K-Surf 1260 growing playlist

[davideduardo]

I'd go to a show with you, David. Barry's gotta have had some plastic (not credit cards) "updates." He still looks like he is 38. I guess those shows are necessary business model for conveying Barry's doctor bills. I'll buy the tix, if you drive me in one of your Maserati's. Our two combined ages together still doesn't exceed the speed that you will probably max out on the Freeway.

My dream Maserati is waiting!

I actually went to the Manilow Christmas show two years ago, and it was fantastic. He is a good showman, and did lots of his own songs, some by others, and Christmas favorites with nice staging for a smaller venue (The McCallum in Palm Desert).

I like Barry: he has repeated taken on the financing for the Coachella Valley school music program musical instrument purchases, and was responsible for keeping the program alive when money threatened to bring it to an end. Of course, he is supposedly worth something in the low 9 figures, so he can afford it. But the fact is that he actually does it.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

BigA - there are some other comments within this thread that I should highlight.

1) David mentions that there is little revenue to be generated above the age 54+ mark. We have discussed this for years. Based on national buys and stats, etc., David is totally correct. BUT, there is a rather small (focused) sliver of local advertisers that is still nicely viable. Thus you format a station to those business owners who like to hear "music geared to them" and when you have a fairly limited signal or are not part of a group/cluster, etc., you work what will keep you in business. Of course market size and demographics, etc., can make this plan less viable or not viable at all. I often call this the "less the one percent (profit) to the rule..."

We are discussing one AM station which Saul Levine has openly said is not profitable (K-SURF), and one AM station which might be profitable but likely not (WSM). Obviously, both stations have their fans - I used to listen to WSM skywave at night after the Opry. Certainly WSM is not helped by the near-total desertion of the AM band in Nashville.
But honestly I'm not sure the best programming in the world would make AM radio profitable again.

2.) Oldies comment: "Today's 25-54 have zero idea what they missed." I think you need to rethink your ages, there. Us 54 year olds didn't miss "it." And we have not forgotten "it." As for today's 25ish group - let's face it. They may have missed it, but they don't get it if they hear it, they don't care or think they missed anything.

I think if you played a Wolfman Jack tape for someone in their late 20s, they would consider it hokey. i.e. not just that they don't think they missed anything, but they prefer modern programming to the programming of the 70s and 80s.

 

[TheBigA]

It all depends. In the market I call home, the Barry Manilow Christmas show sells out for a full week of multiple daily shows... and they are moving it to a much larger venue this year with more shows still.

Barry has a fan base. He sells out with or without radio airplay. We're talking about two different things.

 

[oldies76]

But honestly I'm not sure the best programming in the world would make AM radio profitable again.

It's a hobby station. You can get away with playing what they play. More people should invest a little and do what they've always wanted to do and want to do today and just play the music without consequences. They are on air and it's fun. It's cool. Many enjoy it.

 

[oldies76]

I think if you played a Wolfman Jack tape for someone in their late 20s, they would consider it hokey. i.e. not just that they don't think they missed anything, but they prefer modern programming to the programming of the 70s and 80s.

And there will never be programming to that magnitude again, (never say never, right?) except on those hobby type AM's and so forth. The FCC should be a little more lenient and open to those who want hobby stations, even if it's a measly 0.5 watts on some unused FM frequency, sort of like, neighborhood or street radio stations. Why not.

 

[michael hagerty]

It's a hobby station. You can get away with playing what they play. More people should invest a little and do what they've always wanted to do and want to do today and just play the music without consequences. They are on air and it's fun. It's cool. Many enjoy it.

Are you really "getting away with it" if you can't pay the power bill for the station?

And "invest" generally suggests the possibility of profit.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

It's a hobby station. You can get away with playing what they play. More people should invest a little and do what they've always wanted to do and want to do today and just play the music without consequences. They are on air and it's fun. It's cool. Many enjoy it.

To be clear, I do not begrudge Saul Levine for providing an oldies service to the LA area. I might listen from time to time if I was there.

I just do not see a long line of benefactors willing to do the same on moderate to bad signals in other markets when Mr. Levine can't turn a profit, even in LA. There certainly are hobby stations around. 1200 in Nashville was one (Big Band music) until its proprietor died and the heirs sold it to a religious concern.

 

[TheBigA]

I just do not see a long line of benefactors willing to do the same on moderate to bad signals in other markets when Mr. Levine can't turn a profit,

He's doing it on the cheap. His kids are doing most of the work. He also knows he doesn't have any better options. He ran it with classical music for a while. Selling the station won't get him much, other than a huge cap gains tax bill.

 

[CTListener]

He's doing it on the cheap. His kids are doing most of the work. He also knows he doesn't have any better options. He ran it with classical music for a while. Selling the station won't get him much, other than a huge cap gains tax bill.

Which his kids could be forced to pick up. Remember, he's in his 90s. The right thing for him to do is keep the station going, bequeathing it to his children or to some nonprofit (unlikely to be a church, for obvious reasons) after he dies, and enjoy KSUR and his remaining years. Just don't expect the oldies to survive Saul for very long.

 

[michael hagerty]

H He ran it with classical music for a while.

Right. Saul's had 11 call letter changes, with eight sets of call letters (he's used KGIL, KMZT and KSUR twice each) in 26 years on 1260, with a format change (standards, all-news, all-Beatles, showtunes, back to standards, jazz, standards a third time, oldies, country, classical, talk, an oldies/standards mix, back to classics, back to standards and, in March of 2017, back to oldies) to go with each set of call letters.

You could say what Oldies76 is saying about the current format about every one of them---he's targeted former listeners of other L.A. stations that changed, largely listeners over 55. With the same end result each time.

Actually, it'd be fascinating to know when the station was last profitable against all expenses, and when it was last able to at least pay its own power bill.

 

[davideduardo]

He's doing it on the cheap. His kids are doing most of the work. He also knows he doesn't have any better options. He ran it with classical music for a while. Selling the station won't get him much, other than a huge cap gains tax bill.

He paid $2.5 million for it 28 years ago. The land is likely worth quite a bit more than that now, but the station without the land is worthless as it couldn't find a replacement site that works.

Even so, it's not going to be a major gain after all other costs are added in.

 

[DaveBayArea]

With all of this talk about 1260 and it's poor signal I had to look it up. 20,000 watts daytime & 7.5 KW at night aimed at the coast. I know it's high on the dial but my 1st impression is that it would cover better than described here. LA must be noisier than I thought. I see there's all sorts of AM's in LA on the high end of the dial. Spaced 20 & 30 KHz apart, some with as little as 250 watts, with everything from Spanish sports to religion and brokered time. Are they all this badly compromised signal-wise?

Plus I see KSUR has a 100-watt FM translator on 98.3 up North toward Simi Valley. Is that on the air? Seems like it would be good for 100,000 potential listeners at least.

Dave B.

 

[davideduardo]

With all of this talk about 1260 and it's poor signal I had to look it up. 20,000 watts daytime & 7.5 KW at night aimed at the coast. I know it's high on the dial but my 1st impression is that it would cover better than described here. LA must be noisier than I thought. I see there's all sorts of AM's in LA on the high end of the dial. Spaced 20 & 30 KHz apart, some with as little as 250 watts, with everything from Spanish sports to religion and brokered time. Are they all this badly compromised signal-wise?

The highly directional signal, day and night, puts a 15 mV/m signal over around 3 million people, and about half that at night. The ITU has determined that in today's noisy cities the minimum required signal is 15 mV/m due to interference from all manner of microprocessor controlled devices, dimmers, wall warts and the like.

The AMs that have lower power at that end of the dial were all licensed long ago before the noise levels were so high, and all have become niche formatted stations serving communities nearer to the transmitter (Vietnamese on 1480, Asian languages on 1300, 1430, 1540, etc) or religion.

Just look at KABC. It's 5kw on 790 covers much more than KSUR at its much higher frequency, but its coverage has been significantly reduced in terms of listenability by the growing noise levels. What was once the long time #1 station can't generally manage to be in the top 25 due to signal as well as programming an the poor perceived quality of AM in general.

For those just tuning in, it's a generally acceptable fact that, given comparable transmitter sites and antenna efficiency, 1 kw on 540 will cover more than 50 kw at 1600. High frequencies are at a severe disadvantage and when they are directional away from the population center, they are even worse contenders.

Plus I see KSUR has a 100-watt FM translator on 98.3 up North toward Simi Valley. Is that on the air? Seems like it would be good for 100,000 potential listeners at least.

16,000 in the 60 dbu contour. I don't even know why they put it on the air.

 

[TheBigA]

16,000 in the 60 dbu contour. I don't even know why they put it on the air.

Could be close to where he lives.

 

[oldies76]

You could say what Oldies76 is saying about the current format about every one of them---he's targeted former listeners of other L.A. stations that changed, largely listeners over 55. With the same end result each time.

Actually, it'd be fascinating to know when the station was last profitable against all expenses, and when it was last able to at least pay its own power bill.

One would hope this is his last format hurrah and just leave it as oldies, as it attracts the greatest draw of former listeners.

As for the power bill not being paid, I'm being very literal, but PG&E would have turned them off for delinquency. Hasn't happened. The music is still playing as of tonight.....

 

[davideduardo]

One would hope this is his last format hurrah and just leave it as oldies, as it attracts the greatest draw of former listeners.

I don't know why you present as facts things that are not true in order to support your agenda of 60's oldies and loooong playlists.

1260 did its very best in listenership when it did standards, which was a recurring format. At one time, they seemed to be seeking the old KMPC listeners, even employing well known LA talents from "that" era like Chuck Southcott.

Like oldies, standards was not a commercially successful format despite it actually getting some fair numbers, particularly in the "Music of Your Life" days of the late 90's.

Honestly, it is really hard to keep track of the formats of any of Sol's AMs, whether Monterey, the San Fernando Valley, Tijuana or Costa Mesa. The only one of those that has had a "happy ending" was the Costa Mesa AM on 540 (transmitting from Hesperia) that he got licensed for an X-Band channel and sold to Korean interests for $30 million.

As for the power bill not being paid, I'm being very literal, but PG&E would have turned them off for delinquency. Hasn't happened. The music is still playing as of tonight.....

Again, you are adjusting the posts of others to fit your agenda. Sol himself said that the station did not bill enough to cover the power bill. He did not say he could not pay the power bill; he was just putting the economics of the station into a layman's perspective. Obviously, you did not get it.

Of course, we can admire your passion for a particular kind of music. But there is no evidence anywhere that the kind of deep and old format you'd like would get significant sales and audience traction anywhere. A gilded turd is still a turd and not even King Arthur's man Merlin's skill at alchemy can make it solid gold.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I don't know why you present as facts things that are not true in order to support your agenda of 60's oldies and loooong playlists.

1260 did its very best in listenership when it did standards, which was a recurring format. At one time, they seemed to be seeking the old KMPC listeners, even employing well known LA talents from "that" era like Chuck Southcott.

Like oldies, standards was not a commercially successful format despite it actually getting some fair numbers, particularly in the "Music of Your Life" days of the late 90's.

Honestly, it is really hard to keep track of the formats of any of Sol's AMs, whether Monterey, the San Fernando Valley, Tijuana or Costa Mesa. The only one of those that has had a "happy ending" was the Costa Mesa AM on 540 (transmitting from Hesperia) that he got licensed for an X-Band channel and sold to Korean interests for $30 million.



Again, you are adjusting the posts of others to fit your agenda. Sol himself said that the station did not bill enough to cover the power bill. He did not say he could not pay the power bill; he was just putting the economics of the station into a layman's perspective. Obviously, you did not get it.

Of course, we can admire your passion for a particular kind of music. But there is no evidence anywhere that the kind of deep and old format you'd like would get significant sales and audience traction anywhere. A gilded turd is still a turd and not even King Arthur's man Merlin's skill at alchemy can make it solid gold.

David,

Nobody likes mr. grammer and spelling guy, so normally I just let these things go, but I am pretty sure you know the man spells his name Saul.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

That's a pretty obtuse view of the actual facts.

First, most significant radio advertisers target specific age groups, and nearly all are within the borders of 18 to 54 years of age. There is no ad money outside of that range, and that is a decision made by advertisers based on billions of dollars in research.

Second, radio stations target within that 18-54 range, generally more specifically to subsets they can serve.

Every station and every format will get "spillage" which is listening outside its primary target. The spillage is never significant enough for the station to be concerned or even interested in such light fringe demo listening.

Station focus 100% on their core target, and they know that losing sight of the core while trying to serve the fringe will cost them more core listeners and likely gain them few if any fringe listeners. Outliers are, by definition, an anomaly.

Transactional advertisers don't buy against metrics that don't exist. If an advertiser markets in the unrated zone, they know that their well chosen LA and / or IE buys will yield bonus listening in that area roughly in proportion to those market's stations overall audience sized.

Reality is not "elitist".

Aye, my eyes just glaze over what you've posted for the at least 10 millionth time. CF's post was obviously said in jest, c'mon Sr Gleason, I know you have a sense of humor.. Like some posts on Facebook, this was one you could have passed up if you had tried really really hard!! HAHAHA (of course you'll reply to this as well, God Bless Ya)

 

[CTListener]

David,

Nobody likes mr. grammer and spelling guy, so normally I just let these things go, but I am pretty sure you know the man spells his name Saul.

Grammar

 

[davideduardo]

David,

Nobody likes mr. grammer and spelling guy, so normally I just let these things go, but I am pretty sure you know the man spells his name Saul.

Yeah. That is what happens when you have some commonly used Spanish words (in this case, the former name of KXOL in LA) added to your correction dictionary.