KFI tower rebuild makes some unhappy

[zumahans]

... all monitoring KFI, and none of them having any problem doing so, I would wager.

The EAS argument is a smokescreen. The whole EAS philosophy was that stations have multiple sources. If everyone is monitoring KFI, then that is defeated. Besides, aren't EAS decoders supposed to be monitoring more than one source?

KFI no longer has one-hop STL, does it? Burbank-La Habra must be relayed at least once.

The FM and TV facilities on Wilson, geologically speaking, are much more robust anyway. Rocks are far better for quakes than alluvial soil, such as the entire LA basin, including La Habra.

 

[zumahans]

It's my understanding that the tower that was felled by the off course pilot was a replacement, c. 1948, for an even earlier one at that location. The early one had two towers in a classic early "T" radiator configuration where the towers were non-radiating, and the vertical and "top" of the T radiated.

The KFI tower has been a conforming half wave since KFI was licensed as a 1-A clear, first as a T and then as a full half wave vertical.

http://www.oldradio.com/archives/stations/LA/kfipix.htm shows the KFI transmitter site in Buena Park in 1931, when KFI moved to that location in order to increase to 50 kw from its previously employed 5 kw.

A station of its class must maintain the electrical characteristics of a half wave radiator, or lose its classification.

So, what you just said in this non-answer is that the original La Habra towers were 400-feet high, and were rebuilt in 1947 as one 700-foot high tower.

The tower was increased in height 300 feet in 1947 long after the airport was built!

And where was KFI engineering, trying to save their precious signal, back when its owners plowed up the radials in 1991 and built an industrial park around the tower site?

I personally stopped there on day - I think it was 1991 to 93 - and took a picture of the art deco transmitter building standing alone on the plowed-up field, and old copper radials were sitting in a pile.

KFI long ago decided to sacrifice a portion of its signal to maximize cash flow. Now it's playing the EAS card? Hah!

You yourself have said that 50 kw clear channel (1-a) designations are relics.

Pity KFI, trying to keep a grasp of its 1930s technology.

 

[dbdigital]

No need to re-read anything. The reality is, is that the airport exists, the previous antenna was a hazard, and KFI still covers it's market. Now is the perfect time to work out a solution to accomodate both; or does the possibility of more lost lives mean nothing?

As for KFI being the primary EAS station, I believe that honor goes to KFWB. KNX is also a designated EAS station.

The aiurport came after the KFI transmitter facility, if I am not mistaken. There has to be some respect for prior usage. And there are, so far, no laws to protect stupid people from themselves.

KFI must, to retain its 1-A (former designation) clear channel status, maintain the radiation efficiency of a half-wave tower. They can not get that with a shorter tower, and finding another site is nearly impossible in Los Angeles, as 1500 has discovered... and as the defunct 570 and 980 cps for 50 kw have shown (amng many others).

We, and many other stations I know, monitor KFI. KFWB does not have a good enough signal in many parts of the LA market. For EAS to work effectively, particularly in any kind of emergency, KFI vastly above all other stations as a primary source. Per the County EAS plan, KFI and KNX are both LP1, and KFWB is an LP2. KNX's signal is not as reliable inland of LA, so most staitons monitor KFI.

I'm looking at the list of California EAS LP-1 stations right now. It lists KFI, KNX and KFWB as LP-1 stations with KFWB as the National Primary.

As for tower sites for new AM services, Catalina Island seems to be the current choice.

db

Catalina Island was looked at by KFI in 1947, just before rebuilding the antenna at the current site where they had been since 1931. They decided against it, as the island itself has horrible ground conductivity and the signal would have been worse than that of KNX on the coast due to a "bad low conductivity start" and the attenuation of ground to the more inland areas they wanted to cover.

Today, there would be no way to put up a tower that is footwet on Catalina, as the shoreline is mostly protected and the areas facing LA are rocky and sandy, a really bad place for a tower.

KFI is the only 1A clear west of Salt Lake City. KNX has real coverage and interference issues for the Southland, and KFWB has a signal that does not even cover the LA market, day or night.

As I mentioned, the stations I am familiar with are all monitoring KFI.

KBRT 740 Avalon is showing coverage from as far north as Santa Maria, down to San Diego and as far inland as San Bernadino. There are currently three CPs for new AM facilities on the island.

So Catalina can't be that unusable or unobtainable as you indicate.

db

 

[zumahans]

Re: KFI is no longer "Keeping Farmers Informed"

--->Until the mid-30's, it was essentially a place for crop dusters to land. It also dubled as a pig farm and a sewage treatment field.

So what. The airport predates KFI's 400 foot tower, and also predates the 1947 extension 300 feet in the air. The pig farm and sewage field are irrelevant, except as possible metaphors to KFI talk programming. The airport was there first .

the greater public safety is the issue, not who was there first. KFI's desire for signal out in other states at night, and Death Valley by day, is not Fullerton's problem.

---->KFI has no desire to cover other states. It has a desire to cover the LA metro and the surrounding area (LA DMA). There is no money in nights, local or otherwise. The issue is that KFI is the only 1 A clear in the state ...

Then why the fuss over the halfwave tower? You have said many times that 1 A clear designations are dinosaurs. Time for this one to die.

---->As to safety, the site operated fine with no incidents since 1931 until one bad or distracted pilot made an error. Hey, let's tear down bfridge abutments, winding mountain roads, etc., because someone might be hurt!

No, but when they are substandard, make them safe.

---->You can't just sweep one away because of a single incident.

No one said sweep KFI away. They said "live with the shortened tower."

--->The FAA at any time could have required different lighting. It did not.

The FAA should havem and didn't. It's past inaction is no reason not to act now.

---->Mt. Wilson is a hazard, too. Why don't you have it moved or torn down?

Stupid argument. Mt Wilson is not a manmade ego device sitting at the end of a runway. KFI can live with what it has now, or go away. There are alternatives.

---->And, since you are fond of poking fun at my typing, I do have to ask whether the infestation of grizzlies currently ravaging Buena Park is the reason for having a "bear minimum" requirement?

Roar. Good one, David.

---->Actually, the current signal is the equivalent of about 10 kw. It is not enough to penetrate some buildings, and is also not enough for reliable emergency service in the periphery of the LA area, where people would need it in the event of evacuations.

On the periphery of LA? Like KFI gives a crap about emergency programming ? You really think the next time a Northridge quake hits that KFI will preempt John and Ken bashing immigrants?

The market is 75 percent ethnic, now David. Much of the market doesn't speak English. KFI? Useless.

---->For a variety of reasons, you do not want the primary EAS station to be located in a less than optimal transmitter site. KNX, for example, is on a liquefaction zone. Good luck for that tower in an earthquake. Similarly, KHJ and KABC and KWKW, near central LA, are on moderate liquefaction zones. KFI is at a location where it could be run from the site in an emergency, something many other stations could not do given accessability.

Oh, please. In an emergency, the KFI site would be inaccessible due to collapsed bridges, throngs of people, etc. In an emergency, the real coverage will be TV station audio rebroadcast on FM, just like done New Orleans, Hawaii, and every other place where real disasters happen.

----->KFI has already gotten approval from all but FUllerton on using a non-conforming tower with top loading. This will give the equivalent of 1-A minimum field strength. There is no Base Insulated tower tall enough for KFI in LA. There is no suitable land anywhere in LA for the station (as a half-dozen returned CPs attest to). All that is needed is the Fullerton folks' approval of the use permit, as the FAA, FCC and everyone else are on board for the rebuild.

Too bad for KFI.

 

[OldGringo]

Re: KFI is no longer "Keeping Farmers Informed"

--->Until the mid-30's, it was essentially a place for crop dusters to land. It also dubled as a pig farm and a sewage treatment field.

So what. The airport predates KFI's 400 foot tower, and also predates the 1947 extension 300 feet in the air. The pig farm and sewage field are irrelevant, except as possible metaphors to KFI talk programming. The airport was there first .

Actually, it was a pair of 400 fooot self suporters, which were torn down and a single guyed base-insulated vertical radiator replaced them. The T had the electrical characteristics of a 1/2 wave, as did the 770 foot replacement tower.

The "airport" was not an airport until later... it was a landing field for crop dusters. And there have been no other incidents before the single case of pilot error... hardly reason to make a dramatic change. It's enough that KFI is reducing the height by over 100 feet.

--->KFI has no desire to cover other states. It has a desire to cover the LA metro and the surrounding area (LA DMA). There is no money in nights, local or otherwise. The issue is that KFI is the only 1 A clear in the state ...

Then why the fuss over the halfwave tower? You have said many times that 1 A clear designations are dinosaurs. Time for this one to die.

Two reasons. First, losing 1-A equivalent porotectrion makes the channel open for much closer co-channel and adjacent channel new licences, all of which can interfere with KFI in the DMA. And second, a half wave @50 kw is vastly more efficient than a 1/4 wave tower. The 50 kw goes much farther from a 1/2 waver than a shorter stick. In other words, shortening the tower reduces significantly the ground wave 25 mv/m contour and the usable local service of the station.

A good example is XEW in Mexico City, which dropped power to 100 kw for a number of years due to the expense of running the full licensed 250,000 watts. They found many areas in the metro that were noisy with 100 kw, and went back to 250 kw because of that.

---->As to safety, the site operated fine with no incidents since 1931 until one bad or distracted pilot made an error. Hey, let's tear down bfridge abutments, winding mountain roads, etc., because someone might be hurt!

No, but when they are substandard, make them safe.

They were not substandard. Were they, it is the FAA's responsibility to notify a ruling that the tower lighting needed to be changed, No such thing ever happened.

---->You can't just sweep one away because of a single incident.

No one said sweep KFI away. They said "live with the shortened tower."

And subject themselves to reduced coverage and a downgrading of the class of service. Who is going to take one of only 24 1-A's and downgrade it. It is worth tens of millions more as a 1-A, and is one of only a couple of viable AMs in LA.

--->The FAA at any time could have required different lighting. It did not.

The FAA should havem and didn't. It's past inaction is no reason not to act now.

The FAA approved the rebuild early this year. It is the use permit issue in Buena Park that is in the way, not the FCC, FAA or even the airport. They will rebuild at 100 feet less with a different lighting system. Only the totally non-technical dweebs in Buena Park are obstructing them now.

---->Mt. Wilson is a hazard, too. Why don't you have it moved or torn down?

Stupid argument. Mt Wilson is not a manmade ego device sitting at the end of a runway. KFI can live with what it has now, or go away. There are alternatives.

The people who know, the FAA and FCC, have approved the tower rebuild. And losing coverage is not an option if you are a radio station.

---->Actually, the current signal is the equivalent of about 10 kw. It is not enough to penetrate some buildings, and is also not enough for reliable emergency service in the periphery of the LA area, where people would need it in the event of evacuations.

On the periphery of LA? Like KFI gives a crap about emergency programming ? You really think the next time a Northridge quake hits that KFI will preempt John and Ken bashing immigrants?

KFI actually has one of the best talk station news staffs I have ever heard, The news department is manned at all times, and they have nicely written and competently delivered news, and even, in this day and age, have street reporters. Why are you criticizing a good news effort when most stations today have none? I think what they do is commedable, as do nearly 1.5 million people in the Southland each week. It may not be your cuppa, but it is a widely listened to and successful station.

The market is 75 percent ethnic, now David. Much of the market doesn't speak English. KFI? Useless.

News stations are one of the few that non-English dominants listen to. It cumes about 200,000 Hispanics weekly in the DMA. And that does not count other ethnicities.

Oh, please. In an emergency, the KFI site would be inaccessible due to collapsed bridges, throngs of people, etc. In an emergency, the real coverage will be TV station audio rebroadcast on FM, just like done New Orleans, Hawaii, and every other place where real disasters happen.

The primary service after the hurrican in New Orleans was WWL radio, a 1-A clear that had a hardened site with a genny set. The TVs had major damage, and there wes no power for receivers, anyway. Very few FMs made it back and none stayed on during the storm. The Hawaiian quake was minor, and proved what a bad radio and TV market Hawii is... paractically nobody has a generator due to cost and zoning. The only stations on immediately were AMs.

In Puerto Rico and Miami where I have gone through a number of major hurricanes, the only stations left on the air ever are AMs. The TVs and FMs abandon the transmitter sites due to fear of the tower coming down on top of the engineers, while AM sites are generally a good palce to be in a storm.

Again, the problem with TV (and cable) is that the receivers need AC, not batteries. FM is generally on tall towers or on mountains, where it is very hard to avoid storm damage.

A jeep and a computer is all you would need to get KFI on the air, as it would be relatively possible to get to the site on surface streets. Many clusters have aplan to work from an AM site in the event of the big one, as we know we can get that one on the air, while thee FMs are pretty much written off and the TVs have the "no power" to turn on receivers issue.

 

[OldGringo]

KBRT 740 Avalon is showing coverage from as far north as Santa Maria, down to San Diego and as far inland as San Bernadino. There are currently three CPs for new AM facilities on the island.

So Catalina can't be that unusable or unobtainable as you indicate.

KBRT is on Avalon only because placing it there was the only way to get cov erage of LA and at the same time protect KCBS in San Francisco. When John Poole put it on the air as KBIG in, I believe, about 1952, there were few restrictions on land usage on Santa Cataline. Today, the station could not be built. It's useful coverage gets from around the 5/405 merge to the north (missing the Santa Clarita area nmd much of the north and west valley) and inwards to the westernmost parts of Riverside County, and as far south as coastal San Diego County (if you are using radio-locator, reduce the innermost red contour by a bout 15% to get effective useful AM coverage).

Were KBRT an LA station, it still would have to protect KCBS to the north, and Los Mochis, Sin., to the South. It might be able to do 1000 watts, but from Avalon it can shoot 10 kw in SSE lobe that is useful.

There are 3 APPLICATIONS on Avalon, but no CP's at all. They are all Mark Allen's, with one being 250 watts unlimited on 1340, another for 500 day and 250 night on 1450 and still another for 500 watts directional away from the mainland on 1470 (less than 20 watts to the East). Any grant would be for a station or stations that would barely cover Santa Catalina, and be first local commercial service there now that the FM moved to the OC. 1450 and 1470 are mutually exclusive, and only one can survive. None of these would be at all listenable on the CA mainland.

Again, Santa Catalina is a big piece of rock, and absolutely the worst kind of place to put an AM transmitter site. KBRT is there because of the KCBS issue... it is sort of like having the station on the Santa Monica pier, aimed all East, but with the advantage that the pattern opens up over the ocean, with m inimal attenuation, to cover a wide swatch of the CA coast and areas within 10 to 30 miles inland from there, without sending nary a watt towards San Francisco or Mexico.

 

[zumahans]

And I can think of no better place for KFI ...

They want to resurrect a tower to preserve an outdated, inefficient use of spectrum.

KFI's current 10kw equivalency is far more powerful than most LA AMs. KFI, in its current pattern,covers the area sufficiently.

The cochannel uses in other cities are better, more efficient uses of the spectrum.

Protecting clean channel stations made sense in 1930.

Protecting 1-A stations made sense 20 years ago.

Today, jeopardizing public safety be reerecting this too-tall tower in order to grandfather in this exception to the rule is just stupid.

The use of the airport in 1947 - evern if just for cropdusters, were that true, and it's not - destroys your first erroneous post, upon which your entire specious argument rested:

The airport wass there first. The tower was erected under 1947 safety standards that were unsafe then and would be illegal today.

KFI's business interest in protecting their stick value - be honest, that what this is - should not be allowed to trump public safety.

In a real emergency, I would rather have the efficiency of an airport into which relief supplies can be brought, safely, than John and Ken penetrating office buildings in San Bernardino.

 

[zumahans]

First, you printed a lie about the tower, which you said was built in the 1930s. You did not reveal that the 400-foot towers were rebuilt as a 700 foot guyed tower in 1947, long after the airport - not airstrip, but an airport, was operating there.

Now, you print yet another suspicious claim: " shortening the tower reduces significantly the ground wave 25 mv/m contour and the usable local service of the station."

Is the usable, legal service of the tower still covering the Los Angeles market? Or the COL?

The usable local service of KFI's dangerous, nonconforming use should not be the concern of the City of La Habra.

KFI is a dinosaur, a relic of the clear channel area, back when Keeping Farmers Informed was important. AM radio is a dying relic, and KFI the last mastodon. Public safety cannot be compromised, and there are multiple other sources for EAS and emergency information. Most of what KFI presents as "news" is useless hype anyway.

 

[OldGringo]

And I can think of no better place for KFI ...

They want to resurrect a tower to preserve an outdated, inefficient use of spectrum.

KFI's current 10kw equivalency is far more powerful than most LA AMs. KFI, in its current pattern,covers the area sufficiently.

The cochannel uses in other cities are better, more efficient uses of the spectrum.

Protecting clean channel stations made sense in 1930.

Protecting 1-A stations made sense 20 years ago.

Today, jeopardizing public safety be reerecting this too-tall tower in order to grandfather in this exception to the rule is just stupid.

The use of the airport in 1947 - evern if just for cropdusters, were that true, and it's not - destroys your first erroneous post, upon which your entire specious argument rested:

The airport wass there first. The tower was erected under 1947 safety standards that were unsafe then and would be illegal today.

KFI's business interest in protecting their stick value - be honest, that what this is - should not be allowed to trump public safety.

In a real emergency, I would rather have the efficiency of an airport into which relief supplies can be brought, safely, than John and Ken penetrating office buildings in San Bernardino.

There were TWO towers there from 1931 to 1947, and considering the technology in both aviation and obstruction lighting, they were far more dangerous then than a single, properly lit tower today.

The real issue is that both the FAA and the FCC have approved the rebuild with a top-loaded 680 foot tower. These folks are the experts, not the use permit division of a town famous for a large mouse.

And, while you may actually be studying law (although you refuse to say where), you sure are not an engineer. It takes about a 12 to 15 mv/m signal strength daytime for an AM to be usable in a metro. KFI, at 10 kw, is not usable in the entire metro. At night, the minimum intensity needed goes up, due to outside interference from other stations... KFI now has a considerable number of Mexican stations to contend with, as well as some very powerful operations in Central America. 10 kw non-directional is not enough to cover the metro with that signal level.

And whatever you think of the programming, format is not a consideration used by the FCC in licencing stations.

Degrading one of the few truly viable AMs left does not make any sense at all. I sure hope that we do not have any earthquakes or hurricanes in the US and find all the good AMs are gone... TV is useless in most disasters, as is FM. HF is minimally useful, but few have receivers. So AM is going to be the only service left and usable in the event of major storms and quakes. In an emergency, too, the regular format is irrelevant... emergency programming would be put on whatever stations are still operating.

 

[OldGringo]

First, you printed a lie about the tower, which you said was built in the 1930s. You did not reveal that the 400-foot towers were rebuilt as a 700 foot guyed tower in 1947, long after the airport - not airstrip, but an airport, was operating there.

For a journalist, you have a shaky command of details. I stated that the "T" was built using two self supporting structures in 1931, and they were replaced in 1947 with a taller structure. My point is to show that there has been a transmitter site in Buena Park for KFI for 75 years, and it caused no problems except for the single case of pilot error registered two years ago.

[/quote]
Now you print yet another suspicious claim: " shortening the tower reduces significantly the ground wave 25 mv/m contour and the usable local service of the station." [/quote]

Reducing tower height from 1/2 wave to anything less reduces the ground wave 25 mv/m coverage. Small towers create less field strength than taller ones. This is basically a law of physics.

Is the usable, legal service of the tower still covering the Los Angeles market? Or the COL?

A Class 1 A is REQURED to have a 1/2 wave radiator or a radiator capable of creating the same or greater field strength at one mile as a conforming half-wave radiator. They could put in a Franklin antenna if they wanted (over 1500 feet high, though) but nothing shorter than electrical half-wave (180 degrees). There is a minimum efficiency requirement for stations, no matter where they are licensed.

The usable local service of KFI's dangerous, nonconforming use should not be the concern of the City of La Habra.

One accident in 75 years is neither an indication of danger nor reason to deprive the area of one of its only decent AM signals. I would start by checking the training requirements for pilots landing in congested metro areas. Next time, it could be a similar "pilot error" that causes a light plane to fly into a tripple 7.

Buena Park should not hold up a use permit when the FAA and the FCC have both approved the new tower. I really doubt there are any experts in anyting related to towers working in the zoning department in that town.

KFI is a dinosaur, a relic of the clear channel area, back when Keeping Farmers Informed was important. AM radio is a dying relic, and KFI the last mastodon. Public safety cannot be compromised, and there are multiple other sources for EAS and emergency information. Most of what KFI presents as "news" is useless hype anyway.

You let your opinion cloud reality. The survivors of Katrina were litening to WWL, the only station on during and shortly after the storm. During Andrew in Florida, many of the TV towers went horizonta, and nearly every FM was off. It was AMs that provided the service to the community in the horrendous aftermath.

During various storms I went through in Puerto Rico, the TVs lost service early, and the FMs followed except for those operating at low elevations (meaning they did not reach 90% of the Island). It was AM that was on during the storm, when 100% of the Island lost power (so TV would not have been of any use anyway). Most AMs are deficient in coverage, but those that are not will provide a valuable service for decades.