KFWB - More KNX bashing?

[K6JHU]

I heard a promo om KFWB lambasting "the other news station" for their new idea for traffic reports "traffic on the 17s" (as opposed to traffic on the 5s if I need to expalin it).

But what is going on here since both are owned by the same company. I thought you never tried to shoot yourself in the foot. Could somebody explain what what is the idea beind this is.

 

[henry]

I wish CBS would sell off KFWB. It makes NO sense to run two news operations. They are both excellent stations (I tend to like KNX better), but it's amazing they haven't tried to kill one of them off, or flip one to talk.

 

[socalguy]

If you look at their ratings, and ask anyone who knows how much each stations sales have declined in the last two years, you might come to the conclusion that they're doing a pretty good job of killing them off all by themselves.

 

[DToTheJ]

In New York, CBS owns both WINS and WCBS-AM, the former geared toward the city proper, the latter toward the suburbs more than the city. Like L.A., New York has its share of traffic jams, which bodes well for CBS to have two stations giving round-the-clock traffic.

 

[BeachBum]

I heard one tonight. Brutal. Looks like it's going to be survival of the fittest, with the weaker link changing format. Wonder which one'll turn?

 

[Shoot From Hip]

KNX turned from a modified full-service back to a traditional all-news presentation about 6-8 weeks ago. So I think you can see where this is going when it turns out there's only enough audience (and revenue) to sustain one traditional all-newser (esp. now that the Dodgers are gone from KFWB).

 

[dustintv]

In New York, CBS owns both WINS and WCBS-AM, the former geared toward the city proper, the latter toward the suburbs more than the city. Like L.A., New York has its share of traffic jams, which bodes well for CBS to have two stations giving round-the-clock traffic.

And they both seem to work well, although WINS has a higher lead over WCBS.

I checked both stations, and KFWB sounds a lot like WINS with teletype sound effect and all, while KNX sounds a lot like WCBS.

 

[stretched]

Are you sure they are bashing KNX? I heard one of these so-called promos that was definitely pointed towards KFI and Bill Handel. One line mentioned very long spot breaks and how the host 'handels' the news etc.

 

[Shoot From Hip]

Are you sure they are bashing KNX? I heard one of these so-called promos that was definitely pointed towards KFI and Bill Handel. One line mentioned very long spot breaks and how the host 'handels' the news etc.

So clever. I'll bet the 4+ share radio station is really quaking over taking a shot from a pop gun in the low-to-mid 1's that's not even in the same format. There's an effective use of your limited promo time.

 

[doublecashkgb]

1

Are you sure they are bashing KNX? I heard one of these so-called promos that was definitely pointed towards KFI and Bill Handel. One line mentioned very long spot breaks and how the host 'handels' the news etc.

So clever. I'll bet the 4+ share radio station is really quaking over taking a shot from a pop gun in the low-to-mid 1's that's not even in the same format. There's an effective use of your limited promo time.

How would you position KFWB in the market.?

So Shooter, what would you do in place of that type of promo?

Moreover how would you position KFWB?

Ever programmed talk?

 

[Shoot From Hip]

Yes, I have. KFWB does not pretend to be a talk station. Never has. Their slogan is All News, All The Time and Give Us 22 Minutes, We'll Give You The World. Trying to promote against talk station KFI is absurd (although I will concede that KFI also owns the news position in LA), particularly when co-owned KNX just re-positioned away from competing with KFI (the 1.5 share explains why they moved) to point their guns directly against KFWB. So you tell me. The bigger problem isn't what kind of promos KFWB should run, it's what kind of sense does it make for two co-owned stations to focus on such a narrow (and declining) audience instead of adjusting to compete with KFI, KABC, KRLA, etc.

 

[flakunkel]

Yes, I have. KFWB does not pretend to be a talk station. Never has. Their slogan is All News, All The Time and Give Us 22 Minutes, We'll Give You The World. Trying to promote against talk station KFI is absurd (although I will concede that KFI also owns the news position in LA), particularly when co-owned KNX just re-positioned away from competing with KFI (the 1.5 share explains why they moved) to point their guns directly against KFWB. So you tell me. The bigger problem isn't what kind of promos KFWB should run, it's what kind of sense does it make for two co-owned stations to focus on such a narrow (and declining) audience instead of adjusting to compete with KFI, KABC, KRLA, etc.

KNX and KFWB co-existed successfully for years under separate ownership. Both still make serious money. After several years of screwing around with the programming on both of them that angered and drove away many of their P-1 listeners, word has come down from corporate -- put them back the way they were. So KNX is back to a serious all-news presentation, and KFWB will drop the Dodgers (KFWB was losing money on the deal anyway) and live up to its historic positioning statement.

Moral of the story -- you just don't screw around with people's expectations of a well-established brand, which both stations were/are. Remember "New Coke?"

I do agree with you that promos bashing the competition are just silly.

 

[Shoot From Hip]

Yes, I have. KFWB does not pretend to be a talk station. Never has. Their slogan is All News, All The Time and Give Us 22 Minutes, We'll Give You The World. Trying to promote against talk station KFI is absurd (although I will concede that KFI also owns the news position in LA), particularly when co-owned KNX just re-positioned away from competing with KFI (the 1.5 share explains why they moved) to point their guns directly against KFWB. So you tell me. The bigger problem isn't what kind of promos KFWB should run, it's what kind of sense does it make for two co-owned stations to focus on such a narrow (and declining) audience instead of adjusting to compete with KFI, KABC, KRLA, etc.

KNX and KFWB co-existed successfully for years under separate ownership. Both still make serious money. After several years of screwing around with the programming on both of them that angered and drove away many of their P-1 listeners, word has come down from corporate -- put them back the way they were. So KNX is back to a serious all-news presentation, and KFWB will drop the Dodgers (KFWB was losing money on the deal anyway) and live up to its historic positioning statement.

Moral of the story -- you just don't screw around with people's expectations of a well-established brand, which both stations were/are. Remember "New Coke?"

I do agree with you that promos bashing the competition are just silly.

Your points are all correct. With that said, the reason that KNX went to a more in-depth (and "chatty") approach to news while KFWB remained "All News, All The Time" a few years back was to try to differentiate the two in order to grow new news audience and to compete with talk stations by adding longform shows in midday and weekends. That's the strategy they dropped when KNX resumed its serious presentation. So now, if one news station garners new listeners...it likely comes at the expense of the other news station...so the combined cume shows a net gain of zero. That's the reason you didn't see KBIG or KYSR adjust (as they did recently) to go head-to-head with other stations in the Clear Channel cluster.The other factor to keep in mind is that the two news stations used to achieve a combined 4 share of the market, and now achieve a combined 3 share. With that loss of audience comes a corresponding loss of revenue.

 

[davideduardo]

If you look at their ratings, and ask anyone who knows how much each stations sales have declined in the last two years, you might come to the conclusion that they're doing a pretty good job of killing them off all by themselves.

KNX was off less than 10% in 2006, after growing for several years. It's big issue is the 2007 loss of automotive and refinancing / mortgage money... one that other stations like KFWB and KFI with high end demos are feeling.

KFWB was also off abut 6% over 2005, but the baseball issue clouds the revenue picture. One of KFWB's issues is the more limited signal, which prevents it being used consistently in parts of the market... the parts where the primary, non-ethnic news listeners live.

The biggest issue here is that the market is close to 75% ethnic and immigrant, groups that use news less or not at all.

 

[flakunkel]

Your points are all correct. With that said, the reason that KNX went to a more in-depth (and "chatty") approach to news while KFWB remained "All News, All The Time" a few years back was to try to differentiate the two in order to grow new news audience and to compete with talk stations by adding longform shows in midday and weekends. That's the strategy they dropped when KNX resumed its serious presentation. So now, if one news station garners new listeners...it likely comes at the expense of the other news station...so the combined cume shows a net gain of zero.

The two stations have always been differentiated. KNX had a lower story count, generally running each story only once or at most twice an hour, with longer stories, lots of regularly-scheduled features, packaged network newscasts, play-by-play sports on weekends, and a more serious, formal writing style. KFWB traditionally used the original Group W "20-20-20" format, which runs the top stories three times an hour, uses shorter stories with a much higher story count, a less-formal writing style, no features, and no packaged network newscasts. In some ways the more recent changes actually muddled that differentiation, (features and PBP sports on KFWB, informal writing on KNX) and in ways that managed to equally upset the devotees of each without bringing anybody new into the tent. These changes are now being undone as the stations go back to what worked better for both of them.

David Eduardo's point about the ethnic composition of the market hurting the format is well-taken, but there are still a lot of dollars there if it's done correctly.

 

[LAallnews]

KFWB does not pretend to be a talk station. Never has. Their slogan is All News, All The Time and Give Us 22 Minutes, We'll Give You The World. Trying to promote against talk station KFI is absurd (although I will concede that KFI also owns the news position in LA)

I'm curious, if KFI owns the news image in LA, why wouldn't an news station like KFWB want to promote against it? That actually makes more sense to me than promoting against KNX (with a much smaller audience.) KFI has a bigger piece of the pie -- and it would stand to reason you'd have a better chance of luring some KFI listeners away.

I'm just one listener, but to me, KFWB sounds better now than it has in years. I think somebody's doing something right. I hope you're correct about the baseball going away, I never knew when I was going to get news or Dodgers.

 

[jriggenbach]

"The two stations have always been differentiated. KNX had a lower story count, generally running each story only once or at most twice an hour, with longer stories, lots of regularly-scheduled features, packaged network newscasts, play-by-play sports on weekends, and a more serious, formal writing style. KFWB traditionally used the original Group W "20-20-20" format, which runs the top stories three times an hour, uses shorter stories with a much higher story count, a less-formal writing style, no features, and no packaged network newscasts."

The words "always" and "traditionally" in this excerpt are rather asinine. KFWB adopted the "traditional" Group W "20-20-20" format in 1974. Before that, it ran hour long newscasts, just like KNX. So much for "always." Ken Draper, the PD who inaugurated the "20-20-20" format, filled it with regularly scheduled features - TV reviews by Gary Franklin, movie reviews by Chuck Walsh, book reviews by me and -briefly - Turnley Walker, art reviews by Molly Barnes, Cleve Herman's "At Large in L.A." pieces (which were later collected in a book of the same name). Charlie Brailer and I also switched off doing pieces on the LA Philharmonic and reviews of their Hollywood Bowl concerts. Carol Sobel and Wina Sturgeon did regularly scheduled consumer pieces. So much for "no features."

JR

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

The biggest issue here is that the market is close to 75% ethnic and immigrant, groups that use news less or not at all.

Why would "Ethnic and immigrant groups" not use news? ???

 

[davideduardo]

The biggest issue here is that the market is close to 75% ethnic and immigrant, groups that use news less or not at all.

Why would "Ethnic and immigrant groups" not use news? ???

Mostly due to language isues among first generation. There are some 10% of the LA population that are non-Hispanic immigrants not otherwise classified by Arbitron... big groups like the Russian community, Armenians and Persians... that would not use any English talk format. Add to that the Hispanic populaiton, 61% of which is Spanish dominant (or about 30% of the LA population) and the fact that Blacks don't index as high on news radio in LA and the 12% Asian population is an unknown, but since much of it is not english dominant, particularly in older demos, we can assume it underindexes, too. Further, most LA Hispanics are from Mexico where news radio is not "big" and never has had much of an exposure, and you have another reason; LA Hispanics are also very young (unlike NY) and under-45 is not a large source of news listeners anywhere.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

The biggest issue here is that the market is close to 75% ethnic and immigrant, groups that use news less or not at all.

75% of LA is ethnic or immigrant? I'd say 100% is ethnic.