K-Earth 101 Having Thousand-Song Weekend (With No Repeats!)

[zumahans]

David, for an intelligent, smart and courteous person, you make some of the most idiotic, stupid posts imaginable.

Get it through your head: I am not talking about radio ratings. I am talking about what people listen to!

You keep talking about the size of the radio market. I talk about how many people live in the area. Big difference! My figure is more relevant to everyone except radio excutives.

This quote is unbelievable: "Radio is not an iPod or some other music player. Radio ratings rate radio, meaning terrestrial, satellite and streaming. They don't rate music players any more than they rated the playing of 45's in the 50's and 60's."

EXACTLY MY POINT. Thank you for admitting the obvious: radio ratings do not reflect the reality of where people are spending their time and attention. Buggywhip factories thought they were doing a pretty good job too.

----->Satellite is still about 0.5 percent of US radio listening.

And growing, even according to your statistics, which you admit do not track new technoolgies like iPods accurately.

 

[zumahans]

And don't even get me started on "radio formats are not splintering".

What a ridiculous notion.

 

[OldGringo]

And don't even get me started on "radio formats are not splintering".

What a ridiculous notion.

The only time formats increased in number (which is the gist of the original post) was during the period post-1967 when FMs had to quit simulcasting and developed new formats, and this continued well into the 70's.

In most large markets, the number of viable stations has changed little. In smaller markets, the 1990 creation of new stations or move ins via Docket 80-90 only made more formats available deeper in the market rankers... there were no move ins of any consequence in the largest markets, where the broadest range of formats existed.

What we have is evolution. Some formats die, like MOR, progressive rock, oldies, beautiful music, etc. They are replaced by Adult Hits (Jack, etc), AOR, or just disappear. Classic rock ages, and AAA appears in many markets. AAA does not work in most, so we get modern or alternative rock. Remember the furor over TM's "soft rock" format? Gosh, FM 100 even offered a country based beautiful music format in the 70's.

Consolidation did have a minor effect on variety, because clusters did not need to have certain formats to win... so markets with three CHRs pre-consolidation got a CHR and a Churban instead... and someone went out of format. But these are subtle differences of mix, not entirely new formats.

Another change from the 70's is that AM is only viable for talk and some forms of ethnic programming. All the other AM formats have either moved or are moving to FM (Spanish formats, gospel, etc) or are dead or dying... like standards.

I really do not think there is a significant change in number of formats. What there is in some markets is an increase in stations offering a greater number of formats, but the total menu is about the same... just different names for different ways of reaching the same sales demos.

 

[OldGringo]

David, for an intelligent, smart and courteous person, you make some of the most idiotic, stupid posts imaginable.

Get it through your head: I am not talking about radio ratings. I am talking about what people listen to!

And that is irrelevant to radio ratings. Radio ratings measure radio listening, not how many times people hear the toilet flush. And my point: There is less than a 1% cume erosion in the last 9 years (using LA as an example, but I checked 16 other markets) and the TSL erosion is about 6.6% over the same 9 years.

What people are doing in that 1;15 of time they did not listen to radio is a different kind of research. Since radio is priced on delivery, it is, in a sense, irrelevant. The model of radio is to provide a finite audience size, measured by Arbitron, and sell it to advertisers at a precise cost per point. Since the "point" is based on the total universe (listening and not listening, listeners and non-listeners) so advertisers buy based on today's delivery.

In 1950, before the freeze was lifted, radio had 21 hours of TSL per person. In 1985, it was about 20, and today it is 17:45 (in LA... other markets vary by 15 minutes up or down... horrible radio markets, like Allentown, are lower). Over a 56 year period, a medium that is now 86 years old (commercial radio) has had an average annual erosion of less than 0.3% a year, despite all these: TV, color TV, 45's, cassettes, 8-tracks, CATV, Cable, Computers, video games, satellite TV, CDs, MiniDisks, iPods, video games, HDTV, longer work weeks, more leisure time attractions like parks, sports, theme parks, the fitness boom, etc., etc.

You keep talking about the size of the radio market. I talk about how many people live in the area. Big difference! My figure is more relevant to everyone except radio excutives.

But we are talking about radio: 12+ only (6+ in PPM) and in defined radio markets. This is the only way to compare stations because all the data we have is relevant to these radio maketing areas, most based ont he coverage of the bulk of stations licensed in a market.

This quote is unbelievable: "Radio is not an iPod or some other music player. Radio ratings rate radio, meaning terrestrial, satellite and streaming. They don't rate music players any more than they rated the playing of 45's in the 50's and 60's."

EXACTLY MY POINT. Thank you for admitting the obvious: radio ratings do not reflect the reality of where people are spending their time and attention. Buggywhip factories thought they were doing a pretty good job too.

Radio is an ad medium. Advertisers can now get all electronic media with one survey... radio, satellite, professional streaming, cable, terrestrial TV, storecasts, etc. with one system, the portable people meter. What people do when they are not using one of these services is irrelevant, as advertisers buy delivery. In fact, since iPods and such are not ad media, that reference is totally irrelevant as is the buggy whip refernece. Buggy whip sales declined as buggies went out of use. Radio usage is monitored, today, daily, and we can tell that listening levels are very solid all things considered. There is no "I did not know that is happening" thing going on.

----->Satellite is still about 0.5 percent of US radio listening.

And growing, even according to your statistics, which you admit do not track new technoolgies like iPods accurately.

iPods are not an ad medium. Ratings track usage of media... electroinc media. And the usage is very healthy.

 

[zumahans]

You sound just lilke the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1955, who told a business reporterthat he didn't have to worry about the interstate highway system or commercial airliners becuase he was in the railroad business.

He didn't know he was in the transportation industry.

You're equally in the dark.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

They're not splintering???? Cmon.
"Modern Rock" "Active Rock" "Hot AC" "Rhythmic CHR" "Hip Hop" "All Sports" all DID NOT EXIST as formats in 1980.
These all splintered off existing formats.

Where are beautiful music, chicken rock, progressive free form rock, standards, as formats. Some come and some go. We have seen all kinds of passing flavors, like Jammin' Oldies, too. We are seeing oldies dead in most markets, somooth jazz about to diasppear, AAA on the decline, and so on. I think the number of really separate formats is a funcition of number of staiton in a market, not the times.

Beautiful music morphed into smooth jazz and light AC, Progressive AOR is AAA, I have no idea what "chicken rock" is....standards still exist although less and less...(oldies is filling that void). Jammin'Oldies wasnt really a format...it was a weekend...passing fad like Disco, Rock 40, now gross genre hit stations (a la JACK) have returned, just like Top 40 of the 60's & 70's.

Okay....still missing the point it seems. What's the number if we estimate the "illegals" you argued are not included in the radio data??
Nobody knows, but probably a million more in LA.... if you go by percentages, LA has about one out of every 8 US Hispanics, so that math works.

So in essence the LA area does actually have substantially MORE people than radio measuring would have one believe.
Dont forget students, military etc etc.

So David, you are saying you believe fully in the accuracy of the current methodology?

I believe in the stated accuracy of a random probability sample, within the margin of error of a sample. Arbitron does a really good job, so I believe in the current product and in the PPM. They do a fine job. They are accurate enough for the purpose, given sample size vs. cost considerations.

Is that a long "yes"?

 

[zumahans]

You think that's a long answer? Ask him if "Fox 6 San Diego" is in the San Diego market: yes or no?

 

[OldGringo]

Beautiful music morphed into smooth jazz and light AC, Progressive AOR is AAA, I have no idea what "chicken rock" is....standards still exist although less and less...(oldies is filling that void). Jammin'Oldies wasnt really a format...it was a weekend...passing fad like Disco, Rock 40, now gross genre hit stations (a la JACK) have returned, just like Top 40 of the 60's & 70's.

The beautiful music listener base and the stations did not transition to smooth jazz. Smooth jazz has little, if anything, in common with beaustiful music except the fact that many of the cuts are instrumental. In fact, the originators of smooth jazz would have been very upset if any comparison had been made.

AAA originated long after progressive rock. AOR came out of progressive, and AAA (which, except for about 30 college stations, is a dead format) is entirely different. Standards are basically gone from both ratings and most major markets, surviving tentatively on AM daytimers and such. Disco was a viable format for a number of years, just as Jammin' oldies is (it's still on in some markets, just no using that name). The Jack stations play no currents, so a comparison with Tip 40 is absurd. "Chicken Rock" was what Hot AC was called in the mid-70's... stations like WGAR under John Lund.

The length of duration of formats is not the issue. Many formats or derivitives come and go. The fact is, the number of formats is relative to the number of signals in a market, not to the era.

So in essence the LA area does actually have substantially MORE people than radio measuring would have one believe.
Dont forget students, military etc etc.

Arbitron does not measure the number of people. The Census does, and businesses like Arbitron get annual updated estimates from them and form companies like Claritas that cross check Census data with other indicators.

Is that a long "yes"?

It is the same "yes" nearly everyone in a decision making position in the industries of radio and advertising will give you.

 

[TheLaffer]

David, for an intelligent, smart and courteous person, you make some of the most idiotic, stupid posts imaginable.

Get it through your head: I am not talking about radio ratings. I am talking about what people listen to!

You keep talking about the size of the radio market. I talk about how many people live in the area. Big difference! My figure is more relevant to everyone except radio excutives.

This quote is unbelievable: "Radio is not an iPod or some other music player. Radio ratings rate radio, meaning terrestrial, satellite and streaming. They don't rate music players any more than they rated the playing of 45's in the 50's and 60's."

EXACTLY MY POINT. Thank you for admitting the obvious: radio ratings do not reflect the reality of where people are spending their time and attention. Buggywhip factories thought they were doing a pretty good job too.

----->Satellite is still about 0.5 percent of US radio listening.

And growing, even according to your statistics, which you admit do not track new technoolgies like iPods accurately.

If indeed Dave-O is intelligent like you claim we all know there is a fine line between inteligence and Common Sense.

 

[TheLaffer]

And don't even get me started on "radio formats are not splintering".

What a ridiculous notion.

The only time formats increased in number (which is the gist of the original post) was during the period post-1967 when FMs had to quit simulcasting and developed new formats, and this continued well into the 70's.

In most large markets, the number of viable stations has changed little. In smaller markets, the 1990 creation of new stations or move ins via Docket 80-90 only made more formats available deeper in the market rankers... there were no move ins of any consequence in the largest markets, where the broadest range of formats existed.

What we have is evolution. Some formats die, like MOR, progressive rock, oldies, beautiful music, etc. They are replaced by Adult Hits (Jack, etc), AOR, or just disappear. Classic rock ages, and AAA appears in many markets. AAA does not work in most, so we get modern or alternative rock. Remember the furor over TM's "soft rock" format? Gosh, FM 100 even offered a country based beautiful music format in the 70's.

Consolidation did have a minor effect on variety, because clusters did not need to have certain formats to win... so markets with three CHRs pre-consolidation got a CHR and a Churban instead... and someone went out of format. But these are subtle differences of mix, not entirely new formats.

Another change from the 70's is that AM is only viable for talk and some forms of ethnic programming. All the other AM formats have either moved or are moving to FM (Spanish formats, gospel, etc) or are dead or dying... like standards.

I really do not think there is a significant change in number of formats. What there is in some markets is an increase in stations offering a greater number of formats, but the total menu is about the same... just different names for different ways of reaching the same sales demos.

You THINK there is a significant change?? Come on Dave i thought you KNEW everything. You're slipping bud.

 

[TheLaffer]

Jhani Kaye one of the best PD's in America??? How about one of the most overrated pd's in America. Sounds like Old Gringo campaigning for a gig :

Anyone who could keep KOST at the top in a huge money demo for as many years as he did is obviously one of the bezt PDs in America.

I have a "gig" and certainly would not be asking Jhani for one in any case.

My retarted cousin Bobby could keep KOST in top 5 as the only true AC.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

AOR came out of progressive, and AAA (which, except for about 30 college stations, is a dead format) is entirely different.

Yeh dead in Los Angeles, and New York. Alive and well in San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Boulder, Chicago, Philadelphia as well as many smaller cities across the USA.
AAA is also very much alive on XM, Sirius, and my favorite the Internet. You really are sheltered in a way David.

And BTW with all your ramblings about how strong the commercial radio industry is today, well many here will start thinking of you as the Karl Rove of the Radio-Info board!! ;D

 

[zumahans]

He's looking more like the Donald Rumsfeld ....

 

[RadioStarOne]

There it is again the sound of "Dino" madly barking at each post that is made that he feels is bogus rather than listen for the real point of the post. Remember Dino he was the pet "dinosaur" in the Flintstones cartoons? One track mind runs
amuck on track 909........

 

[TheLaffer]

He's looking more like the Donald Rumsfeld ....

And George Bush

 

[RadioStarOne]

There it is again the sound of "Dino" madly barking at each post that is made that he feels is bogus rather than listen for the real point of the post. Remember Dino he was the pet "dinosaur" in the Flintstones cartoons? One track mind runs
amuck on track 909........

 

[zumahans]

George Bush?

Nah, DE is not that stupid. DE has worked hard. DE had achieved success in business.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Beautiful music morphed into smooth jazz and light AC, Progressive AOR is AAA, I have no idea what "chicken rock" is....standards still exist although less and less...(oldies is filling that void). Jammin'Oldies wasnt really a format...it was a weekend...passing fad like Disco, Rock 40, now gross genre hit stations (a la JACK) have returned, just like Top 40 of the 60's & 70's.

The beautiful music listener base and the stations did not transition to smooth jazz. Smooth jazz has little, if anything, in common with beaustiful music except the fact that many of the cuts are instrumental. In fact, the originators of smooth jazz would have been very upset if any comparison had been made.

AAA originated long after progressive rock. AOR came out of progressive, and AAA (which, except for about 30 college stations, is a dead format) is entirely different. Standards are basically gone from both ratings and most major markets, surviving tentatively on AM daytimers and such. Disco was a viable format for a number of years, just as Jammin' oldies is (it's still on in some markets, just no using that name). The Jack stations play no currents, so a comparison with Tip 40 is absurd. "Chicken Rock" was what Hot AC was called in the mid-70's... stations like WGAR under John Lund.

The length of duration of formats is not the issue. Many formats or derivitives come and go. The fact is, the number of formats is relative to the number of signals in a market, not to the era.

Well...as for Smooth Jazz. You're wrong. Stop comparing the sound of the formats and understand who the stations targeted.
And unfortunately one of the "true" originators of Smooth Jazzz fell from a SF high-rise many years ago.
As for AAA, KBCO, WXRT, KINK an KFOG might all disagree with you.
"viable for a number of years" means faded fad.....like Disco, Jammin Oldies, Arrow, Rock 40, Modern AC, etc.
The compariosn about JACK has nothing to do with the age of the song simply the genres.....
TOP 40's in 1973 would play Carpenters into Led Zep. JACK today might play Sarah McLachlan into Rush.
WGAR in Cleveland??? hahahaha

Wow...the other posters are serious when they say you think you know everything.

So in essence the LA area does actually have substantially MORE people than radio measuring would have one believe.
Dont forget students, military etc etc.

Arbitron does not measure the number of people. The Census does, and businesses like Arbitron get annual updated estimates from them and form companies like Claritas that cross check Census data with other indicators.

You didnt quote the census, my friend.......go look.

Is that a long "yes"?

It is the same "yes" nearly everyone in a decision making position in the industries of radio and advertising will give you.

Well, thats certainly not true. And dont assume that some of those who post here aren't just those folks.

 

[OldGringo]

Well...as for Smooth Jazz. You're wrong. Stop comparing the sound of the formats and understand who the stations targeted.

I was a syndicaator of Beautiful Music, and worked with other US syndicators in producing custom music. So I think I have a good vision for who listened to Beautiful Music.

I spoke with one of the two co-creators of "The Wave" (KTWV, the first smooth jazz format) and the inventor of the smooth jazz name (WNUA did not want to license "The Wave" so they invented the term for them). The target of smooth jazz was nowhere near that of Beautiful Music in age, psychographics or even ethnicity.

And unfortunately one of the "true" originators of Smooth Jazzz fell from a SF high-rise many years ago.

You are talking about a fine programmer, but not an originator. The format was originated by Owen Leach and Frank Cody of Broadcast Architecture, and applied to KTWV in LA before any other market.

As for AAA, KBCO, WXRT, KINK an KFOG might all disagree with you.

Those are about the only ones left. Even LA could not sustain one, NY does not have one... excedpt for a bunch of college stations. There are not even 80 commercial AAA stations in the US, and half are not even in rated markets. And some, like WXPK in the NY market, are little class A's with limited coverage and impact. There are, by comparison, something like 400 Regional Mexican stations and 764 AC stations.

WGAR in Cleveland??? hahahaha

Under John Lund, the station was top 3 in Cleveland, and had a very interesting format with great personalities and what was often described as the first Hot AC format... Top 40 without the edgy stuff or the stuffy stuff or the kid stuff.

You didnt quote the census, my friend.......go look.

Arbitron MSA figures are Census figures.

 

[OldGringo]

Anyone who could keep KOST at the top in a huge money demo for as many years as he did is obviously one of the bezt PDs in America.

My retarted cousin Bobby could keep KOST in top 5 as the only true AC.

In LA? Get real. There are KBIG and KYSR, which are other ACs in the same cluster. There is KMVN, an Hispanic targeted AC run by Emmis. And there is KLVE, which takes a huge share of the market. And there is plenty of overlap with other formats, like KTWV.

Jhani did an amazing job of keeping KOST #1 (except for KLVE) in the format for many, many years, despite frontal and flanking challenges from Bonneville and other operators.

Jhani is the consumate programmer, combining music, mood, talent, and imaging into a superbly listenable format. Very few have ever done it so well.