I think Ch 13 in Stockton used to broadcast from Mt. Diablo attempting to serve both Stockton and San Francisco!
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- Thread starter Rollo-Smokes
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You are suffering from paralysis by over-analysis. Distance (and crimse statistics) doesn't make the suburb, people's perceptions do.
But not the people who actually live in Orange County (which is a point I have made in each one of these posts)?
I don't think there's any over-analysis...but I believe that perception is important.
People who live in Lancaster/Palmdale, etc think of themselves as living in the "Antelope Valley" not an LA suburb. They have their own desert climate, are 3500 ft in elevation, and refer to LA as "down below". Maps show that they are in LA County, but they feel like they're a hundred miles away! I know this because i used to work there. In Palmdale LA FM's are weak or non existent and the only reliable off-air TV is from Bakersfield.
"From Hollywood, the Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson. Of course it was taped in Burbank and he even made fun of the city in almost every monologue.
Laugh In embraced the city with Gary Owens booming baritone..."From beautiful downtown Burbank."
Let me put this all in one place, so it's easy to keep track of.
After my anecdote about what I learned from having friends in Orange County in the mid-80s and how they lived their lives and how they considered it its own thing and not a suburb of Los Angeles, you (ChannelFlipper) called that idea lunacy, and in a later post said:
Anaheim is a suburb of LA. Just as Pomona, Santa Clarita, and Thousand Oaks are. People have a hard time accepting this fact for some reason.
I suggested that whether one city is considered a suburb of another city is "kind of up to the people who live there".
BrianCraig suggested that should be left up to the Census Bureau or people who live outside the area.
I noted that the Census Bureau doesn't use the term "suburb" and then posted the Merriam-Webster definition of suburb, which, objectively, does not fit Anaheim on any single point.
So, unless I'm missing something, Flip, you and I agree that people's perceptions determine whether one city is a suburb of another, but where we differ is that I believe it's the perceptions of the people who actually live there.
After my anecdote about what I learned from having friends in Orange County in the mid-80s and how they lived their lives and how they considered it its own thing and not a suburb of Los Angeles, you (ChannelFlipper) called that idea lunacy, and in a later post said:
Anaheim is a suburb of LA. Just as Pomona, Santa Clarita, and Thousand Oaks are. People have a hard time accepting this fact for some reason.
I suggested that whether one city is considered a suburb of another city is "kind of up to the people who live there".
BrianCraig suggested that should be left up to the Census Bureau or people who live outside the area.
I noted that the Census Bureau doesn't use the term "suburb" and then posted the Merriam-Webster definition of suburb, which, objectively, does not fit Anaheim on any single point.
So, unless I'm missing something, Flip, you and I agree that people's perceptions determine whether one city is a suburb of another, but where we differ is that I believe it's the perceptions of the people who actually live there.
That was my original point. Only OC residents who have identity-complex issues care about this. To everyone else, OC is a suburb of LA.
I was born in Upland CA. when I was born, except for Foothill Blvd, there was nothing but orange groves and vineyards all around. Upland is in San Bernardino county. Has a completely different profile to LA in just about every way imaginable - including crime statistics. It is in what is now the 909 (the 714 when I was growing up).
Oh, and now, just as it was then, Upland is a suburb of LA. I don't have any identity-affliction problems over this like many OC residents seem to have.
See, Flip, I don't think that's an identity-complex issue. Upland is 15 miles closer to both Riverside and San Bernardino than it is to Los Angeles and has vastly more in common with both of the Inland Empire cities than it does with L.A.
Nor do I think residents of Orange County not seeing that they have much in common with Los Angeles is an identity-complex issue, either.
Again, pretty much all they share is radio and television and maybe the L.A. Times (do they still have an Orange County edition?). And heck---Bishop, where I grew up from age 9 to 18, had those exact same things in common with L.A.
I bet it'd be really interesting to go tell folks in Upland that they're living in an L.A. suburb. Especially when they disagree and you tell them they're wrong---that it's what people who don't live there think that matters.
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I have lived in Upland, Rancho C.,and Ontario for a combined many years. I know how they think. The vast majority of residents consider these cities to be LA suburbs. That is why I brought that community up. I like to speak of what I know.
K.M. Richards
Program Director, The Eighties Channel™
As a matter of fact, they did. The call letters KOVR were originally used to promote the station as "covering" both markets.
The problem was that they wanted to take the ABC affiliation away from KCCC-TV/40 and the network refused because their signal overlapped their own O&O KGO-TV/7. They had to move into the San Joaquin Valley to get what they wanted.
History of UHF Television
But in radio, we do not use the OMB and Bureau of the Census Metropolitan Statistical Area definitions. We use another MSA definition, Arbitron / Nielsen's Metro Survey Area.
The ratings MSAs are defined primarily by radio listening and secondarily by commute patterns. For example, the Miami and Ft Lauderdale markets in Florida and the Dallas and Ft Worth metros were separate while AM was the dominant form of radio. But when FM rose, and in both cases nearly all stations covered both metros, the local stations voted to combine markets as listening then showed total shared listening. That is not the case between DC and Baltimore as the eastern Class B FMs can't cover both markets.
Orange County, CA, used to have its own book. Later, it had an embedded book, which is simply a breakout of a larger market's book such as San Jose, which is part of the San Francisco market.
Many people look at Orange County as being San Juan Capistrano and the like. That's not the same as LA, any more than Port Hueneme is.
And none of those cities is in the LA MSA. And they are not in the Riverside-San Berdoo market, either.
K.M. Richards
Program Director, The Eighties Channel™
KBUE 105.5 still is COL Long Beach.
KLAX-FM 97.9 changed its COL back in 1997.
KJLH 102.3 changed its COL way back in 1968 (for the backstory, see this thread).
As for the rest, it's all irrelevant given that the main studio rule no longer exists.
Yes, I never got an Arbitron diary there. It is definitely a sort of a nowhere area to be sure. I still don't have any geo-identification anxiety issues.
That is a perfect example. Napa is part of the San Francisco Metro Survey Area because the majority of radio listening goes to stations "home" to SF.
Going further... or farther geographically, Santa Rosa is part of the San Francisco radio market due to listening, but nobody in Santa Rosa thinks they live in San Francisco.
Yep! I can't imagine someone from Napa or Santa Rosa saying they were from the Dumpster on the Bay.
And if you talk to nearly anyone in the OC, they do not want to be considered Angelinos.
Back in the diary days, which ended in LA and the Inland Empire 23 years ago, the chances of getting a diary are about once every 60 to 80 years.Yes, I never got an Arbitron diary there. It is definitely a sort of a nowhere area to be sure. I still don't have any geo-identification anxiety issues.
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I agree citizens are free to consider their community to be whatever they want. I’ve known people who live in Manhattan who think those on Staten Island aren’t ”true” New Yorkers.
But since suburban residents won’t all agree on a definition, those who need to define places for business or statistical reasons need a scientific/impartial source.
Therefore we have radio markets as defined by Nielsen, tv markets as defined by Nielsen etc. Progressive Grocer defined grocery markets at one time although I think they use DMAs for most stats today.
But I would say by far the most important arbitrators on this topic would be the U.S. Census Bureau and their Metropolitan Statistical Areas.
But since suburban residents won’t all agree on a definition, those who need to define places for business or statistical reasons need a scientific/impartial source.
Therefore we have radio markets as defined by Nielsen, tv markets as defined by Nielsen etc. Progressive Grocer defined grocery markets at one time although I think they use DMAs for most stats today.
But I would say by far the most important arbitrators on this topic would be the U.S. Census Bureau and their Metropolitan Statistical Areas.
…which breaks Anaheim-Santa Ana-Irvine out into a separate Metropolitan District (MD) from the Los Angeles-Long Beach MSA:
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