Doing things that research shows time and again drive sellable audiences away isn’t courage. It’s bad business.
And if you’re doing it as a hobby with no real plan to break even, nor turn a profit, it also isn’t courage. It’s pointlessness.
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Doing things that research shows time and again drive sellable audiences away isn’t courage. It’s bad business.
And if you’re doing it as a hobby with no real plan to break even, nor turn a profit, it also isn’t courage. It’s pointlessness.
I'm still glad I have KSUR to listen to instead of KRTH. KRTH was great until all the jocks got blown out and the 60's/70's became the 80's.
KSUR is going after former KRTH listeners or those 55+ who remember listening Oldies formats back in the day.
Sorry but I'm one of the few 25 year olds in the minority who prefers oldies hits from 1954-1979. Don't get me wrong, 80's music is neat, but for me it only works in small doses.
With XM on my Smartphone, I know some pre-54 hits as well.
I call myself not an outlier, but a record collector.
KSUR is going after former KRTH listeners or those 55+ who remember listening Oldies formats back in the day.
Sorry but I'm one of the few 25 year olds in the minority who prefers oldies hits from 1954-1979. Don't get me wrong, 80's music is neat, but for me it only works in small doses.
With XM on my Smartphone, I know some pre-54 hits as well.
I call myself not an outlier, but a record collector.
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I'm still glad I have KSUR to listen to instead of KRTH. KRTH was great until all the jocks got blown out and the 60's/70's became the 80's.
KSUR is going after former KRTH listeners or those 55+ who remember listening Oldies formats back in the day.
Sorry but I'm one of the few 25 year olds in the minority who prefers oldies hits from 1954-1979. Don't get me wrong, 80's music is neat, but for me it only works in small doses.
With XM on my Smartphone, I know some pre-54 hits as well.
I call myself not an outlier, but a record collector.
Be ready to be told over and over again by snorting elitists that not only are you an "outlier", your opinions do not count and the response that you have to any radio advertising you hear is not important. Your enthusiasm for the music you like is to be ignored, but if you change your mind and say you like Cardi B, then that will be different. This is all multiplied if you happen to live in the unrated western end of the IE as I did for many years. In that case, it is all irrelevant, you just simply don't exist. Period.
That's a pretty obtuse view of the actual facts.
First, most significant radio advertisers target specific age groups, and nearly all are within the borders of 18 to 54 years of age. There is no ad money outside of that range, and that is a decision made by advertisers based on billions of dollars in research.
Second, radio stations target within that 18-54 range, generally more specifically to subsets they can serve.
Every station and every format will get "spillage" which is listening outside its primary target. The spillage is never significant enough for the station to be concerned or even interested in such light fringe demo listening.
Station focus 100% on their core target, and they know that losing sight of the core while trying to serve the fringe will cost them more core listeners and likely gain them few if any fringe listeners. Outliers are, by definition, an anomaly.
Transactional advertisers don't buy against metrics that don't exist. If an advertiser markets in the unrated zone, they know that their well chosen LA and / or IE buys will yield bonus listening in that area roughly in proportion to those market's stations overall audience sized.
Reality is not "elitist".
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I'm still glad I have KSUR to listen to instead of KRTH. KRTH was great until all the jocks got blown out and the 60's/70's became the 80's.
KSUR is going after former KRTH listeners or those 55+ who remember listening Oldies formats back in the day.
Sorry but I'm one of the few 25 year olds in the minority who prefers oldies hits from 1954-1979. Don't get me wrong, 80's music is neat, but for me it only works in small doses.
With XM on my Smartphone, I know some pre-54 hits as well.
I call myself not an outlier, but a record collector.
You are 100% correct that KSUR is going after the former K-Earth demos. It's a no-brainer.
When I was in my late teens into my 20's, KRTH was the station to listen to (along with 690, KIIS and KMET) Great jocks that knew the music and their audiences, great music, specials, promos and jingles.....just a wonderful, enjoyable time in radio history.
Today's 25-54 have zero idea what they missed.
So, that makes two.....two outliers (add lightning and thunder sound effects and a laugh!!) Sorry, I had to add that in there.
My view on that subject is a little different. Enthusiasm for music is measured in one's support for that music. it used to be that people bought music, and sales showed enthusiasm. That's not the case any more. Now music lovers want their music for free. They feel they're entitled to get free music. I often ask those music lovers how many concerts do they go to, and they tell me none. So they don't spend money to buy music, and they don't spend money to see music. How does one measure their enthusiasm if they're just sitting on the couch listening? Not very enthusiastic, if you ask me.
Looking at all these post are very entertaining. My thinking is Levine has simply decided it's "cheaper" to use this format, a format he prefers and makes sense for him at this point of his long career, than try the flavor format of the month club, which could cost many times more. The signal is not going to allow for many formats that have increased expense or even "risk." Sometimes it's better to know the format you know, than the unknown. If he says he is not going to sell the station, then he has no other option. I doubt he is going to allow anyone to pay "rent" to air their format. If anyone can get away with "pointlessness" - it should be Saul. My guess is the winery is not extremely profitable, either. Hobbies can be expensive, but these two business as hobbies are zero fun.
BigA - there are some other comments within this thread that I should highlight.
1) David mentions that there is little revenue to be generated above the age 54+ mark. We have discussed this for years. Based on national buys and stats, etc., David is totally correct. BUT, there is a rather small (focused) sliver of local advertisers that is still nicely viable. Thus you format a station to those business owners who like to hear "music geared to them" and when you have a fairly limited signal or are not part of a group/cluster, etc., you work what will keep you in business. Of course market size and demographics, etc., can make this plan less viable or not viable at all. I often call this the "less the one percent (profit) to the rule..."
2.) Oldies comment: "Today's 25-54 have zero idea what they missed." I think you need to rethink your ages, there. Us 54 year olds didn't miss "it." And we have not forgotten "it." As for today's 25ish group - let's face it. They may have missed it, but they don't get it if they hear it, they don't care or think they missed anything. They can hardly believe we has three TV channels and just a handful of radio stations that, I will add, offered better content in general than the 60 million options today. Ok, maybe we just did not know what were were missing when we had so far options. But, I think you see my point. Each generation feels like they have it the best.
3.) BigA = Your point referenced above, see my point one. Your point on this subject is absolutely spot on. 100 points. One of you best, yet. But, what do I know? At least you remember when Cumulus smartly dumped Gaylord. LOL.
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That's wonderful. I have no problem with people choosing to run their own hobby radio stations. But the point I was responding to was about the "enthusiasm" that people have for their favorite music. If they're not buying records, they're not buying tickets to shows, they're not joining fan clubs, or anything else that benefits the musicians, then how can we quantify their enthusiasm for the music?
Not sure they "dumped Gaylord." I believe they payed Gaylord millions of dollars for their radio stations, excluding 650 WSM.
https://www.nashvillepost.com/home/article/20447948/gaylord-to-sell-fm-radio-stations-for-65-million
I'm in the "oldest" measured market in CA with a median age of 54 and a population of almost 500,000 by next year. It has about the highest income levels of any market its size, with the median income over $120,000. It's the Palm Springs / Coachella Valley metro. Add in that it is recognized that there are over 100,000 homeowners who are not "permanent residents" who are in the metro only as much of the year as is allowed not to pay CA taxes so you have a sizable market where half the population is "senior".
It's a huge market for entertainment, restaurants, liquor stores, all kinds of retail. And it is a huge market for all manner of home items from furnishings to insurance to air conditioning.
But the advertisers who want to attract those residents, permanent and seasonal, don't use radio. They use TV for the visual element.
The radio station that plays a modified standards format is not even in the top 10 in billings; the soft AC is even lower than that. The #1 station, in Spanish, bills over 8 times as much as the better of those two oldster station. The #2 station, also in Spanish, bills 6 times as much. The #3 station, CHR/Hip Hop, bills 5 times as much and the Top 40 does quadruple the billings.
Yes, there is some revenue. A frugally run station can pick up some sustainable dollars, but the lure of TV is just too great for most local advertisers here.
It has to be even harder in markets that have a less affluent, less identifiable senior community.
I wonder what they would get today? Perhaps around $10 to $12 million for the station?
Sorry, I meant 25-54 as a classic hits range used today. You are right, many over 45 experienced some of that "radio gold". But the older you are, the more likely you experienced the true glory days. For me it was the 80's. For others, it was KHJ, KRLA or even Mega 100, the Mighty 690 or the Sound.
If you take a station in a market that gears itself to a demographic that can actually afford to go to concerts and actually desires to go to concerts and then your radio station regularly plays the music of those artists or groups and then you are able to promote those shows and sell advertising and promote yourself at those shows and grow your advertising base methodically, then you have a nice piece of a unique business model. This demographic probably does not buy many records. They have them. But, they do go to shows. Eat at restaurants near the shows, etc. It's a small, but loyal niche. Again, I know of no one in radio as a hobby just for the hell of it. I tend to think it would make a miserable hobby. Much like owning a restaurant, because you like to eat.
I was poking fun at the old Cumulus agreement. Cumulus paid Gaylord rather gruesomely, I mean, handsomely for the delightful FM stations during the gold rush years. They also ran WSM-AM for Gaylord for an extended period and that did not go well. That is why Gaylord still has the station and did not "eventually" sell it to Cumulus.* They both knew them dogs would not hunt. And now Gaylord cannot sell time on the station. And the tower lights are reflective of the listening audience. OUT. Translation: Cumulus (Crums back during the pre-proud Mary days)) actually worked a smart deal to not sink themselves into the financial pit of Nashville AM hell.
*ownership restrictions, etc., obviously helped, but there was talk of walking away from 92.1 and/or 106.7 to keep the caps in line.
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I understand the business model. I just don't see how it demonstrates the listener's enthusiasm for music.
It's good for the radio station, but it doesn't convey to the music.
It all depends. In the market I call home, the Barry Manilow Christmas show sells out for a full week of multiple daily shows... and they are moving it to a much larger venue this year with more shows still.
I cannot imagine it would even bring $2-$3M. That would honestly take Gaylord finding a partner that would tow their company line and promote their wares. How many ads could or would they agree to buy on the station they once owned? I also don't think you can just change the format or call letters and try to be another Nashville station. The audience that came to Nashville that did listen to this station several decades ago is sadly not around. Today's average age of a Nashville tourist has to be under 30-35. They would have no clue that WSM-AM even exists. Nor would they tune in. Gaylord ruled this city until they blew up Opryland and kept pushing city officials. Now they are at best 5-10% of the reason people come to Nashville. I never thought WSM-AM would be nearing it's time in a coffin, but...
Look at what just happened in NYC. $12.5M there I market #1? Market #43 with virtually no local AM listenership? As Joe Causi would say "fuget about it..."
I am not exactly following what you are saying above. But, as we have said before, in today's music market (and why country is so hot) it's not the music that makes the artist the money, because everyone gets it virtually for free. It's the crowds that show up to the shows, buy the tickets, attend the pre- and after-concert parties wrapped around the artists or groups, buy the liquor brands associated with the stars, etc.
I am specifically referring to the dreaded older demographic. This combination also happens, just to a different extent. So yes, 50-70+ year old fans of the artists/groups come to the shows, buy the tickets, attend the events and even, in a few cases buy the alcohol products...Sting, Dylan, Benatar, etc. Too me that demonstrates a lot of listener enthusiasm and it convey's the music. In Nashville there were crowds conveying their love and $$$ for Ringo Starr and Heart in the last 72 hours. I am sure some records were sold. Maybe 10. My guess is no one needed those. The old, useless non-spenders have had them for decades, if they ever were even originally bilked to buy them. These shows generated millions. Must have conveyed something. I doubt the 100 plus shows in Nashville for the dead demographic all come here for the hobby of it. Several thousand people attended these shows and sat on pews, not couches. In many ways, this forgotten audience has the ability to spend a couple of hundred on tickets to a show and dinner.
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I meant for the "stations" (my bad in not specifying the "S") as in the two FMs they paid about $70 million for.
The AM is likely worth just what you say. And the land is most of it.
Nashville tourists know what WSM is: it is the "initials" on the mike stands at the Opry and on the fake tower on top of the Hall of Fame building.
But the station itself is about as dated as Ben Franklin's used kite.
Love the last quote. I feel like Ben Franklin many days! Here's what I believe on WSM-AM. I quoted the station as being "worth" that amount. That is not exactly right. That's what some person with a sense of respect and loyalty would pay out of honor for the station. The books would probably show a value of far less.
The land is actually interesting. It's surrounded by roads that ain't going away on three sides. One of those three sides, could be possibly moved, but not sure that solves anything. The other two roads are an Interstate exit/entrance ramp and a major five lane thoroughfare. The tower itself scares me as it get's older. It's sitting on a concrete and brick structure that looks like it could crumble any day. I saw it on Friday and geez. I am sure an engineer is monitoring it. Prior to the last five years, the facility was better maintained. The actual fenced in area is pretty small. My guess is Gaylord could get six houses max on the acreage, as Brentwood has strict lot density and building rules. There is a retirement center nearby that could possibly use the land. Something tells me that the land itself may be prone to flooding and could pose some building issues. But that being said, if it is perfectly safe to build, Gaylord could develop the land, build the houses and sell them for about $2M each. They still would only make a few million after building costs.
True, "signs" of WSM-AM are found at a few locations around Nashville. That probably comes across more as a tribute than an actual advertising instrument for something that is still on the air. It's funny how two decades have drastically changed it's value and it's importance. Most of the younger generation is here for the wild parties, hip new artists flashy cocktail bars and all the fun things we did at that age. Not many cities have this level of 24/7 energy. My guess is two people a week under age 35 actually see the WSM-AM advertising and go to their car and tune it in. And that's probably a couple and one of them is going to turn it off within a minute after all the static.
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I'd go to a show with you, David. Barry's gotta have had some plastic (not credit cards) "updates." He still looks like he is 38. I guess those shows are necessary business model for conveying Barry's doctor bills. I'll buy the tix, if you drive me in one of your Maserati's. Our two combined ages together still doesn't exceed the speed that you will probably max out on the Freeway.
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