KLSX ....

[djpauliewog]

Klsx ratings are dropping..
is there any help in the future
looks like frosty ,and leykis so called big ratings isn't helping
lets be honest without howard stern this station is a disaster
especially if you let tim conway jr anchor his "conway and whitman show"when whitman is a much better and funnier...
Jack Silver the Zenmaster of radio.....who knew

 

[KMRichards]

Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> Klsx ratings are dropping..

Not in their target demo of 18-34, where their ratings fluctuation is within the margin of error.

> is there any help in the future
> looks like frosty ,and leykis so called big ratings isn't
> helping

Both the 10am-3pm and 3-7pm ratings (18-34) are about where they were at this time last year.

> lets be honest without howard stern this station is a
> disaster

Let's be honest. Club DJs who try to psychoanalyze stations, based on 12+ ratings that don't even show dayparts, are a disaster.

It should also be pointed out that two of the three months in this ratings period were November and December, when Howard was still on. And yes, the 18-34 ratings for 6-10am were consistent with the average over all of 2005, even with one month of Adam Carolla in there.

> especially if you let tim conway jr anchor his "conway and
> whitman show"when whitman is a much better and funnier...

The 7p-Mid ratings in 18-34 have gone up over the past six months.

> Jack Silver the Zenmaster of radio.....who knew

Apparently he knows more than a certain club DJ.

Let me say it, yet again:

<font size=+1>12+ RATINGS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.
THAT'S WHY ARBITRON GIVES THAT INFORMATION AWAY.</font><P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[asap]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> 12+ RATINGS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.
> THAT'S WHY ARBITRON GIVES THAT INFORMATION AWAY.

Actually they do MEAN something. It represents TOTAL
listening 12+. It's just that Agencies don't choose that demo
when buying ad time.

They're arguably the most accurate numbers in the Arbitron book, because 12+ comprises the largest sample.

But, to say they don't MEAN anything is false.

 

[KMRichards]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> They're arguably the most accurate numbers in the Arbitron
> book, because 12+ comprises the largest sample.
>
> But, to say they don't MEAN anything is false.

Point taken. I will rephrase.

12+ numbers are not valid for measurement of the success or failure of a particular station. Only the ratings for the target demographic are.

To make a statement, as the polliwog did, that KLSX is failing, based upon 12+ numbers, is fallacious. Even more so when claiming specific dayparts are down based upon Mon-Sun 6a-Mid 12+ numbers.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[asap]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> > They're arguably the most accurate numbers in the Arbitron
>
> > book, because 12+ comprises the largest sample.
> >
> > But, to say they don't MEAN anything is false.
>
> Point taken. I will rephrase.
>
> 12+ numbers are not valid for measurement of the success or
> failure of a particular station. Only the ratings for the
> target demographic are.
>
> To make a statement, as the polliwog did, that KLSX is
> failing, based upon 12+ numbers, is fallacious. Even more
> so when claiming specific dayparts are down based upon
> Mon-Sun 6a-Mid 12+ numbers.
>

Exactly. Success has to be judged by the "saleable" demos.
Did K-Earth bump up 25-54?

 

[KMRichards]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> Did K-Earth bump up 25-54?

Not by enough to be significant (well within wobble factor). But, if you are looking at evidence of Jhani's influence, bear in mind that only one month of this trend was after he got there.
<P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> > > They're arguably the most accurate numbers in the
> Arbitron
> >
> > > book, because 12+ comprises the largest sample.
> > >
> > > But, to say they don't MEAN anything is false.
> >
> > Point taken. I will rephrase.
> >
> > 12+ numbers are not valid for measurement of the success
> or
> > failure of a particular station. Only the ratings for the
>
> > target demographic are.
> >
> > To make a statement, as the polliwog did, that KLSX is
> > failing, based upon 12+ numbers, is fallacious. Even more
>
> > so when claiming specific dayparts are down based upon
> > Mon-Sun 6a-Mid 12+ numbers.
> >
>
> Exactly. Success has to be judged by the "saleable" demos.
> Did K-Earth bump up 25-54?

No. January was off about in 25-54 40% from the Nov and Dec numbers, and cume was off about 18% from November.

The problem with 12+ is that it often masks defects in a station, such as ageing demos, too-young demos, or loss of target focus.

For example, a station like KLVE is targeted at 18+ women. A 12+ increase might look nice, but if the station got to hard, and lost women and gained men there woud be a disaster.
>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> > 12+ RATINGS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.
> > THAT'S WHY ARBITRON GIVES THAT INFORMATION AWAY.
>
> Actually they do MEAN something. It represents TOTAL
> listening 12+. It's just that Agencies don't choose that
> demo
> when buying ad time.
>
> They're arguably the most accurate numbers in the Arbitron
> book, because 12+ comprises the largest sample.

The numbers are not necessarily more accurate. They just represent the entire univers. However, they can mask huge sampling swings in discreet demos, so often the big numbers hide serious defects in the component parts.
>
> But, to say they don't MEAN anything is false.
>

For sales, they mean nothing. No one uses 12+, and programmers immediately go to the target, not 12+.

 

[KMRichards]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> > Did K-Earth bump up 25-54?
>
> No. January was off about in 25-54 40% from the Nov and Dec
> numbers, and cume was off about 18% from November.

Oops. I read the wrong row when I answered the same question. David is correct. But my statement about it being too soon to see an impact from Jhani Kaye's arrival would still be valid.

> The problem with 12+ is that it often masks defects in a
> station, such as ageing demos, too-young demos, or loss of
> target focus.

Another good reason to not make proclamations about a station's success or failure based on the 12+ numbers.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> > > Did K-Earth bump up 25-54?
> >
> > No. January was off about in 25-54 40% from the Nov and
> Dec
> > numbers, and cume was off about 18% from November.
>
> Oops. I read the wrong row when I answered the same
> question. David is correct. But my statement about it
> being too soon to see an impact from Jhani Kaye's arrival
> would still be valid.

Absolutely. A change in a station like that will take time, as it has to create a "new" image among the listeners it needs to attract, many of whom believe it plays only dinosaurs.
>
> > The problem with 12+ is that it often masks defects in a
> > station, such as ageing demos, too-young demos, or loss of
>
> > target focus.
>
> Another good reason to not make proclamations about a
> station's success or failure based on the 12+ numbers.
>

 

[mostb1]

KLSX IS a disaster - no denying it

> > Klsx ratings are dropping..
>
> Not in their target demo of 18-34, where their ratings
> fluctuation is within the margin of error.

Not true. KLSX morning numbers including 18-34 and 25-54 are absolutely pathetic and not saleable. They are having to GIVE away most of their AM drive spots for FREE (that is why they call it FREE FM right?) just to make it sound as if they have paying clients. It is THE lowest rated morning show of all the full market FM's in L.A. And to boot a huge multi-million dollar tv and outdoor campaign was launched PRIOR to (and continues to this day) these extrapolated numbers included in the link below. Deny that...

Link removed by moderator as a violation of Radio-Info rules regarding posting of ratings. A link to an article quoting ratings is as much a violation as posting the numbers directly.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by KMRichards on 02/28/06 06:06 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[asap]

Re: Wrong on ABSOLUTELY ALL COUNTS.

> > Did K-Earth bump up 25-54?
>
> Not by enough to be significant (well within wobble factor).
> But, if you are looking at evidence of Jhani's influence,
> bear in mind that only one month of this trend was after he
> got there.
>
Not Jhani's influence, but that they added a lot of 70s music over the last four months.

 

[KMRichards]

Re: KLSX IS a disaster - no denying it

> > > Klsx ratings are dropping..
> >
> > Not in their target demo of 18-34, where their ratings
> > fluctuation is within the margin of error.
>
> Not true. KLSX morning numbers including 18-34 and 25-54 are
> absolutely pathetic and not saleable.

Excuse me, but I was rebutting the tadpole's statement that KLSX's ratings (not the monthlies, but the ratings trends) are dropping. Whether or not those numbers are saleable was not part of the original statement or my rebuttal.

> They are having to GIVE away most of their AM drive spots for FREE (that is why
> they call it FREE FM right?) just to make it sound as if they have paying
> clients.

Attribution for the above would enhance your credibility.

> It is THE lowest rated morning show of all the full market FM's in L.A.

Not true. In 18-34, the Mon-Fri 6-10am trends for KOST, KBIG, KKBT, KCBS, KYSR, KRTH, KTWV, KLOS, KZLA, and KMZT are lower than KLSX. Among English language full-market FMs, only KPWR, KROQ, and KIIS are higher than KLSX.

I will grant you that looking at Carolla's first month at KLSX, the numbers dropped from Stern. But he is still higher for January in-demo than KRTH, KTWV, and KZLA.

> And to boot a huge multi-million dollar tv and outdoor campaign was launched
> PRIOR to (and continues to this day) these extrapolated numbers included in
> the link below. Deny that...

First, I would like to point out that including a link that includes ratings numbers is not allowed under Radio-Info rules.

Second, I don't think anyone expected that Carolla would keep all of Stern's audience. Carolla has to build a new audience, which is a damned good reason to launch a marketing campaign.

Therefore, no denial should be expected. However, as I am sure you know (but appear unwilling to admit) no one at KLSX is going ballistic over the first month's Carolla ratings. Now, if the numbers are still dismal after six months or a year, there should be cause for consternation.

Exaggerated hysteria over low ratings for a brand new morning show is very unprofessional.<P ID="signature">______________


</P>

 

[mostb1]

Re: KLSX IS a disaster - no denying it

> > > > Klsx ratings are dropping..
> > >
> > > Not in their target demo of 18-34, where their ratings
> > > fluctuation is within the margin of error.
> >
> > Not true. KLSX morning numbers including 18-34 and 25-54
> are
> > absolutely pathetic and not saleable.
>
> Excuse me, but I was rebutting the tadpole's statement that
> KLSX's ratings (not the monthlies, but the ratings trends)
> are dropping. Whether or not those numbers are saleable was
> not part of the original statement or my rebuttal.

We are comparing Stern KLSX to Stern-less KLSX. No one discussing any post-Stern station on any message board or any article in the media (today) is doing anything but that. And when we look at trends, we look at extraps. Any (good) media buyer or radio executive does exactly the same especially in this case of such a major change.

>
> > They are having to GIVE away most of their AM drive spots
> for FREE (that is why
> > they call it FREE FM right?) just to make it sound as if
> they have paying
> > clients.
>
> Attribution for the above would enhance your credibility.

Why don't you subscribe to InsideRadio? They've already sent the story in their hot fax. Media buyers, among others, in Los Angeles are certainly aware of it. It looks like you need to get to know more industry people so you can learn more about what is going on in Los Angeles radio.

> > It is THE lowest rated morning show of all the full market
> FM's in L.A.

>
> Not true. In 18-34, the Mon-Fri 6-10am trends for KOST,
> KBIG, KKBT, KCBS, KYSR, KRTH, KTWV, KLOS, KZLA, and KMZT are
> lower than KLSX. Among English language full-market FMs,
> only KPWR, KROQ, and KIIS are higher than KLSX.

It would be nice if you could read correctly. My statement and R&R's story - still on StreetTalk today - stands as correct. So your "Not True" spin is NOT correct. KLSX is the LOWEST rated full market signal FM station in mornings in the extraps for January in Los Angeles by Arbitron. Period.

>
> I will grant you that looking at Carolla's first month at
> KLSX, the numbers dropped from Stern. But he is still
> higher for January in-demo than KRTH, KTWV, and KZLA.

What domo?

>
> > And to boot a huge multi-million dollar tv and outdoor
> campaign was launched
> > PRIOR to (and continues to this day) these extrapolated
> numbers included in
> > the link below. Deny that...
>
> First, I would like to point out that including a link that
> includes ratings numbers is not allowed under Radio-Info
> rules.

Thank R&R for providing the truth IN PRINT. More so than I can say about what you've posted.

> Second, I don't think anyone expected that Carolla would
> keep all of Stern's audience. Carolla has to build a new
> audience, which is a damned good reason to launch a
> marketing campaign.

Which didn't pay off even for sampling. So it was a COMPLETE failure. This may go down as the worst marketing campaign in the history of Los Angeles radio. Paul Rodriguez, Patty Lotz and Tim Kelly, move over.

>
> Therefore, no denial should be expected. However, as I am
> sure you know (but appear unwilling to admit) no one at KLSX
> is going ballistic over the first month's Carolla ratings.

You are wrong. They were not expecting a loss as dramatic as this. Obvisouly, you don't know anyone there or you wouldn't have posted such an incorrect statement.

> Now, if the numbers are still dismal after six months or a
> year, there should be cause for consternation.
>
> Exaggerated hysteria over low ratings for a brand new
> morning show is very unprofessional.

This is the kind of statement only made by people looking into windows of radio stations.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: KLSX IS a disaster - no denying it

> We are comparing Stern KLSX to Stern-less KLSX. No one
> discussing any post-Stern station on any message board or
> any article in the media (today) is doing anything but that.

This is a "new media" vs. "old media" frenzy. There is no way a brand new talk based morning show is going to achieve the same momentum as an established, branded and passion-driven show it replaces.

The answers will be had in 6 to 9 months minimum. They may be bad, or surprise us. But using January extraps in LA is absurd.

> And when we look at trends, we look at extraps.

Most peoople do not do extraps. They look at trends. A trend is not an extrap. A trend has as many interviews as a book, just with less weighting and fewer tables.

> Any (good)
> media buyer or radio executive does exactly the same
> especially in this case of such a major change.

Media buyers do not generally look at single month extraps (a redundant term, to be sure) since they do not come from Arbitron. Second, most agencies buy multi-book averages. Third, most buys are short-term these days, so they can always look at new data when new books come out. Agencies often hold buying when there is a format change, but not generally when there are wobbles in a monthly extrap.

In this new trend, it is unlikely that anyone is going to make any trend based decisions until the full book comes out. This is because this is the book where langage weighting will be implemented and where ethnicity is asked at the respondent level in the diary, and not at the family level in the diary as before. There is going to be a significant cha nge, already seen in the first trend, in the balance between Spanish dominant Hispanics and the rest of the market.

> > Attribution for the above would enhance your credibility.
>
> Why don't you subscribe to InsideRadio? They've already sent
> the story in their hot fax. Media buyers, among others, in
> Los Angeles are certainly aware of it. It looks like you
> need to get to know more industry people so you can learn
> more about what is going on in Los Angeles radio.

There is no report of "giving away spots" even from other sellers in the market. So, there is no attribution for your statement.
>
> It would be nice if you could read correctly. My statement
> and R&R's story - still on StreetTalk today - stands as
> correct. So your "Not True" spin is NOT correct. KLSX is the
> LOWEST rated full market signal FM station in mornings in
> the extraps for January in Los Angeles by Arbitron. Period.

Arbitron does not do extraps. The only real data we have is Nov-Dec-Jan. Arbitron does not issue extraps, so any extraps are guesses based on missing-variable math, not real numbers.
> >
> > Exaggerated hysteria over low ratings for a brand new
> > morning show is very unprofessional.
>
> This is the kind of statement only made by people looking
> into windows of radio stations.

I don't think, given the changes in measurement in LA and the nation, that anyone expected a rocket lift-off. If they were, I want to know what they were smoking.
>

 

[mostb1]

Re: KLSX IS a disaster - no denying it

> > We are comparing Stern KLSX to Stern-less KLSX. No one
> > discussing any post-Stern station on any message board or
> > any article in the media (today) is doing anything but
> that.
>
> This is a "new media" vs. "old media" frenzy. There is no
> way a brand new talk based morning show is going to achieve
> the same momentum as an established, branded and
> passion-driven show it replaces.
>
> The answers will be had in 6 to 9 months minimum. They may
> be bad, or surprise us. But using January extraps in LA is
> absurd.

No, it isn't absurd. It is a reflection of reality of how Howard Stern listeners have abandoned KLSX in the morning in droves even more so than anticipated. Instant ratings/trend/extrap data is expected in this case as seen in the stories being written about Stern.

>
> > And when we look at trends, we look at extraps.
>
> Most peoople do not do extraps. They look at trends. A trend
> is not an extrap. A trend has as many interviews as a book,
> just with less weighting and fewer tables.
>
> > Any (good)
> > media buyer or radio executive does exactly the same
> > especially in this case of such a major change.
>
> Media buyers do not generally look at single month extraps
> (a redundant term, to be sure) since they do not come from
> Arbitron. Second, most agencies buy multi-book averages.
> Third, most buys are short-term these days, so they can
> always look at new data when new books come out. Agencies
> often hold buying when there is a format change, but not
> generally when there are wobbles in a monthly extrap.

The Stern-less KLSX situation isn't considered a "wobble", it's considered where KLSX is now. And that's in the dumps for mornings.

The New York City press is all over the extraps. And the agencies have chimed in as well. I suggest you go and read them.

>
> In this new trend, it is unlikely that anyone is going to
> make any trend based decisions until the full book comes
> out. This is because this is the book where langage
> weighting will be implemented and where ethnicity is asked
> at the respondent level in the diary, and not at the family
> level in the diary as before. There is going to be a
> significant cha nge, already seen in the first trend, in the
> balance between Spanish dominant Hispanics and the rest of
> the market.

Tell me that nonsense when it's a 10% drop, not 60-70%.

CBS Radio just wrapped up doing call out research on all their new morning shows. So decisions are based on the first month.

>
> > > Attribution for the above would enhance your
> credibility.
> >
> > Why don't you subscribe to InsideRadio? They've already
> sent
> > the story in their hot fax. Media buyers, among others, in
>
> > Los Angeles are certainly aware of it. It looks like you
> > need to get to know more industry people so you can learn
> > more about what is going on in Los Angeles radio.
>
> There is no report of "giving away spots" even from other
> sellers in the market. So, there is no attribution for your
> statement.

Wrong. You also need to get an InsideRadio subscription. It's quite absurd to see you post this since it is not only known but been published by Inside Radio. Some of us do have close connections to KLSX buys,

> >
> > It would be nice if you could read correctly. My statement
>
> > and R&R's story - still on StreetTalk today - stands as
> > correct. So your "Not True" spin is NOT correct. KLSX is
> the
> > LOWEST rated full market signal FM station in mornings in
> > the extraps for January in Los Angeles by Arbitron.
> Period.
>
> Arbitron does not do extraps. The only real data we have is
> Nov-Dec-Jan. Arbitron does not issue extraps, so any extraps
> are guesses based on missing-variable math, not real
> numbers.

The data is culled from Arbitron. And, just as you quote them so many times here, they have been right on the money time after time.

There are many special studies being done on post-Stern stations. This is exceptional. And, so far, they all look terrible for CBS radio.


> > >
> > > Exaggerated hysteria over low ratings for a brand new
> > > morning show is very unprofessional.
> >
> > This is the kind of statement only made by people looking
> > into windows of radio stations.
>
> I don't think, given the changes in measurement in LA and
> the nation, that anyone expected a rocket lift-off. If they
> were, I want to know what they were smoking.
> >
>

Rocket lift-off? No one at CBS Radio expected the results to be as BAD as they now are.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Arbitron does not provide extraps or monthlies in trend reports

> >
> > The answers will be had in 6 to 9 months minimum. They may
>
> > be bad, or surprise us. But using January extraps in LA is
>
> > absurd.
>
> No, it isn't absurd. It is a reflection of reality of how
> Howard Stern listeners have abandoned KLSX in the morning in
> droves even more so than anticipated. Instant
> ratings/trend/extrap data is expected in this case as seen
> in the stories being written about Stern.

Extraps represent, at best, highly suspect data under the best of situations. But since January was the start of respondent level ethnic determination from the diary as well as the start of language weighting in a market that is 42% Hispanic and 65% Spanish dominant, all bets are off.

A January extrap is a matematical derivitive based on known months from a past survey and an unknwn one in the new survey. There is different weigting, and each month is not a balanced sample and has never been sold as that.

KLSX is off. Stern is gone. We knew intuitatively that the station would come down a lot, and that it would take a year or so to build Free FM... just like all new talkers in the past. So the January extraps are meaningless old news.
>
> The Stern-less KLSX situation isn't considered a "wobble",
> it's considered where KLSX is now. And that's in the dumps
> for mornings.

Based on one month of a "new format?" Again, everyone knew ther eould be a big drop. CBS knew it was putting on new talent in big markets, and there owuld be attrition and fallout. But they seem commited to the format, which is a good, not a bad, thing.
>
> The New York City press is all over the extraps. And the
> agencies have chimed in as well. I suggest you go and read
> them.

Fortunately, those who know better do not make decisions based on single-month extraps. As I said, this is about Stern and new media, and has nothing to do with the reality of radio and the diary metod measurement of it.
>
> Tell me that nonsense when it's a 10% drop, not 60-70%.

The data is not trustworthy. We knew, for the third time, that any Stern replacement would take time. I usually give personality morning shows a year or so. You are giving them 4 weeks. Bizaarre. Anything, both good and bad, can happen. But it will not play out for months and monts and months.

> CBS Radio just wrapped up doing call out research on all
> their new morning shows. So decisions are based on the first
> month.

We all do call out research on a regular... sometimes weekly... basis. So what? All they did by doing January or February research was get a benchmark of the starting point, and perhps pick up some perceptual issues worth working on.
> >
> > There is no report of "giving away spots" even from other
> > sellers in the market. So, there is no attribution for
> your
> > statement.
>
> Wrong. You also need to get an InsideRadio subscription.

I have been an Inside Radio subscriber and contributer since it began. Thanks for the sales pitch. I am sure Tom taylor appreciates it too.

> It's quite absurd to see you post this since it is not only
> known but been published by Inside Radio. Some of us do have
> close connections to KLSX buys,

Some of us have close connections to LA media, including sales. KLSX is being priced like a startup, and that is what they are.
> >
> > Arbitron does not do extraps. The only real data we have
> is
> > Nov-Dec-Jan. Arbitron does not issue extraps, so any
> extraps
> > are guesses based on missing-variable math, not real
> > numbers.
>
> The data is culled from Arbitron.

There is no monthly data for January anywhere in the latest trends, so you can not cull something that does not exist. An extrap is a math formula that tries to answer an unknown variable in an equation, but does not take into account that the data crosses two survey periods and is very volatile.

> And, just as you quote
> them so many times here, they have been right on the money
> time after time.

No, they are not anywhere near the real numbers in 80% of the time. I use multiple month extraps to identify issues, but would never, ever make a decision on a single extrap. We have other systems for listener level reporting, anyway.
>
> There are many special studies being done on post-Stern
> stations. This is exceptional. And, so far, they all look
> terrible for CBS radio.

What do you expect? It took KFI nearly a decade to beat KABC. It will take many books to rebuild KLSX. Nobody denies that. One month out is not when you do anything but establish a benchmark.
>
> Rocket lift-off? No one at CBS Radio expected the results to
> be as BAD as they now are.

Oh, I think they zero-based mornings. they had to, given the fact that they were bringing in talent with literally no raido experience.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Arbitron notifies press... about extraps

> But using January extraps in LA is absurd.
>
> No, it isn't absurd. It is a reflection of reality

This must be why Arbitron today issued a disclaimer saying anyone doing extraps does so at thier own risk and that Arbitron itself does not issue or condone the use of extraps as they are not a proportional slice of a book.

Arbitron is asking not to be identified in the context of extraps as they feel such use is dangerous and is, further, not sanctioned by Arbitron.

 

[robnokshus]

Re: KLSX The only thing missing from your post...

...was the "Baba Booey"


> No, it isn't absurd. It is a reflection of reality of how
> Howard Stern listeners have abandoned KLSX in the morning in
> droves even more so than anticipated. Instant
> ratings/trend/extrap data is expected in this case as seen
> in the stories being written about Stern.

 

[KMRichards]

Re: Arbitron notifies press... about extraps

> This must be why Arbitron today issued a disclaimer saying
> anyone doing extraps does so at thier own risk and that
> Arbitron itself does not issue or condone the use of extraps
> as they are not a proportional slice of a book.

I suppose that same warning would unofficially reply to contentious posters who use extraps to "prove" their points ...<P ID="signature">______________


</P>