KBIG-MY/fm Cited by the FCC

[w9wi]

From http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2009-title47-vol4/xml/CFR-2009-title47-vol4-sec73-1201.xml, FCC regulation 73.1201, on when the legal ID must be given:

(2) Hourly, as close to the hour as feasible, at a natural break in program offerings.

(also at signon & signoff, not that that ever happens at most stations )

The wording has changed over the years.

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I suppose the question is, what exactly is the purpose of the legal ID?

I agree that the ID is probably better done in some other way. The PPM coder is certainly one way; the RDS PI or PS fields would certainly do the trick for FM; the short_station_name for TV. There seems to be a field for call letters in IBOC-AM as well, and they're now proposing a low-speed AM data system similar to IBOC but located in the center of the analog signal; call letters might be transmitted there.

===

I'd sure love to know the details of what's up with KBIG.

I'm not in LA so I don't know, but it seems VERY unlikely that a major station owned by a major group owner in market #2 would fail to ID at all.

I have to wonder... is it possible the FCC agents listened across the top of the hour, heard the FM 104.3 "non-ID" between songs (and possibly among a few promos & commercials), but didn't hear the legal ID that aired five minutes later or seven minutes earlier? In other words, that KBIG wasn't really cited for not IDing at all, but for not IDing "as close to the hour as feasible"?

This is a "Notice of Violation", not a "Notice of Apparent Liability" -- isn't the latter what usually happens when there's a clearcut violation, like an AM station operating on day facilities all night?

I'm wondering if the real story behind this might be the Commission sending a message that the practice of IDing several minutes before or after the hour, when you're in a commercial break at the TOH itself, might no longer be tolerated?

 

[oldtimeradio]

Oh yeah. That automation system I mentioned was 1969-1970. So, someone programmed the silly thing to play an ID over whatever was on the air. It wouldn't wait for the song to end. (It was an all instrumental format.)

Sorry I forgot to mention that. I knew what I was writing about, I just forgot to tell the whole class.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

It's also because the FCC doesn't strictly enforce the rules. They should.

Why should they? Call letters are relatively useless today, where most stations identify by means of a name, so the calls are superfluous.

In fact, if an ID is needed for reasons of identifying interference, etc., the Arbitron PPM system of embedding a data burst in the station audio as often as 12 times a minute is really superior and does not waste time.

David, You are too far into the industry forest to see the listener trees on this one. Yes, I agree with you that the vast majority of people don't care, they just know they are listening to "Hot Hits 102.9". But "Hot Hits 102.9" is a format and an address, not a station. When you listen to an over the air station on the AM or FM band, you are still listening to a radio station with unique call letters such as KRAP-FM, and there are still many people who care what station it is they are listening to, particularly if they have never heard the station before, are new to the area, are DXing, etc. (you know, radio enthusiasts, such as the type of people that would come to this board). Station owners are asked for so little in the way of over-the-air content regulation these days (which I believe is entirely appropriate), I hardly think that a three second ID at or near the TOH to tell the public exactly who you are presents a hardship to the station. Even at that they let you have as much leeway as you want - it doesn't have to be right at the TOH, it can be whispered, it can be sung, and as others have pointed out, it can even be misleading - as long as it is there.

Also there is the concept of informing listeners during times of disaster/crisis. For example, what if at 6:00 pm a large earthquake hits off the coast of California and a tsunami is on the way. Many stations have interrupted their format to give up to date news. If one is a listener on Catalina Island, they might turn to 740 which is (was) actually licensed to Avalon for important local updates. That listener would probably want to know if he is listening to local KBRT or KCBS hundreds of miles away. It would be kinda important.

I understand this example is an extreme case, and I am sure others could find better examples for what I am trying to point out, but the fact of the matter is, it is still sometimes very important to know what station you are listening to.

 

[TheBigA]

I'm wondering if the real story behind this might be the Commission sending a message that the practice of IDing several minutes before or after the hour, when you're in a commercial break at the TOH itself, might no longer be tolerated?

Huh? Maybe reading too much into it. More likely they received a well documented complaint from someone, and they couldn't ignore it. Typically the majority of the complaints aren't documented. So when one comes in with what appears to be good documentation, like a time-coded tape, they send the violation. Because it was just a few months ago, it's likely the station still has its own time-coded tape from the day, and can check it. Most major market clusters save their logger tapes for a year.

 

[davideduardo]

David, You are too far into the industry forest to see the listener trees on this one.

Listeners don't as a rule identify stations by call letters... they identify them by the dial position. This is seen in decades of looking at and tabulating Arbitron diary entries which, in their vast majority list frequency. Next is station name, and then are call letters.

In most of the world, stations are identified by names, not call letters, and there is no issue with being able to tell one station from another. In fact, a study was done by a research company with operations in both the US and another country where names were the norm, and the average person could cite by memory almost double the number of "name" stations as "call letter" stations.

Imagine, for example, if you didn't call your friends by their names, but instead, by their Social Security numbers. Bill and Sue and Frank would be 111-11-1111 and 222-22-2222 and 333-33-3333! How many people's names could you remember that way?

Yes, I agree with you that the vast majority of people don't care, they just know they are listening to "Hot Hits 102.9". But "Hot Hits 102.9" is a format and an address, not a station.

Not really. Calls are just a standardized name... just harder to remember.

If you live in LA, Kiss is a radio station. Nobody calls it "KIIS" in fact.

...there are still many people who care what station it is they are listening to, particularly if they have never heard the station before, are new to the area, are DXing, etc.

And most listeners... we are talking about 95% or more... will learn that the stations they like are things like The Coast and The Wave and My FM or K-love and La Raza and Que Buena. They will refer to them, mostly, by dial position. And practically never by call letters.

Since there are so few DXers left, and their listening is, as always, singularly insignificant to stations, keeping them happy is hardly a concern.

I hardly think that a three second ID at or near the TOH to tell the public exactly who you are presents a hardship to the station.

It's arcane, and a waste of time. It provides no useful information, and is confusing to the current Internet generation... it could be said that they are an obstacle to making the content transition from AM and FM to new media.

For example, what if at 6:00 pm a large earthquake hits off the coast of California and a tsunami is on the way. Many stations have interrupted their format to give up to date news. If one is a listener on Catalina Island, they might turn to 740 which is (was) actually licensed to Avalon for important local updates.

When, in its roughly 60 year history, did KBIG (and later KBRT) have any real local service to Avalon? The station was built to push a signal off the island into LA.

In any case, listeners either know which stations provide news service or they will find them by scanning the dial in an emergency.

it is still sometimes very important to know what station you are listening to.

So what would be the difference between knowing that you were listening to KBRT-740 and "Waldo 740" in the case of an emergency? You don't really think that listeners distinguish which of the area stations is licensed to LA, which to Glendale or Pasadena or Inglewood or whatever?

 

[davideduardo]

When you listen to an over the air station on the AM or FM band, you are still listening to a radio station with unique call letters such as KRAP-FM, and there are still many people who care what station it is they are listening to...

I forgot to five you the anecdotal version of this story.

About 10 years ago, I was at a station where we had to fill in a contract for a well known computer music scheduling software program. They required the call letters of the station. Not the name, not the company name, but the call letters.

The problem was that none of us in the building knew what the call letters were. We call the legal guy, and he did not know them and could not find them We debated a bit on calling to the Federal agency that licensed stations, wondering if asking for the call letters would make them think something fishy was going on. We finally contacted a lower level employee and in a day or so were informed what the call letters for the station were, and we filled out the form and proceeded to forget the calls again.

Of course, you are thinking, this was in some poor country in some wretched town. It was actually in a city bigger than New York City, with over 200 stations licensed to the market area and where the station we were involved with had, at the time, a share of over 20% and a cume that was the highest in the Western Hemisphere. The calls were not important to us, to the government and to the listeners. But the station, Mega 98.3, was enormously important in the market.

 

[radioboy]

A few years back, a station in Tallahassee had this legal ID:

"The FCC says that once an hour, we have to tell you who we are. So, hi, I'm Steve."
(2nd voice): "Steve, you're supposed to tell them we are WAIB Tallahassee."
"oh, okay."

There was a little more to it, but that was the gist of it. Steve was the imaging voice.

I agree that the legal ID is basically obsolete. If I were to randomly survey ten people here in Tallahassee, nine of them wouldn't know any call letters. They would say I listen to the Wolf, or Talk Radio, or My107, or K-Love.

 

[cjwest]

When I started in mid 60's the FCC required twice an hour , top of the hour and bottom, with a 2 min either way variance. Transmitter readings were every 30 minutes if I remember correctly. I know the transmitter readings went to once every three hours before I got out of the business in the early eighties and the station ID at the bottom of the hour was dropped with only top of the hour required probably around the same time.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

At 10am this morning as usual, I was bucking the trends, listening to a radio station on a band that only those old enough to be my grandparents (all my biological ones have passed away btw) are apparently listening to anymore, well outside the 10-15 mV/m contour within which I should be able to detect the station's carrier with a SSB/QRSS CW/BFO circuit on a high-end military communications receiver hooked up to a beverage antenna outdoors away from electrical interference ... and I heard "Once, every hour, I have this disturbing urge to tell you that this is: KFI, Los Angeles, Orange County. News, on the hour, on the half, and all weekend long" then going into their news music bed and TOH newscast. The frequency wasn't mentioned in the ID (although "KFI, AM 640, more stimulating talk radio" was mentioned by the talk show host as he was leaving the segment before TOH.) I wonder if they mention Orange County in the ID cause their tower is almost on the county line? Also who's the voice that does the first part of the KFI ID? I also liked their using the Speak'and'spell voice to help them say "K, Keep, F, Feeding, I, Information" earlier in the hour.

 

[davideduardo]

I wonder if they mention Orange County in the ID cause their tower is almost on the county line?

They do it to "enfranchise" the OC listeners, since Orange County is part of the Los Angeles MSA.

 

[thomasthexpuser]

It's also because the FCC doesn't strictly enforce the rules. They should.

Why should they? Call letters are relatively useless today, where most stations identify by means of a name, so the calls are superfluous.

In fact, if an ID is needed for reasons of identifying interference, etc., the Arbitron PPM system of embedding a data burst in the station audio as often as 12 times a minute is really superior and does not waste time.

There goes DXing...

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I wonder if they mention Orange County in the ID cause their tower is almost on the county line?

They do it to "enfranchise" the OC listeners, since Orange County is part of the Los Angeles MSA.

David, wait a minute. I thought IDs are old relics that only radio dinosaurs and geezers care about and are not at all relevant in today's radio world. Now you tell us that KFI, one of the top stations in LA, owned by the mighty CC, strategically uses the IDs to "enfranchise" a large segment of their audience? You can't have it both ways. Either they are relevant or they are not.

 

[davideduardo]

David, wait a minute. I thought IDs are old relics that only radio dinosaurs and geezers care about and are not at all relevant in today's radio world. Now you tell us that KFI, one of the top stations in LA, owned by the mighty CC, strategically uses the IDs to "enfranchise" a large segment of their audience? You can't have it both ways. Either they are relevant or they are not.

KFI uses its calls as a name, basing the using on the history they trump on the air with the 40's sytel Earle C Anthony IDs.

In the 60's, I was in a market where nobody gave call letters on the air, so on one of my station I used calls as an ID. It was effective, as nobody else used them and they were easy to remember. but beyond this situation, I've pereferred names to calls always.

 

[RL]

It's just a gentle reminder that the rule still exists and is easy to carry out. As for Kiwi-Breath, he's still giddy he's in LA.

 

[Goldilocks94941]

I think legal IDs help in one way, not so much for DX hobbyists, but when you need to know where a station is coming from, not just the "entertainment brand" they're trying to push. Especially since so many stations now try to serve a "metro" market, when they were originally licensed for a outlying county or semi-suburban area.

One late summer afternoon, while driving southwest on I-77 across Ohio from Cleveland to Columbus, I could see I was driving into some pretty rough weather. Lots of AM static made distant listening difficult, and my car radio search stopped on nearly every FM frequency, picking up signals from 80 miles in all directions, since the highway crisscrossed between cities, instead of thru them. I couldn't tell which station came from where, and I worked in radio and had some idea of which frequencies were in which towns. I wanted to find a station to stick that might issue an EAS warning for the county I was driving in, or the ones I was heading for. But with so many automated stations, it was nearly impossible to figure out which station would have the info I might need before the black clouds descended in front of me onto the interstate.

I finally had to stop at a roadside rest station (since thre really wasn't much of anything else in the rural landscape) when I thought I heard tornado sirens going off in thd distance. Indeed, a NOAA weather radio that played from a wallside display in the small building gave tornado warning details to the two dozen or so motorists and their dogs who huddled inside the glass building, instead of driving into a possible tornado. It didn't touch down, but some towns an hour either side of the freeway did get damage from their own tornados.

It wasn't a case where my health and safety depended on distinguishing "lite" from "Hot country" and "Jammin' oldies." As a motorist, I needed some idea of which stations were from Mansfield or Mount Vernon or whichever other towns were southwest of me, and hope one of them had a live announcer who was aware of the hugh storm front passing thru and could give some sort of updates. The only big signal AM from Columbus that I could pick thru the static briefly noted possible severe weather in their hourly forecast, but WTVN wasn't interested in talking about what conditions motorists were facing 80 miles north. Even if their signal travels that far.

An ID with a city would at least help a motorist who has time to dial around to figure out if any of these stations were in range of where you could expect an EAS tornado warning, which I had correctly suspected was about to be issued. I never did hear one on the radio. And I could have driven blindly into a life threatening situation, with no help at all from AM or FM radio.

Likewise if I lived in Earthquake country I'd want some idea of what was going on in the area I was driving in, or heading to, after things get shaken up. But since so few stations have a news department or even try to serve "in the public interest" anymore, I guess there's no point in IDing themselves and anticipating some public anger over their lack of local service, eh?

I now have a weather radio in my latest Subaru, but have moved to Seattle, where it's almost always just chilly and rainy, and the weather station has an automated voice that tries to say "wind waves, one to two feet" every five minutes.

 

[TheBigA]

Likewise if I lived in Earthquake country I'd want some idea of what was going on in the area I was driving in, or heading to, after things get shaken up.

I think most people who live in weather-prone areas already know the radio or TV stations to tune to for info. Having the station repeat the same info, especially when stations are typically tuned in with pre-sets, rather the old spinning dial from the 50s, is a bit of over-kill. And if they're doing some long-distance driving, in some areas that are new to them, they will probably do what I usually do, and look at the weather app on their phone. I rented a car last week that actually told me the weather forecast on my dash. I'm not kidding.

The idea of radio being the main source of weather information was dealt a big blow in 1964, the year NOAA began. Before that, people needed other services for weather. With NOAA, the weather was available everywhere for free. You didn't have to wait for it any more. It's been almost 50 years since that happened, and NOAA has become a lot bigger and more powerful. And the public has figured out that weather information doesn't come from the radio station. The availability of weather-only radios has also hurt. I used to live in a tornado-prone area, and the TV stations gave away weather radios at grocery stores.

 

[K6JHU]

I have a weather radio at home. Major use is for lsitening at night when we are asleep. When that thing goes off at 3:00AM it gets your attention rapidly.

Back to the topic. Doesn't make a difference whether there are other ways of ID'ing the station. Until the FCC changes the rules, that is the way you have to do it.

 

[davideduardo]

An ID with a city would at least help a motorist who has time to dial around to figure out if any of these stations were in range of where you could expect an EAS tornado warning, which I had correctly suspected was about to be issued.

The answer is in RDS or HD or some other kind of display. Even an ID with city of license, that only happens once an hour and it would take hours and hours to ID the station you want.

I never did hear one on the radio. And I could have driven blindly into a life threatening situation, with no help at all from AM or FM radio.

Do you think that would have been any different 20 or 30 years ago? It wouldn't.

Likewise if I lived in Earthquake country I'd want some idea of what was going on in the area I was driving in, or heading to, after things get shaken up.

A quick scan of either band would take care of that. Keep in mind that those at the epicenter of a "bad" earthquake (one big enough to cause dangerous situations after the fact) are likely the least informed... the first to go in a big one is infrastructure: cellphones, landlines, electric power, bridges, utility poles, etc. For the first long hours after a quake, there is a shortage of information, which is why people on the air repeat over and over, "well, it sure shook a little while here in the Southland. Here in the KFC newsroom we had computers fall over and the lights went out!" "Yeah, Rachael, it felt like it might be the big one, but it seems like it was something less..." and on and on with banal chatter.

It's the same thing with hurricanes. I've been through a bunch of really big ones, and the best info came from the Hurricane Center, 900 miles away. Local information is unavailable as the infrastructure goes down and you can't go outside anyway unless you are terminally stupid.

 

[henry]

There are still ways to make the ID legal and have fun (like the "Steve" example above). One of my favorites is from KFI:

"Once an hour, I get this disturbing urge to say ... KFI Los Angeles!"

http://youtu.be/H7xmzZCmrtI?t=1m9s (at 1 min 9 sec)

 

[Thomps2525]

How many different lead-ins are there? Has anyone made a list of them all? I like the one that makes a little dig at album-rock stations: "More talk, less rock---KFI."