June 12 - what will happen

[vchimpanzee]

Re: June 12 - what will happen (times of analog sign-off on Philly TV)

Down from 8 channels (not counting the ones that weren't on analog such as weather channels) to 6 on one TV. Down to 3 on another. The stories about the two channels I lost are about to go up. I don't know what the problem is with the other channels on the new tV other than the fact the antenna is 22 dB compared to 45.

 

[vchimpanzee]

We aint got know tee vee here in Alabamer, just sum man named NICK SABEN. Rollllll Tide.

Whut you meen I cain't use Anna Log? Anna done cut that there tree down her own self to use in the fahrplace cause it gits cold here at nat.

Billy Bob! Go kick the transmitter and feed the hamster! I cain't see the NBA playoffs again. ... Yeah, that done it. Wait, the coat hanger done fell off. ... I told you, Mister FCC, Anna is gonna burn the log herself when it gets cold. ... License? BLUE! HERE BOY! ... Good dog. See, Mister FCC, there's ma license.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Re: June 12 - what will happen (times of analog sign-off on Philly TV)

Down from 8 channels (not counting the ones that weren't on analog such as weather channels) to 6 on one TV. Down to 3 on another. The stories about the two channels I lost are about to go up. I don't know what the problem is with the other channels on the new tV other than the fact the antenna is 22 dB compared to 45.

I have 8 channels on both TVs now (I thought I reported this but don't remember where). At least I assume I do. One had to be rescanned and I haven't actually checked.

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=147443.0

 

[FreddyE1977]

I can get up to a high of 16, but if the cat bumps my rabbit ears most of them are gone again.

 

[dave73]

Since the June 12th shutoff date, I still get everything, but now, I get a lot of pixelation. I didn't get that before analog was shutoff. I wonder if the high power of analog helped out some digital stations by not having pixelation. I don't know about that one. For the Chicago market, here's the list that was prior to June 12th:

WBBM-DT 3*
WYIN 17
WGN-DT 19
WYCC 21 (they were the only one to shutoff analog before June 12th, on April 16th at 6am)
WCIU 27
WMAQ-DT 29
WFLD 31
WJYS 36
WWME-LD 39
WCPX 43
WSNS 45
WMEU-LD 46**
WPWR-DT 51
WLS-DT 52*
WGBO 53*
WXFT 59*

*= changed channels after June 12th.
**= Application to change from 46 to 32 (WFLD's old channel). We'll have to wait & see what happens with this one.

After June 12th, only 4 stations changed channels, and they are:
WLS-DT went from 52 back to 7, since they were out of core for digital.
WBBM-DT went from 3 to 12, and more people receive their station on 12 than 3, though I was one that did get it on 3.
WBBM-DT also switched from the John Hancock to the Sears Tower for their transmission, since they acquired WTTW's old antenna when WTTW was on 11.

WGBO went from 53 to 38 (acquiring WCPX's old channel, but not antenna, and they & WYCC are the only 2 still on the John Hancock)

WXFT went from 59 to 50 (acquiring WPWR's old channel, but not antenna).

I have the Magnavox digital box, along with a Philips outdoor antenna that's made for rural areas, and optimized for Low/High VHF & UHF, with estimated range of up to 100 miles for VHF, and up to 70 miles for UHF.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I can get up to a high of 16, but if the cat bumps my rabbit ears most of them are gone again.

Look at my link in the post above yours.

I lost ALL of them.

And I'm not a cat.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Referring to the topic with the link in my above post, I'm now up to 10 digital channels, not counting subchannels.

Now whether they'll still be there ... ???

 

[Jul]

Some people are not getting the over the air signal of WPVI 6ABC. Can anyone explain what is causing the problems and what can they do to correct it?

 

[pabsungenis]

Some people are not getting the over the air signal of WPVI 6ABC. Can anyone explain what is causing the problems and what can they do to correct it?

As we keep telling you over on the Philadelphia Board:

(a) It's caused by the station being on Low VHF. Low VHF signals are too subject to noise to work well with digital tv.
(b) Absolutely nothing - there's no frequency available for them to move to, and their power is already higher than the Canadian treaty allows, so it will probably end up being ratcheted back.
(c) Let it go.

 

[JeeperOne]

(b) Absolutely nothing - there's no frequency available for them to move to, and their power is already higher than the Canadian treaty allows, so it will probably end up being ratcheted back.

Err I assume you meant this figuratively as Canadian law wouldn't apply because Philadelphia isn't in Canada nor is it anywhere near the U.S./Canadian border.

But yes, other than that Julius, STOP ASKING THE SAME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE SAME THING OVER & OVER AGAIN. You have a habit of doing this (Both here & elsewhere).

Cheers

 

[Jul]

so it will probably end up being ratcheted back.

What do you mean by that?

 

[pabsungenis]

so it will probably end up being ratcheted back.

What do you mean by that?

WPVI only has temporary, emergency authorization for their power increase. There are power restrictions on stations in Zone I. Their power will likely be going back down, although not necessarily as low as it was before.

 

[imhomerjay]

so it will probably end up being ratcheted back.

What do you mean by that?

What part of his perfectly explanatory post did you choose not to understand this time, Julius?

 

[Jul]

(c) Let it go.

There are a lot of over the air viewers that can't get the station at all and I am really concerned about it. I have every right to be. I will let it go once 6ABC somehow get this problem fixed because they can't have permanent signal problems like this. Eventually, the station will lose a lot of viewers. I know the station said "there has not been a mass viewership loss." so far but I have a bad feeling that its going to grow if this problem persists for a long time.

 

[pabsungenis]

(c) Let it go.

There are a lot of over the air viewers that can't get the station at all and I am really concerned about it. I have every right to be. I will let it go once 6ABC somehow get this problem fixed because they can't have permanent signal problems like this. Eventually, the station will lose a lot of viewers. I know the station said "there has not been a mass viewership loss." so far but I have a bad feeling that its going to grow if this problem persists for a long time.

For the last time, Julius (I pray)...

Yes, they can have permanent signal problems like this. They are inherent using ATSC digital transmission on low VHF frequencies. The problem was well known early in the transition process, and Disney/WPVI made the choice to go back to Channel 6 knowing of that fact, instead of cutting deals that might have been cut during the transition to get a better channel number.

The maximum power allowed for Channel 6 in the Northeast is limited to 10kW. This is set by treaty with Canada, which controls the power of all stations within 400km of the US/Canada border, which includes the Philadelphia market. This is called "Zone I" if you're curious. The FCC granted WPVI temporary authority to broadcast at triple that, but unless a new working arrangement is worked out between the FCC and the CRTC (and even that might require a new treaty, which is not an easy thing to accomplish) even that might not be permanent.

The channel that WPVI-DT broadcast on literally no longer exists. It was deallocated on June 12th, along with every other channel over 51. They can't go back to it.

The only possible other frequencies they could move to without moving their antenna either to central Delaware or the Jersey Shore, thus making their signal problems even worse for most of the market, are channels 2, 3, 4, and 5. All of them are just as bad or worse for digital TV, and Press Communications already has dibs on 2 and 3 anyhow.

There is nothing they can do.
There is nothing you can do.
There is nothing any of us can do.

Stress kills. Let it flow off your back and lower your blood pressure. And please stop annoying everyone else by flogging this dead horse, it's smelling up the place.

 

[Jul]

For the last time, Julius (I pray)...

Yes, they can have permanent signal problems like this. They are inherent using ATSC digital transmission on low VHF frequencies. The problem was well known early in the transition process, and Disney/WPVI made the choice to go back to Channel 6 knowing of that fact, instead of cutting deals that might have been cut during the transition to get a better channel number.

The maximum power allowed for Channel 6 in the Northeast is limited to 10kW. This is set by treaty with Canada, which controls the power of all stations within 400km of the US/Canada border, which includes the Philadelphia market. This is called "Zone I" if you're curious. The FCC granted WPVI temporary authority to broadcast at triple that, but unless a new working arrangement is worked out between the FCC and the CRTC (and even that might require a new treaty, which is not an easy thing to accomplish) even that might not be permanent.

The channel that WPVI-DT broadcast on literally no longer exists. It was deallocated on June 12th, along with every other channel over 51. They can't go back to it.

The only possible other frequencies they could move to without moving their antenna either to central Delaware or the Jersey Shore, thus making their signal problems even worse for most of the market, are channels 2, 3, 4, and 5. All of them are just as bad or worse for digital TV, and Press Communications already has dibs on 2 and 3 anyhow.

There is nothing they can do.
There is nothing you can do.
There is nothing any of us can do.

Stress kills. Let it flow off your back and lower your blood pressure. And please stop annoying everyone else by flogging this dead horse, it's smelling up the place.

I will. I didn't mean to annoy anyone.

 

[kenrayc]

(c) Let it go.

There are a lot of over the air viewers that can't get the station at all and I am really concerned about it. I have every right to be. I will let it go once 6ABC somehow get this problem fixed because they can't have permanent signal problems like this. Eventually, the station will lose a lot of viewers. I know the station said "there has not been a mass viewership loss." so far but I have a bad feeling that its going to grow if this problem persists for a long time.

For the last time, Julius (I pray)...

Yes, they can have permanent signal problems like this. They are inherent using ATSC digital transmission on low VHF frequencies. The problem was well known early in the transition process, and Disney/WPVI made the choice to go back to Channel 6 knowing of that fact, instead of cutting deals that might have been cut during the transition to get a better channel number.

The maximum power allowed for Channel 6 in the Northeast is limited to 10kW. This is set by treaty with Canada, which controls the power of all stations within 400km of the US/Canada border, which includes the Philadelphia market. This is called "Zone I" if you're curious. The FCC granted WPVI temporary authority to broadcast at triple that, but unless a new working arrangement is worked out between the FCC and the CRTC (and even that might require a new treaty, which is not an easy thing to accomplish) even that might not be permanent.

The channel that WPVI-DT broadcast on literally no longer exists. It was deallocated on June 12th, along with every other channel over 51. They can't go back to it.

The only possible other frequencies they could move to without moving their antenna either to central Delaware or the Jersey Shore, thus making their signal problems even worse for most of the market, are channels 2, 3, 4, and 5. All of them are just as bad or worse for digital TV, and Press Communications already has dibs on 2 and 3 anyhow.

There is nothing they can do.
There is nothing you can do.
There is nothing any of us can do.

Stress kills. Let it flow off your back and lower your blood pressure. And please stop annoying everyone else by flogging this dead horse, it's smelling up the place.

IF WPVI is having problems and they realize it they can't move to any channel 7-51,are they all used up in Philedelphia, digital stations can operate on adjacent channels like in Sacramento Ca KXTV 10 and KVIE 9 operate from the same transmitter. If there's a low power analog station taking one of those channels they could make some kind of deal to do a flip flop. just had to make an opinion on this situation.

 

[pabsungenis]

Things are packed really tightly up here in the Northeast. Philadelphia is short spaced to New York, Allentown, Harrisburg, Baltimore, Washington DC, and Atlantic City. It's a miracle that we didn't end up with more stations out of band than we did. As it is, two unbuilt allocations (channel 59 in Vineland and channel 36 in Atlantic City) were completely deleted to make room for everything.

There's no room, except on low VHF, for any new or moved station in New York or Philadelphia. Unless it's a little rimshotter with minimal market coverage.

Have they already auctioned off the space that used to be channels 52-54? I know 55 is gone, but could the FCC give us at least three channels back to get some of these poor orphaned low VHF'ers some breathing room and then delete 2-6 instead?

 

[w9wi]

Things are packed really tightly up here in the Northeast. Philadelphia is short spaced to New York, Allentown, Harrisburg, Baltimore, Washington DC, and Atlantic City. It's a miracle that we didn't end up with more stations out of band than we did. As it is, two unbuilt allocations (channel 59 in Vineland and channel 36 in Atlantic City) were completely deleted to make room for everything.

There's no room, except on low VHF, for any new or moved station in New York or Philadelphia. Unless it's a little rimshotter with minimal market coverage.

Have they already auctioned off the space that used to be channels 52-54? I know 55 is gone, but could the FCC give us at least three channels back to get some of these poor orphaned low VHF'ers some breathing room and then delete 2-6 instead?

("Pab" is right: even with adjacent channels usable there is no alternative UHF channel for WPVI)

My gut feeling is that WPVI will get to keep their 30kw facility.

I note their application was amended. It initially specified 30kw to a non-directional antenna -- and was amended to specify a directional unit. I *believe* limiting the power to 10kw in the direction of the Canadian border would satisfy the treaty - they could run 30kw in any other direction.

A second VHF DTV station (WTVF-5 here in Nashville) has now applied for a "nested" UHF transmitter. WTVF proposes to operate a 100kw* transmitter on channel 50 from the same tower as their 22kw channel 5 operation. Channel 5 will remain on the air. They join WLS-7 Chicago which proposes a 15kw rig on channel 32.

* I realize that greatly exceeds the power limit for a DTV translator. WTVF acknowledges the fact and requests a waiver.

 

[tripinva]

Can you link me to the WPVI amendment? I don't see it. I still see just the omni.

- Trip