KMCQ signed on sometime today

[FMSteve]

Their Covington CP disappears after September 20. In early August they requested permission to remain silent at their The Dalles site. Assume an Application for License within the next few days if not already, stating that they have completed "equipment tests".

The 60dBu contour does cover Seattle proper and the Eastside, at least on paper.

This is fun. I'm with Boss Bill and the Purple Coyote. And Sam, too. Most of it. If somene could go up SR-410 and take a left on Forest Service Road 209, take a left on the dirt road up to the top, then we could see what's happening. My guess is there is a bunch of leased equipment with trailer hitches. I heard the old KBRD tower is still up there. True? In the construction permit, the antenna height above ground is only 65 feet or 20 meters. A little bird told me the KBRD tower is 80 feet high.

With the C2 app still outstanding, it makes sense to have the app. run it's course. To do so, however, could mean that Canada's new 104.1 might be more of a rim shot into Vancouver than a frontal assult into the city. It's probably going to end up a political problem more than an engineering one, in my opinion.

 

[Bongwater]

IF the C-2 is dead, someone should tell the FCC. The C-2 application is still pending. Bustos is the unit that will program 104.5. You say things are down. I say they are UP. Time will tell.

Regardless of who owns this damn mess and whatever, I figured Bustos might have something in it. Or might be able to do something with it eventually.

But I'm just a spectator, the kind who gets a sick thrill in bloody wrecks like these.

Now that 103.9 is dead in Forks, it's going to take some serious international horse trading to get CHHR (Vancouver's 104.1) to move to 103.9 and KAFE to 104.1, all to benefit KMCQ (sorry KMTT, but I think you're gonna need some translators up here pretty soon.) And since Canada is in the process of vacating AM, like the US probably will sooner or later, it's going to be harder than it looks. There honestly just isn't enough room for everybody up here with the signal coverage they're expecting. Seattle FM frequencies, once heard loud and clear up the coast and now being picked off one by one by the Canadians.

After DTV becomes the permanent thing in February, I think it's time to go into serious hyperoverdrive in expanding the FM band down to 76 MHz (which is the Japanese FM band) in North America because seriously, even sardine cans have their limits.

It can be done....carefully....

 

[radiofreqk1]

The old KBRD - 103.9 was on Three Sisters ( 47-07-02 N by 121-53-30 W ) and not on Radio Hill ( 47-11-13 N by 122-06-35 W). Radio Hill is an old two-way site.

 

[radiojjh]

Well---since I was in Seattle for the weekend---thought i'd check out KMCQ/104.5...first thing--the signal is horrible around Sammamish and Issaquah where I stayed--pretty spotty around Seattle and Bellevue and even in Renton....and it IS just not as loud as the other stations, i had to keep turning the volume up to listen to it......the music mix isn't that much different than you'd hear on KJR-FM with a little touch of JACK-FM to it. The music is tolerable, but the imaging SUCKS. You only get one chance to make a good first impression and I wasn't impressed at all to say the least. I did hear a couple of Neil Diamond songs that were nice to hear again. The signal did get better around Auburn(went to Emerald Downs with a buddy and then to the Muckleshoot Casino for a bit), but many times when I hit the scan button on my nice factory car stereo in my Toyota Solara, it didn't even stop at 104.5. So, if you're not gonna come in on car stereo's---then you can pretty much kiss any in-home or in office listening goodbye.....and this day in time, that simply doesn't fly...if they would do great stuff from the 60's and 70's...they could carve a little niche for themselves.....BUT...and as always there IS a but....

So---I'd say unless KAFE-FM moves, and they can upgrade....they won't be much of a player...no more then Olympia's/96.1 or KNBQ/102.9, or the other rimshot FM's. So---there's my perspective on the "new 104.5."



JJHemingway Your Spokane..and former Seattle Radio Pal.....

ps---I really do miss being on the air in Seattle......those were good days!!

 

[mightymoose]

Oh God I love all the speculation. No one has mentioned that the economy may have been good when this whole enterprise was begun but is now most certainly on it's butt. Hard to imagine people lining up to by a marginal FM signal now. I'll be interested to see how it unfolds.

 

[e-dawg]

I think they should work out with CTRC moving 104.1 CHRR Vancouer to 104.3 and move 104.3 KAFE to 104.1.

Canada allows 3rd ajacent channels while US don't so technically 104.1 can move to 104.3 without any interference with 104.9 CKCL-FM2.

 

[AAllen]

If somene could go up SR-410 and take a left on Forest Service Road 209, take a left on the dirt road up to the top, then we could see what's happening. My guess is there is a bunch of leased equipment with trailer hitches. In the construction permit, the antenna height above ground is only 65 feet or 20 meters.

I hiked up there today. They have propane tanks, not deisel. Otherwise things were as predicted, with the transmitter building still on wheels and blocks. I didn't see any microwave antennas or a ground link, so it appears the entire operation is self-contained and the programming is coming from right there at the transmitter. A couple of weeks ago I heard them play The Kingsmen's "Louie, Louie," followed by the 1970s song "Brother Louie." I had thought they did that on purpose, but now I'm not so sure. And then as I was hiking down, I heard them play EAS tones at 1:01.

http://home.earthlink.net/~arthurallen/100_7633.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~arthurallen/100_7634.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~arthurallen/100_7635.JPG

 

[radiojjh]

hey---thanks for the pics.....so it's all an operation right there...the whole she-bang....obviously overhead is fairly low.....if you hear some spots for a propane place....you know that's gotta be a trade....nothing like ol' "tradio," eh? gee---can't wait to meet their receptionist......oh, i forgot---they don't have one, do they???

 

[w9wi]

I think they should work out with CTRC moving 104.1 CHRR Vancouer to 104.3 and move 104.3 KAFE to 104.1.

Canada allows 3rd ajacent channels while US don't so technically 104.1 can move to 104.3 without any interference with 104.9 CKCL-FM2.

The problem with CHHR on 104.3 is CJJR. 104.3-10.6=93.7, CJJR's channel.

FCC regulation 73.207(b)(1) (Table A) requires Class C stations on frequencies separated by 10.6 or 10.8MHz to be at least 48km (30 miles) apart. CHHR and CJJR are co-located. (of course, FCC 73.207 doesn't apply in Canada, but I strongly suspect Canada has a similar regulation, and even if they don't they may well refuse to agree to move CHHR on the same technical grounds anyway.)

The "intermediate frequency amplifier" in almost all FM radios operates at 10.7MHz. If two co-located stations operate on frequencies 10.6 or 10.8MHz apart, their signals can mix and generate an "intermediate frequency" signal. Anyone near the site would hear a mix of both stations on every FM frequency across the dial.
_________________________________________________
CHHR on 103.9 won't work because of CHQM 103.5. Canada allows 3rd-adjacents, but not second-adjacents, at least not at full power. (they do allow it for LPFM but I don't see CHHR agreeing to be downgraded from Class C1 to LPFM!) I wonder if KAFE could move to 103.9?
_________________________________________________
An expanded 76-88MHz band isn't going to do a whole lot of good here. If the FCC approved an expansion tomorrow, it would be at least a decade before enough people had compatible radios to make it practical to operate a commercial station in that spectrum. Neither KAFE nor CHHR is going to agree to move to 79.3MHz, and if KMCQ does they're going to be wasting a LOT of electricity before they start making any revenue.

In any case, I believe the 76-88MHz expansion idea is DOA. It's too late. TV stations have spent too much $$ building DTV facilities on channels 5 and 6, in markets like San Antonio, Nashville, Memphis, Albany, and Philadelphia. If this idea had come up even two years ago it might have flown. Not now.

 

[fybush]

Two quick thoughts on this very interesting discussion:

1. KMCQ is required to have a main studio capable of originating programming, open during regular business hours, staffed by at least two management employees and housing a public file. Where is it? (In fairness, this requirement may not kick in while they remain licensed in The Dalles and operating under the CP from Enumclaw.)

2. Somewhere upthread, someone pointed out that First could have taken another route that would have been more expensive in the short run, but probably less expensive in the long run. That would have involved buying KAFE outright and moving that license from Bellingham (where it's one of, what, seven services to that community) to Covington (as first local service). First would probably have had to downgrade KMCQ, but it could likely have remained in The Dalles at a lower class (and possibly a different channel - 104.3?) And KMIH would still have had to move. Would it have been worth the cost?

 

[FMSteve]

Ok, why can't KAFE pull back with a directional antenna away from Seattle on an Azimuth of 156.41 degrees Southeast towards Cougar (137.616 km to KJR tower), on the order of maybe 50% of power to allow the KAFE 54 dbu signal to arrive at around South Everett/Mukilteo Speedway. KMCQ's 60 dbu signal could then meet up to that curve (1st adjacency).

In effect, they would downgrade effectively to a C2 just in that direction. Saga was perfectly willing to install a directional antenna northbound in their application for 104.1. Just try to leave their 60 dbu fall off around the Skagit Valley towns as those areas are of dominate influence. So they lose North Seattle and Lynnwood. But then look at what KMCQ gains in the bedroom communities of Lynnwood, Edmonds, Mill Creek, and so on.

I think they should do this. And get up to Cougar. This is contour to contour, not necessarily using the spacing tables. If we use the spacing tables, then C2 to C2 would fit, if I am reading the tables correctly.

Scott, or anyone else, could that work?

 

[fybush]

Ok, why can't KAFE pull back with a directional antenna away from Seattle on an Azimuth of 156.41 degrees Southeast towards Cougar (137.616 km to KJR tower), on the order of maybe 50% of power to allow the KAFE 54 dbu signal to arrive at around South Everett/Mukilteo Speedway. KMCQ's 60 dbu signal could then meet up to that curve (1st adjacency).

I think they should do this. And get up to Cougar. This is contour to contour, not necessarily using the spacing tables. If we use the spacing tables, then C2 to C2 would fit, if I am reading the tables correctly.

Scott, or anyone else, could that work?

With the caveat that it's pretty darned late here in the Eastern Time Zone...

Full spacing for a pair of first-adjacent C2s is 130 km, so if First could afford to pay Saga whatever it would take to get KAFE downgraded to a C2, KAFE and KMCQ could indeed operate as non-directional C2s, with KMCQ at Cougar.

For that matter, it's 180 km from KAFE to the present KMCQ site at Radio Hill. That's within full spacing (177 km) for first-adjacent C1s, which would be a much less painful downgrade for KAFE, or for first-adjacent C2 to C0. (But read on, because other factors would make it almost impossible to make KMCQ a C1 from any Seattle-area site.)

To go directional, you'd have to show that there exists a set of "allocation coordinates" (buildable in theory, so not in a national park or over water) that would be fully spaced - and then there are complex rules about how deep your directional notches can go, which limits just how much ground you can gain with DAs. For instance, you couldn't do C2-C1 between Cougar and the present KAFE site. You might be able to do C2-C between Radio Hill and KAFE, which would at least give KMCQ a bit of a path for an upgrade from the present C3, though it would still be far from a full-market signal.

Additional complications: Saga was willing to take a DA notch northward from KAFE because that notch fell over Canada, where its signal was going to end up getting limited by new Canadian allocations sooner or later. I would have to imagine it would take a lot more per$ua$ion to get KAFE to give up its big signal to the south, and a drop to C1 or C2 would be a pretty significant loss of southern coverage.

And there are two more stations with semi-critical spacing issues - any upgrade to KMCQ has to protect Centralia on 104.3 and Funky Monkey on 104.9, and the spacings there all but rule out anything much more than a C2 from either Radio Hill or Cougar for KMCQ unless First sinks even more money into more moves. (Complicated ones, too, because now you're looking at spacings to Portland on 104.1, Aberdeen on 104.7, KMTT on 103.7, and on and on it goes.)

It's not a pretty picture. First still has some options, but they're not great ones by any means. I know what I'd probably do if I were in First's shoes right now, but they're not paying me to tell them...

 

[semoochie]

104.1 in Portland is not a problem as long as it stays at Stonehenge or doesn't otherwise become a full Class C. From its present site, even 100kw is within the bounds of a C0 and it's currently a C2.

 

[w9wi]

Ok, why can't KAFE pull back with a directional antenna away from Seattle on an Azimuth of 156.41 degrees Southeast towards Cougar (137.616 km to KJR tower), on the order of maybe 50% of power to allow the KAFE 54 dbu signal to arrive at around South Everett/Mukilteo Speedway. KMCQ's 60 dbu signal could then meet up to that curve (1st adjacency).

In effect, they would downgrade effectively to a C2 just in that direction. Saga was perfectly willing to install a directional antenna northbound in their application for 104.1. Just try to leave their 60 dbu fall off around the Skagit Valley towns as those areas are of dominate influence. So they lose North Seattle and Lynnwood. But then look at what KMCQ gains in the bedroom communities of Lynnwood, Edmonds, Mill Creek, and so on.

I think they should do this. And get up to Cougar. This is contour to contour, not necessarily using the spacing tables. If we use the spacing tables, then C2 to C2 would fit, if I am reading the tables correctly.

Scott, or anyone else, could that work?

As Scott says, if you downgraded KAFE to C2 it would fit. But you can't downgrade to C2 on only one heading and claim C2 spacing -- you have to downgrade all the way around. It's just the way the rules work. 73.215(e) controls: a C2 and a C on adjacent channels must be at least 176km apart regardless of how close their contours come to overlapping, no matter how directional either station is. Two "real" C2's - C2 all the way around - need be only 130km apart, as Scott says.

Why do the rules work that way when obviously the FCC doesn't really believe you need 176km spacing between 50kw stations on adjacent channels? Good question. My guess is they don't like the mess directional antennas have made of the AM band, and they're trying **really hard** to discourage the scourge of DAs from spreading too far on FM. But that's just a guess.

 

[FMSteve]

So, if I am reading this correctly, then both stations would need to be C2, as C2 to C2 spacing fits in real nice as Cougar to KAFE is 136 Km. And the idea of simply downgrading KAFE but upgrading KMCQ in Enumclaw won't work because of all the other stations down South such as KFNK and Centralia 104.3 would get clobbered by a larger signal in Enumclaw.

So, it still looks like a C2 to C2 is the only thing left in play here.

One more thing. "If" Clear Channel/Ackerley is the buyer, then they could downgrade KFNK and their Centralia station at 104.3 and go higher power in Enumclaw. But, not too likely. That is, of course, and intriging possibility.

 

[semoochie]

Why would the FCC care about the number of FM stations with directional patterns? As I understand the situation, all it does is cut off coverage in the null(s). It doesn't strengthen it elsewhere like AM.

 

[w9wi]

Why would the FCC care about the number of FM stations with directional patterns? As I understand the situation, all it does is cut off coverage in the null(s). It doesn't strengthen it elsewhere like AM.

My speculation is that they're concerned about dramatically uneven coverage. It is hardly unusual to find an AM station that is perfectly listenable for 40 miles in one direction and completely gone in 5 miles in another direction, without the intervention of uneven terrain.