KFI - What is holding back the (inevitable?) move to FM?

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

If KFI were have to a fully staffed news department - and with KFWB basically abandoning the News format - how about KFI-FM being talked focused and KFI-AM being all News... Yes, it's AM - but it has an amazing signal and they could take revenue away from CBS.

Never going to happen. Unless robot generated voices deliver the news at Clear Channel, they will NEVER employ a large staff of reporters for news. NEVER.

 

[davideduardo]

Two comments in regard to the Bay Area - as mentioned, KCBS stared simulcasting recently on FM (106.9), but that frequency was a recent acquisition for CBS. Their first two short-lived formats on 106.9 were talk on Free-FM, followed by a return of Classic Hits KFRC. Both were abject failures, so CBS really had nothing to lose by going to the KCBS simulcast. So far it seems to be paying off - in the last 2 ratings periods, KCBS is either beating or tying Citadel's KGO-AM in the ratings.

In 25-54, KGO is 15th, and KCBS, with the help of the FM in those demos, is 3rd. FM KQED, the PBS station that is so well done, is first. So much for AM talkers...

 

[4UH8SIMBKAGN]

Wrong. Only the spray paint that you are using is. NOT at Clear Channel anytime soon. Period. You have ABSOLUTELY no proof that they are going to and you've been singing this song for long enough that I've proved you are wrong all along the way (KFYI isn't dying either).

No, it isn't dying. It was dying under the diary, where KTAR FM was getting better demos and much better station-to-station billing even if it did not win. Now, from all reports, KTAR FM beats KFYI in 25-54 by a huge and impressive margin... in pre-currency data from the PPM. We now know from experience that the precurrency stuff changes little, and the folks at Clear know it, too.

Clear Channel has not moved ONE bit towards moving their news/talk stations to FM. Two nearby examples. One Phoenix. One Tucson. Both have an FM challenger, one from an AM and one a start-up and have for OVER a year (more than). Neither Clear Channel station has moved to FM.

And they will lose. To save what? A marginal AM in Tucson and a less than perfect one in Phoenix? The crowd in Phoenix knows the difference...

The fact on this subject is that operators who don't move heritage n/t stations to FM will be challenged and either beaten or badly fragged by others who move faster.

I really don't care what your opinion is on this subject. I've previously posted that it doesn't matter if it is a good idea (OR not). Clear Channel has NO PLANS to put KFI on FM. Period. How many times must I post this? How long have I been posting this in response to you yet no movement is made to FM? Once again, NO CURRENT PLANS. Get your crow and eat it in 8 days.

Clear Channel isn't losing. Looking at the revenue that both Hot and KFI are making, down like everybody although May looks good for KFI with the election, they have much more to lose by putting KFI on FM. Unlike those other markets, KFI doesn't even have a competitor on FM. There is NO current upside to move KFI to FM. Period. Check-in next year and we'll discuss it then. Nothing is going to happen this year to KFI. NOTHING.

 

[davideduardo]

KTAR is an AM in Phoenix last time I looked.

... in a parking lot, too! My error. Of course it is in Phoenix, which is where Bonneville made a move from AM to FM with the talk format and now has won a major PPM victory.

 

[KeithE4]

KTAR is an AM in Phoenix last time I looked.

... in a parking lot, too! My error. Of course it is in Phoenix, which is where Bonneville made a move from AM to FM with the talk format and now has won a major PPM victory.

There's a reason why we call KTAR "Sports Parking Lot 620" on the Phoenix board. ;D

Actually, the parking lot (along with the mall that is in the middle of said parking lot), was built around the towers, not the other way around. KTAR built the towers in 1941, while the mall (called, for some reason, "Tower Plaza" until it was rebuilt about 10 years ago) opened in 1958.

But getting back on-topic, I'm not surprised that KTAR is doing better with talk on FM than AM. AM is still viable for sports (which I have a feeling will be the last English-language "mainstream" format to migrate to FM), but 100,000 watts on FM is better than 5000 watts on AM, even on 620, with almost totally non-directional pattern (only a few slight nulls at night). The FM signal is good for 75-100 miles, which covers about 80% of the state's population (metro Phoenix, Pinal County, and good portions of Tucson & Prescott if you have a good radio).

But KFI has one advantage that even the other blowtorches in the US don't have (assuming everything is fixed now): 50,000 watts on the lowest Class A frequency in the country. Would an FM stick on Mt. Wilson (do they run 100 kW there?) have the same or better coverage? Would outlying-area coverage (say, Palm Springs or Santa Barbara) matter to them, and if so, which would be better - AM or FM? I haven't been in LA in a few years, so I forget how the stations get out there.

 

[michael hagerty]

Would an FM stick on Mt. Wilson (do they run 100 kW there?) have the same or better coverage?

Keith: If memory serves, most Los Angeles FMs don't run 100,000 watts. KBIG is 84,000...KPWR 72,000 (which I remember largely from the legal ID in the 80s.."72-thousand watts of music power")...KLOS 61,000...KRTH 58,000 and KTWV 52,000.

As for the same or better coverage, I assume we're talking daytime...and I still think KFI-AM would have an advantage. Unless there's been a serious degradation of coverage area, KFI was good for about 150-180 miles in any direction...I don't know of an L.A. FM that can manage that.

There's an FM in Santa Barbara that can be heard at the Mexican border (and I've picked up 91X in Santa Barbara)...but I think that's probably more about a straight shot across water than a real-world expectation of coverage from an FM signal in Southern California.

---Michael Hagerty

 

[davideduardo]

[
But getting back on-topic, I'm not surprised that KTAR is doing better with talk on FM than AM. AM is still viable for sports (which I have a feeling will be the last English-language "mainstream" format to migrate to FM), but 100,000 watts on FM is better than 5000 watts on AM, even on 620, with almost totally non-directional pattern (only a few slight nulls at night). The FM signal is good for 75-100 miles, which covers about 80% of the state's population (metro Phoenix, Pinal County, and good portions of Tucson & Prescott if you have a good radio).

But the radio market is Phoenix, which, in turn, is only Maricopa County. Any extra coverage and listenership is very hard to monetize.

But KFI has one advantage that even the other blowtorches in the US don't have (assuming everything is fixed now): 50,000 watts on the lowest Class A frequency in the country. Would an FM stick on Mt. Wilson (do they run 100 kW there?) have the same or better coverage? Would outlying-area coverage (say, Palm Springs or Santa Barbara) matter to them, and if so, which would be better - AM or FM? I haven't been in LA in a few years, so I forget how the stations get out there.

Coverage outside LA and Orange couties is also irrelevant.... the market is the LA metro. While the nice KFI numbers in Riverside / San Bernardino may add a bonus or a tie breaker to ad sales, that out-of-market coverage and audience is not of much importance. The good Mt Wilson FMs cover vastly more than the South Mountain ones do in Phoenix due to the enormous height...nearly 5000 feet above the LA Basin. Stations like 7.8 kw KIIS cover more than a 100 kw station in Phoenix... and nearly all the Wison signals are stronger than that.

The real advantage of the KFI signal is its ability to overcome man made interference nearly everywhere in the metro, something many of the other AMs can not claim. But on FM, it would be that much better and reach the younger demos as well.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

But the radio market is Phoenix, which, in turn, is only Maricopa County. Any extra coverage and listenership is very hard to monetize.

The glut of homes that have been/are being built in Casa Grande and Maricopa--
both in Pinal County--are turning those areas into bedroom communities of PHX.

 

[henry]

Talk formats are gonna get hosed to news once PPM really comes online.

"Oh, I listened to Bill Handel, I'll write 2 hours down in the diary." = PPM, only 15 minutes.

"Oh, I only listen to KNX for traffic. I'll put fifteen minutes." = PPM, "oh yeah, and I left it there for my entire drive" 2 hours.

 

[elchupacabras]

Talk formats are gonna get hosed to news once PPM really comes on.

"Oh, I listened to Bill Handel, I'll write 2 hours down in the diary." = PPM, only 15 minutes.

"Oh, I only listen to KNX for traffic. I'll put fifteen minutes." = PPM, "oh yeah, and I left it there for my entire drive" 2 hours.

It all depends. Hosed in the younger demos (on AM especially), but in some aspects it helps. I watched an Edison webinar that indicated research shows a 13 percent increase in cume for spoken word formats. It has also created moderate ratings for some talk stations that hardly showed up before, but this is very erratic. PPM still has a lot of problems in its methodology/data collection, that's why even the feds are interested in probing it, and top groups won't accredit it.

 

[davideduardo]

Talk formats are gonna get hosed to news once PPM really comes online.

PPM has been officially online since August of 2008 in LA, and we have had reports since June of 2008... 12 full books. It's gonna' be official outside the top 20 markets (Phoenix, San Diego, Miami) in June, and in the top 30 or so markets by December. All the top 10 are official, some going back more than 2 years.

And talk on KFI has done very well in the PPM. And in other markets, stations that are good have done well.

"Oh, I listened to Bill Handel, I'll write 2 hours down in the diary." = PPM, only 15 minutes.

KFI has the longest TSL of any major station in LA.

"Oh, I only listen to KNX for traffic. I'll put fifteen minutes." = PPM, "oh yeah, and I left it there for my entire drive" 2 hours.

KNX is up a bit in PPM, but likely only because KFWB is down so much.

 

[davideduardo]

The glut of homes that have been/are being built in Casa Grande and Maricopa--
both in Pinal County--are turning those areas into bedroom communities of PHX.

It's still not part of the Phoenix metro, and not measured in the Phoenix ratings. To the advertiser who buys on metrics, they don't exist.

 

[KeithE4]

The glut of homes that have been/are being built in Casa Grande and Maricopa--
both in Pinal County--are turning those areas into bedroom communities of PHX.

It's still not part of the Phoenix metro, and not measured in the Phoenix ratings. To the advertiser who buys on metrics, they don't exist.

I find it hard to believe that Arbitron doesn't measure Pinal County as part of metro Phoenix, given the fact that there are 300,000 people there, and no local radio stations.

Every station with a COL in Pinal County is either a satellite-based religious station, has a studio in metro Phoenix but is licensed to a Pinal County city, or is a satellite/translator of a metro Phoenix station. There is no radio based in Pinal County and hasn't been for years.

BTW, the Census Bureau considers Pinal County to be a part of the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale metro area. Arbitron seems to be a bit (like 20 years) behind the times.

Arbitron has some strange ideas on what a "metro area" is, as far as radio is concerned. San Bernardino/Riverside is separate from LA? Long Island is not a part of the NYC metro area? This makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Greg Strickland]

Also, I think it can be safely said that anyone in the LA Metro who wants to hear KFI can pick it up OK. The areas (like in some buildings) where KFI reception may be impaired are probably less significant than the areas of the market where Mount Wilson FMs have problems.

To their credit CC did not downgrade KFI to a Class B station to escape the ordeal of replicating the original tower.

 

[davideduardo]

I find it hard to believe that Arbitron doesn't measure Pinal County as part of metro Phoenix, given the fact that there are 300,000 people there, and no local radio stations.

The idea of adding Pinal came up last year, and criteria for county addition was not met.

BTW, the Census Bureau considers Pinal County to be a part of the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale metro area. Arbitron seems to be a bit (like 20 years) behind the times.

Arbitron uses different Metro Survey Areas than the Census. Sometimes they are the same, other times not. To some extent, it depends on the coverage areas and audience reach of the stations home to the central city; metros get redefined every year with about 20 of them adding or dropping counties base ont he 50/15 rule. In brief, a certain percentage of the workforce has to commute into the established part of a market, and a percentage of listening has to go to the market stations. When two markets afre being combined, like Miami and Ft. Lauderdale in 1981, the subscribers vote on it.

Arbitron has some strange ideas on what a "metro area" is, as far as radio is concerned. San Bernardino/Riverside is separate from LA?

Yes, because 1. it is a separate metro and requires a vote to combine and, 2 the percentage of the population that commutes is not high enough to justify consolidating based on 50/15.

In fact, there is an area around Fontana, Rialto, Rancho Cucamonga and Ontario that is not in either market, in fact... around 800,000 persons neither radio market wants.

Long Island is not a part of the NYC metro area? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Long Island is in the NY Metro, although there are two breakout books, for the western and eastern parts of the Island. These are called embedded markets. San Jose and Santa Rosa are both ebedded markets, having their own books and also being part of the SF MSA:

 

[KeithE4]

I find it hard to believe that Arbitron doesn't measure Pinal County as part of metro Phoenix, given the fact that there are 300,000 people there, and no local radio stations.

The idea of adding Pinal came up last year, and criteria for county addition was not met.

Interesting. What is the criteria? A good portion of the residents commute to metro Phoenix (especially Mesa, Chandler, & Tempe) since there are comparitively few good-paying jobs there. There is no locally-based media, so everything Pinal County residents watch or listen to comes from Phoenix or, at the south end of the county, Tucson.

BTW, the Census Bureau considers Pinal County to be a part of the Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale metro area. Arbitron seems to be a bit (like 20 years) behind the times.

Arbitron uses different Metro Survey Areas than the Census. Sometimes they are the same, other times not. To some extent, it depends on the coverage areas and audience reach of the stations home to the central city; metros get redefined every year with about 20 of them adding or dropping counties base ont he 50/15 rule. In brief, a certain percentage of the workforce has to commute into the established part of a market, and a percentage of listening has to go to the market stations. When two markets afre being combined, like Miami and Ft. Lauderdale in 1981, the subscribers vote on it.

Again, I find this interesting, and somewhat unbelieveable. As I said above, a good portion of county residents commute to metro Phoenix, and, as a rough guess, 80% of radio listening is to Phoenix stations, the rest is Tucson. It is part of the Phoenix TV market, although most stations in both markets are viewable over the air, especially in digital.

Arbitron has some strange ideas on what a "metro area" is, as far as radio is concerned. San Bernardino/Riverside is separate from LA?

Yes, because 1. it is a separate metro and requires a vote to combine and, 2 the percentage of the population that commutes is not high enough to justify consolidating based on 50/15.

In fact, there is an area around Fontana, Rialto, Rancho Cucamonga and Ontario that is not in either market, in fact... around 800,000 persons neither radio market wants.

LA- and San Bernardino-area stations choose to ignore 800,000 people?!?!? I find that hard to believe. Is that an area with mostly retirees? I'm not familiar with that area so I have no idea.

Long Island is not a part of the NYC metro area? This makes no sense whatsoever.

Long Island is in the NY Metro, although there are two breakout books, for the western and eastern parts of the Island. These are called embedded markets. San Jose and Santa Rosa are both ebedded markets, having their own books and also being part of the SF MSA:

According to Arbitron's "Blue Book," Long Island is radio market #19, Middlesex NJ is #38, and the Hamptons area is #262. Does the term "embedded" mean that they are also added into the NYC market?

 

[davideduardo]

The idea of adding Pinal came up last year, and criteria for county addition was not met.

Interesting. What is the criteria?

A certain percent of radio listening and a percent of commuting, called the 50/15 rule. Not a high enough percentage of the workforce commuted into the PHX market.

Again, I find this interesting, and somewhat unbelieveable. As I said above, a good portion of county residents commute to metro Phoenix, and, as a rough guess, 80% of radio listening is to Phoenix stations, the rest is Tucson. It is part of the Phoenix TV market, although most stations in both markets are viewable over the air, especially in digital.

TV markets are, almost without exception (ones like San Diego are exceptions) much larger than radio markets, because cable often extends the viewing. There is just no comparison.

And, again, 50/15 did not apply. It may come up again. Commuting data comes from the Census as well as the annual updates from ACS.

In fact, there is an area around Fontana, Rialto, Rancho Cucamonga and Ontario that is not in either market, in fact... around 800,000 persons neither radio market wants.

LA- and San Bernardino-area stations choose to ignore 800,000 people?!?!? I find that hard to believe. Is that an area with mostly retirees? I'm not familiar with that area so I have no idea.

It's the piece of the Inland Empire along the 210 from Pomona to about the 15 freeway. The IE market does not want it, as there is too much LA listening, and it will dilute shares. And LA does not want it because there is too much IE listening, which will dilute shares. So it's unrated.

According to Arbitron's "Blue Book," Long Island is radio market #19, Middlesex NJ is #38, and the Hamptons area is #262. Does the term "embedded" mean that they are also added into the NYC market?

And San Jose is ranked, as is Santa Rosa. These and your mentions are part of a larger market, too. Nassau Suffolk is a base part of the NY survey, as is Hamptons / Riverside and Middlesex. They are broken out only because some local stations that do not cover the metro will pay for the book. Orange County was once an embedded market, but nobody renewed about 16 years ago and it ended.

 

[DoctorWu]

Also, I think it can be safely said that anyone in the LA Metro who wants to hear KFI can pick it up OK. The areas (like in some buildings) where KFI reception may be impaired are probably less significant than the areas of the market where Mount Wilson FMs have problems.

To their credit CC did not downgrade KFI to a Class B station to escape the ordeal of replicating the original tower.

Agree 100% with Greg. KFI is already a brick in the LA Metro and in San Diego, Ventura, Riverside and San Bernardino counties. I've picked it up in the daytime as far north as Daly City and as far east as Summerlin. And having a Class A clear-channel blowtorch is still a medal of pride for any radio company.

-- Doc

 

[OC Radio Geek]

Also, I think it can be safely said that anyone in the LA Metro who wants to hear KFI can pick it up OK. The areas (like in some buildings) where KFI reception may be impaired are probably less significant than the areas of the market where Mount Wilson FMs have problems.

To their credit CC did not downgrade KFI to a Class B station to escape the ordeal of replicating the original tower.

Agree 100% with Greg. KFI is already a brick in the LA Metro and in San Diego, Ventura, Riverside and San Bernardino counties. I've picked it up in the daytime as far north as Daly City and as far east as Summerlin. And having a Class A clear-channel blowtorch is still a medal of pride for any radio company.

-- Doc

I have said the same thing before. KFI's signal is far too strong on AM to even think about going to FM. I seriously doubt that KFI would simulcast on both AM and FM. I believe that they are firmly rooted in AM forever.

 

[elchupacabras]

Also, I think it can be safely said that anyone in the LA Metro who wants to hear KFI can pick it up OK. The areas (like in some buildings) where KFI reception may be impaired are probably less significant than the areas of the market where Mount Wilson FMs have problems.

To their credit CC did not downgrade KFI to a Class B station to escape the ordeal of replicating the original tower.

Agree 100% with Greg. KFI is already a brick in the LA Metro and in San Diego, Ventura, Riverside and San Bernardino counties. I've picked it up in the daytime as far north as Daly City and as far east as Summerlin. And having a Class A clear-channel blowtorch is still a medal of pride for any radio company.

-- Doc

I have said the same thing before. KFI's signal is far too strong on AM to even think about going to FM. I seriously doubt that KFI would simulcast on both AM and FM. I believe that they are firmly rooted in AM forever.

It ain't the signal, it's the band, and the band is dying. It is only a matter of time KFI moves to FM when their demographics continue to gray.