake with JACK in New York and without serious tweaking it will continue with it's numbers in the 1's.

 

[Frish]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

> > Nope. Country in Mexico and Central America is ranchera,
> > norteña and banda. In Puerto Rico, it is salsa. In the
> > Dominican Republic, it is merengue. In Colombia, it is
> > cumbia and vallenato. The percentages of listeners to
> > formats based on the country music of each naiton or
> region
> > is the same on eiather coast.
>
> FAIR ENOUGH.
>
> >
>
> > The Puerto Ricans and Dominicans and Colombians and
> > Ecuadorians in NY are mostly from rural areas and small
> > towns where there is little employment. It is not as much
> > from big cities. Same with Mexicans and Central Americans
> in
> > LA.
>
> I WASN'T TALKING ABOUT A LATIN POPULATION IN THIS CASE BUT
> AN OVERALL GENERALIZATION OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA WHERE A
> MORE SUBURBAN/COUNTRYFIED POPULATION IS PREVELANT AND
> ATTRACTED TO THE MORE SPACIOUS SUBURBAN LIFE STYLE THAT LA
> OFFERS AS APPOSED TO NEW YORK.
>
> > Nope. Hispanics in NY (where nearly half the users of
> > Spanish radio are Dominican) are very rural in origin.
>
> I WASN'T DISCUSSING HISPANICS AT ALL IN THIS CASE EITHER.
>
> > Because dance and urban have more incommon with music of
> the
> > Caribbean Basin than Mexican country music does. till,
> > Salsa, Merengue, Cumbia or Rnchera is all country music of
>
> > different countries.
>
>
> WHAT???
> >
> > The biggest problem in Puerto Rico when the first all
> salsa
> > station started was the image that salsa was low class and
>
> > too unsophisticated for advertisers to want to be
> associated
> > with.
>
> GREAT, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING I SAID OR
> JACK FM?
>
>
> > NY is not LA mostly because the ocmpetitive array is
> > different. However, the concept is valid, and will
> > eventually be fine tuned to work, just as 103.7 is now
> > working well.
>
> AGREED. AS I HAD POSTED EARLIER, JACK IS FAILING AND WILL
> CONTINUE TO FAIL UNTIL IT IS TWEAKED TO SOUND LIKE NEW YORK
> AND NOT SOME MIDWEST SMALL MARKET STATION.
>
what station besides maybe Hot 97 and Power 105 DOESNT cater to suburbanites? everybody knows that f youre hoping that people in Manhattan get diaries for the NYC metro book you're hitching your cart to the wrong horse.

 

[autopaint-1]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

> what station besides maybe Hot 97 and Power 105 DOESNT cater
> to suburbanites? everybody knows that f youre hoping that
> people in Manhattan get diaries for the NYC metro book
> you're hitching your cart to the wrong horse.

The two stations mentioned Hot 97 and Power 105 have huge suburban listenerships.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: JACK caters to suburanites!

> You are absolutely 100% correct. What continues to boggle my
> mind too is how people simply come to the New York board and
> expect to understand what should and shouldn't work in this
> market without having lived here or understand the New York
> breed.

Some of us "outsiders" have both lived and programmed in NY.

> I have lived all over the country and can assure you that in
> most ways New York is NOT part of this country.

I hear that same statement in many "different" markets I work in. It always turns out that, if you talk to the listeners, they will tell you what to do. And the differences are more subtle than most immagine.

> It is a completely different market. That is exactly why
> generic stations programmed for the rest of the US.
> traditionally fail miserably here.

Bad stations are bad because of poor execution. You can research and interpret badly, and fail. You can take a valid concept, whether it is in use in 100 other markets, and apply it in NY and it will work.

> Infinity made a big mistake with JACK in New York and
> without serious tweaking it will continue with it's numbers
> in the 1's.

Sounds just like the comments on 102.7 a year or so ago. Guess what? It is working... it just took time.