K-Earth 101 Having Thousand-Song Weekend (With No Repeats!)

[BACKnUSSR]

Gee...this is tedious....


So the "label" was actually applied to KTWV upon it's switch from KMET in 1987, along with KIFM AND KKSF (which had ALREADY been in the format). KTWV was also preceeded by WQCD (the former WPIX/NY) which would later "re-launch"
But all the predecessors were not "smooth jazz," although they certainly had elements of the format.... just not the mass appeal ones that made the format so viable when made mainstream. In fact, the key word is "mainstream" as opposed to "niche."

The stations I cited were doing exactly the same thing formatically that KTWV would adopt....with the exception of using the words "smooth jazz". They were specifically designed to appeal to the mainstream. Obviously you hadn't heard these stations firsthand. Otherwise, you'd have better command of what you're talking about.



under "smooth jazz" and WJZZ/Detroit.
My first radio job was at WCUY and WJMO in Cleveland. The FM was all jazz, as was, later the Detroit station. The core audience was mostly Black, and it did not have mass appeal. Calling WCUY an early version of Smooth Jazz is like calling an early Top 40 an early version of AOR... yes, there were an element or two in common but the formats were fundamentally different.

Who brought up WCUY other than you??? Nobody called it an early version of "smooth jazz".
The fact remains WJZZ in Detroit was though.

You must understand that THEN and NOW....the only thing "smooth jazz" and "jazz" stations have in common is the word.
Charlie Parker and Kenny G are two things that shall never meet musically.


In fact, former beautiful music station WRVR/New York has dabbled in the format as early as 1977.
Playing some "jazzy" covers of pop hits hardly qualifies this statement. Beautiful Music stations, by the late 70's, were either going with syndicators or joining groups that did custom music. Those that could do neither experimented with all kinds of instrumentals, hoping they could reduce the dependence on Fanck Pourcel and Percy Faith. Most were not successful.

Great David. Only that's NOT what WRVR was doing.....they were playing George Benson, Grover Washington Jr., Chuck Mangione and Herb Alpert......certainly all early CORE acts in Smooth Jazz. Where do you come up with these completely irrelevant explanations?



With that number of stations, and most of them bing in "odd" markets, I can't see how anyone can claim such formats are influential or significant except to those who hold them dear. I am always amused that the Golden West group sold KSCA because the signal would never allow anything they put on it to get above a low 1 share... yet it debuted at a 6.7 under the new owner in 1997. That just about says it all for the appeal of AAA.

Another fine example that makes little sense. Alternative never clicked in NYC....so should KROQ/LA throw in the towel?
KSCA, in its own case: 1) didn't reach the proper geograhical are for its audience
2) wasn't a particularly well programmed station
3) did a horrible job in marketing itself

Also....no one here ever said that the AAA format as a whole is either influencial or significant...it's not....nor has it ever been ....simply that it has replaced what was true 70's era AOR. And that the "more influencial non-commercials" (to whatever degree they are) tend to be AAA, including, yes, KCRW, which still reports to trades and is classified as a Adult Album Alternative station....(they just dont play "the single"). There is no formal "eclectic" format. They are pretty much an adult rock-based station.


As to the other comment, Regional Mexican is one of the top 5 formats in the US, while AAA is not, based on AQH listening level and national share. AAA is not.[/color]

I agree that AAA is not. I dislike the format. It does, however, exist.


Not liking certain formats does not mean I do not track them, listen enough to understand them, etc. In the case of Smooth Jazz, I spoke with one of the creators of the format, besides my own experience in Beautiful Music. Simply stated, my opinion of the correlationship of Beautiful and Sommoth Jazz is that there is nearly none... and you seem to feel differently. I have researched the subject, including speaking with another person "in the know" and having been deeply involved in Beautiful. I don't know your credentials, but would welcome your comments. Disagreement is supposed to be one of the healthy aspects of this kind of board.


Healthy discussions are great...but it seems nearly every thread begins to become a tired old battle with you at the bottom of the melee. Personally, I find it disrespectful to twist statements rather than debate them at face value.
I'm not sure of your credentials either, nor do I care much. That's not a concern, but rather, its about arrogance, so I'll put the same question to you that NBC's David Gregory put to President Bush earlier this year....."can you cite an example of when you were wrong?"

 

[OldGringo]

The stations I cited were doing exactly the same thing formatically that KTWV would adopt....with the exception of using the words "smooth jazz". They were specifically designed to appeal to the mainstream. Obviously you hadn't heard these stations firsthand. Otherwise, you'd have better command of what you're talking about.

KTWV did not use the term Smooth Jazz until much later, as whoever owned WNUA had trademarked it in liu of licensing "The Wave" instead. My disagreement is that stations like KKSF and KIFM were much more jazz than "The Wave" or "Smooth Jazz" and were rather eclectic compared to the "mood music" of the early Wave.


Great David. Only that's NOT what WRVR was doing.....they were playing George Benson, Grover Washington Jr., Chuck Mangione and Herb Alpert......certainly all early CORE acts in Smooth Jazz. Where do you come up with these completely irrelevant explanations?

All of those were mainstream. They all had Top 40 hits, and anyone thinking that Beautiful Music did not play the TJB was not involved in the format. The point is that the vast majority of Beautiful Music listeners did not transition to Smooth Jazz as the mood was different.

Beautiful Music was based on familiarity and melody. As Mike McVay said at an NAB around 1988 or so, Smooth Jazz was, at the time, "Songs you have never heard by artists you have never heard of." A total disconnect, which is why I don't believe any Beautiful Music station successfully transitioned from that format to Smooth Jazz without a total cume churn.

Another fine example that makes little sense. Alternative never clicked in NYC....so should KROQ/LA throw in the towel?
KSCA, in its own case: 1) didn't reach the proper geograhical are for its audience
2) wasn't a particularly well programmed station
3) did a horrible job in marketing itself

KROQ is hardly AAA. It is Modern Rock / Alternative. And, more than a format, it is a person: Kevin Weatherly, one of the best PDs in the country.

KSCA has a more than adequate signal for its audience. In fact, it is as good or better a signal than KROQ, which is NOT on Mt. Wilson... the problems were varied, and maybe they could have programmed a bit better and marketed better, but the issue is more that LA demographically does not seem able to support this kind of format.


Also....no one here ever said that the AAA format as a whole is either influencial or significant...it's not....nor has it ever been ....simply that it has replaced what was true 70's era AOR. And that the "more influencial non-commercials" (to whatever degree they are) tend to be AAA, including, yes, KCRW, which still reports to trades and is classified as a Adult Album Alternative station....(they just dont play "the single"). There is no formal "eclectic" format. They are pretty much an adult rock-based station.

If you look at the schedule of KCRW, you find that they only do AAA for a few hours a week. I really do not see a mostly spoken word station as having amusic format. THe music is almost fill around the Bebe and PBS stuff.

I've also never heard AAA considered a replacement for 70's AOR. Most would say that Classic ROck inherited 70's AOR audinences, not AAA. AAA was Bob Greenlee in Denver, an alternative to the harder driving AOR stations of the time combined with the differences in lifestyles of the two core groups.

Healthy discussions are great...but it seems nearly every thread begins to become a tired old battle with you at the bottom of the melee. Personally, I find it disrespectful to twist statements rather than debate them at face value.
I'm not sure of your credentials either, nor do I care much. That's not a concern, but rather, its about arrogance, so I'll put the same question to you that NBC's David Gregory put to President Bush earlier this year....."can you cite an example of when you were wrong?"

A friend who was let go from a Top 5 market PD gig was told by the owner, "Son, you only learn from your mistakes." That is true for most of us. Fortunately, I owned my own stations early in my career and I could experiment without losing my job. On one station, I went through three formats before finding the right one. And like many, it took one experience where I believed that "variety" was more songs to learn the true meaning of the word.

Most PDs learn what contests and promotions work by trial and error. I've had bid duds, but they were also learning experiences. I think that the more creative and risk-taking aperson is, the more failures they will have... the idea is somewhat akin to baseball where connecting one time out of three makes you a significant hitter.

My biggest mistake was taking on a military government by joining with a newspaper in Ecuador to be the "voice of opposition." It cost me 12 radio stations... it cost the editor of the paper his life. I know all about mistakes...

 

[TheLaffer]

The stations I cited were doing exactly the same thing formatically that KTWV would adopt....with the exception of using the words "smooth jazz". They were specifically designed to appeal to the mainstream. Obviously you hadn't heard these stations firsthand. Otherwise, you'd have better command of what you're talking about.

KTWV did not use the term Smooth Jazz until much later, as whoever owned WNUA had trademarked it in liu of licensing "The Wave" instead. My disagreement is that stations like KKSF and KIFM were much more jazz than "The Wave" or "Smooth Jazz" and were rather eclectic compared to the "mood music" of the early Wave.


Great David. Only that's NOT what WRVR was doing.....they were playing George Benson, Grover Washington Jr., Chuck Mangione and Herb Alpert......certainly all early CORE acts in Smooth Jazz. Where do you come up with these completely irrelevant explanations?

All of those were mainstream. They all had Top 40 hits, and anyone thinking that Beautiful Music did not play the TJB was not involved in the format. The point is that the vast majority of Beautiful Music listeners did not transition to Smooth Jazz as the mood was different.

Beautiful Music was based on familiarity and melody. As Mike McVay said at an NAB around 1988 or so, Smooth Jazz was, at the time, "Songs you have never heard by artists you have never heard of." A total disconnect, which is why I don't believe any Beautiful Music station successfully transitioned from that format to Smooth Jazz without a total cume churn.

Another fine example that makes little sense. Alternative never clicked in NYC....so should KROQ/LA throw in the towel?
KSCA, in its own case: 1) didn't reach the proper geograhical are for its audience
2) wasn't a particularly well programmed station
3) did a horrible job in marketing itself

KROQ is hardly AAA. It is Modern Rock / Alternative. And, more than a format, it is a person: Kevin Weatherly, one of the best PDs in the country.

KSCA has a more than adequate signal for its audience. In fact, it is as good or better a signal than KROQ, which is NOT on Mt. Wilson... the problems were varied, and maybe they could have programmed a bit better and marketed better, but the issue is more that LA demographically does not seem able to support this kind of format.


Also....no one here ever said that the AAA format as a whole is either influencial or significant...it's not....nor has it ever been ....simply that it has replaced what was true 70's era AOR. And that the "more influencial non-commercials" (to whatever degree they are) tend to be AAA, including, yes, KCRW, which still reports to trades and is classified as a Adult Album Alternative station....(they just dont play "the single"). There is no formal "eclectic" format. They are pretty much an adult rock-based station.

If you look at the schedule of KCRW, you find that they only do AAA for a few hours a week. I really do not see a mostly spoken word station as having amusic format. THe music is almost fill around the Bebe and PBS stuff.

I've also never heard AAA considered a replacement for 70's AOR. Most would say that Classic ROck inherited 70's AOR audinences, not AAA. AAA was Bob Greenlee in Denver, an alternative to the harder driving AOR stations of the time combined with the differences in lifestyles of the two core groups.

Healthy discussions are great...but it seems nearly every thread begins to become a tired old battle with you at the bottom of the melee. Personally, I find it disrespectful to twist statements rather than debate them at face value.
I'm not sure of your credentials either, nor do I care much. That's not a concern, but rather, its about arrogance, so I'll put the same question to you that NBC's David Gregory put to President Bush earlier this year....."can you cite an example of when you were wrong?"

A friend who was let go from a Top 5 market PD gig was told by the owner, "Son, you only learn from your mistakes." That is true for most of us. Fortunately, I owned my own stations early in my career and I could experiment without losing my job. On one station, I went through three formats before finding the right one. And like many, it took one experience where I believed that "variety" was more songs to learn the true meaning of the word.

Most PDs learn what contests and promotions work by trial and error. I've had bid duds, but they were also learning experiences. I think that the more creative and risk-taking aperson is, the more failures they will have... the idea is somewhat akin to baseball where connecting one time out of three makes you a significant hitter.

My biggest mistake was taking on a military government by joining with a newspaper in Ecuador to be the "voice of opposition." It cost me 12 radio stations... it cost the editor of the paper his life. I know all about mistakes...

The only time Old Gringo Burritto Man David Hardheaduardo Gleason will admit to a mistake is when his back is agasinst the wall and everyone on here is calling him out on his absurd flawed and many times unfactual stream of drivel.

 

[OldGringo]

The only time Old Gringo Burritto Man David Hardheaduardo Gleason will admit to a mistake is when his back is agasinst the wall and everyone on here is calling him out on his absurd flawed and many times unfactual stream of drivel.

I have in the past posted my learning experiences many times... as I said, in radio you tend to lear by mistakes unless you just copy other people´s work. In fact, I am quite open about them, especially my one experience in having a playlist that was much longer than the competitor...

 

[zumahans]

David Eduardo is wrong again.

KCRW does not carry ANY programming from the Bebe - or even the Beeb, as I assume he has once again mangled the English language (while lecturing us on how to use it). Bebe was a movie about an animated pig, I think.

The BBC does co-produce (with WGBH) a one hour newscast called The World that incorporates a three-minute BBC news bulletin. That program is produced in Boston and dsitributed by American Public Media, and airs five hours per week on KCRW. That's it for the Beeb on KCRW, except for the occasional U.S. invasion of another country, when KCRW jettisons the music and picks up CNN, BBC and other feeds.

It should be fairly obvious that once again this expert on everything has screwed up. Asking him to differentiate between KIFM and KTWV playlists, or to digress on the finer points of AAA formats - is like asking to play "Pin the Tail on the Reposa" (a small South American rodent that once inspired David Eduardo's award-winning "All Bus Schedule and Obituaries" format in Bolivia - another day's thread).

There is no radio topic too small for David Eduardo to once again lecture us on, his pointer snapping on the lectern, as he consults his secret forumulae and scribbles on the chalkboard. Time to repeat, class: "Yes, professor, you are always right."

 

[zumahans]

---->"in radio you tend to lear by mistakes"

Oh oh. Sounds like Univision H.R. has a problem!

 

[SuperRadioFan]

There is no radio topic too small for David Eduardo to once again lecture us on, his pointer snapping on the lectern, as he consults his secret forumulae and scribbles on the chalkboard. Time to repeat, class: "Yes, professor, you are always right."

Haha you really paint the picture, Hans. BTW the movie was "Babe".

 

[zumahans]

I know, it is played incessently at my house!

Actually, the only Bebe I knew was Nixon's cocktail partner, Bebe Rebozzo.

 

[gibby]

David Eduardo is wrong again.

KCRW does not carry ANY programming from the Bebe - or even the Beeb, as I assume he has once again mangled the English language (while lecturing us on how to use it). Bebe was a movie about an animated pig, I think.

KCRW does carry music programming from Bebe. In fact, she's appeared on Nic Harcourt's program "Morning becomes electic." Bebe is a Spanish singer who had enormous success in Spain with her debut disc "Pafuera telarañas."
Last year she was nominated in five categories at the Latin Grammys and took home one for Best New Artist.
Her smash hit "Malo" was largely ignored by Spanish-language radio stateside. A few stations did play the track like Super Estrella, but it was widely dismissed. Bebe along with other "alternative" spanish-language artists have found airplay succes on KCRW due largely to Nic Harcourt such as Nortec, Aterciopelados, Cafe Tacuba, Kinky, etc. In fact, Nic Harcourt was a panelist at this year's annual Latin Alternative Music Conference.

 

[gibby]

oops let me post this again.


KCRW does carry music programming from Bebe. In fact, she's appeared on Nic Harcourt's program "Morning becomes eclectic." Bebe is a Spanish singer who had enormous success in Spain with her debut disc "Pafuera telarañas."
Last year she was nominated in five categories at the Latin Grammys and took home one for Best New Artist.
Her smash hit "Malo" was largely ignored by Spanish-language radio stateside. A few stations did play the track like Super Estrella, but it was widely dismissed. Bebe along with other "alternative" spanish-language artists have found airplay succes on KCRW due largely to Nic Harcourt such as Nortec, Aterciopelados, Cafe Tacuba, Kinky, etc. In fact, Nic Harcourt was a panelist at this year's annual Latin Alternative Music Conference.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Ozomatli is one of my favorite groups along with Calexico.

 

[zumahans]

I think Calexico is absolutely fabuloso. I have four of their CDs. My teen daughter is turning on her dorm mates in Virginia to that sound - they think it's wild too.

Calexico is one of the best things to come out of Tucson, other than Linda Ronstadt, Linda McCartney, Giant Sand, and my wife.

But David was not referring to Bebe the musician:

---->When you have all kinds of NPR shows, the Bebe, and whatnot, it is hard to call this station any kind of music format.<----

He is trying to say the Beeb, as in "This Is London."

So - back to the thread - the next time El Guapo Viejo tries to pawn himself off as an expert in AAA music, KCRW programming, or K-Earth 101 Having Thousand-Song Weekend (With No Repeats!), consider the source, and flip to another station.

 

[surfdude]

Would somebody alert a moderator. This board is officially f*%$#ed!

Pancho (OldGringo) and Cisco (zumahans) should just exchange phone
numbers and continue their radio foreplay in private.

 

[TheLaffer]

Would somebody alert a moderator. This board is officially f*%$#ed!

Pancho (OldGringo) and Cisco (zumahans) should just exchange phone
numbers and continue their radio foreplay in private.

Hey SurfPUNK,

Go bellyache somewhere else. That's what this board is all about, otherwise it would be a RadioBORED.

 

[zumahans]

Would somebody alert a moderator. This board is officially f*%$#ed!

Pancho (OldGringo) and Cisco (zumahans) should just exchange phone
numbers and continue their radio foreplay in private.

I prefer Crisco. Less greasy.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

KROQ is hardly AAA. It is Modern Rock / Alternative. And, more than a format, it is a person: Kevin Weatherly, one of the best PDs in the country.

Yes, I said Alternative......was making a point. Weatherly is talented, also one of the few PD's with the latitude to truly "program" anymore. The other ones who can do well too....Poleman, Ryan, Winer, Ivey....

 

[TheLaffer]

KROQ is hardly AAA. It is Modern Rock / Alternative. And, more than a format, it is a person: Kevin Weatherly, one of the best PDs in the country.

Yes, I said Alternative......was making a point. Weatherly is talented, also one of the few PD's with the latitude to truly "program" anymore. The other ones who can do well too....Poleman, Ryan, Winer, Ivey....

Yes i agree i think Kevin is a great pd. Wouldn't you agree Old Gringo?

I agree with Old Gringo...KFI is a well programmed station.

 

[OldGringo]

KROQ is hardly AAA. It is Modern Rock / Alternative. And, more than a format, it is a person: Kevin Weatherly, one of the best PDs in the country.

Yes, I said Alternative......was making a point. Weatherly is talented, also one of the few PD's with the latitude to truly "program" anymore. The other ones who can do well too....Poleman, Ryan, Winer, Ivey....

Yes i agree i think Kevin is a great pd. Wouldn't you agree Old Gringo?

I agree with Old Gringo...KFI is a well programmed station.

Kevin's skills are especially noted with the way he has made Jack the #1 English 25-54 in LA. The way he uses production pros in the studio to edit and really "customize" the listener drops is just amazing to listen to, and I am not much into the music. I also notice he obviously changes the playlist spontaneously when there are songs appropriate to the weather, some news item or something going on in LA.

And Robin at KFI has made the station the best news source in LA, vastly better written news and better delivered than KFWB or KNX.

Hey, we agree on something. Life is good.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

KROQ is hardly AAA. It is Modern Rock / Alternative. And, more than a format, it is a person: Kevin Weatherly, one of the best PDs in the country.

Yes, I said Alternative......was making a point. Weatherly is talented, also one of the few PD's with the latitude to truly "program" anymore. The other ones who can do well too....Poleman, Ryan, Winer, Ivey.....

Kevin's skills are especially noted with the way he has made Jack the #1 English 25-54 in LA. The way he uses production pros in the studio to edit and really "customize" the listener drops is just amazing to listen to, and I am not much into the music. I also notice he obviously changes the playlist spontaneously when there are songs appropriate to the weather, some news item or something going on in LA.

Not taking anything away from Kevin, who is extremely talented, and hires some strong people....but all of the JACK stations do the same "customization" and ALICE in Denver had been doing it for years....its not groundbreaking stuff. Something to be said for paying attention to your station as a living, breathing entity. And all of these guys have had #1 stations.....especially Jim Ryan who has had the #1 station in America for 9 straight years.

As for KFI.....figuring that the ratings are tied directly to one issue, like immigration as opposed to the war is simplistic and innaccurate.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

As for KFI.....figuring that the ratings are tied directly to one issue, like immigration as opposed to the war is simplistic and innaccurate.

I couldn't agree more. Regular KFI listeners (like me) know that. John and Ken talked a lot about the immigration issue, but it wasn't their only topic and I never heard Dr Laura, George Noory, Art Bell, or Leo Laporte talk about immigration or the War in Iraq . Bill Handel as always was all over the map and Rush Limbo ;D did his usual thing ... bash Democrats and worship Republicans.

EDIT: BTW speaking of John and Ken and KFI ... Every day listeners learn something new... How many of you know that L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa's born name was 'Tony Villa'? When he got married, he combined his last name with his wife's maiden name 'Raigosa' and came up with the new unhyphenated name. Also, 'Tony' sounds more Italian than Hispanic so he took 'Antonio'. What a plastic POS. And he's going to make a run for Governor in 4 years. Lord Have Mercy as J. Ladd would say!