KMVN's numbers

[zumahans]

Wait a minute.

"With that much competiton, each station has to specialize. And with ad buys far more targeted to very specific demos, no station can be a generalist and no kind of music or talk format is broad enough to get wide ranges like Top 40 did in the 60's."

I thought no new formats have been created in the last 30 years.

Which is it?

 

[davideduardo]

Wait a minute.

"With that much competiton, each station has to specialize. And with ad buys far more targeted to very specific demos, no station can be a generalist and no kind of music or talk format is broad enough to get wide ranges like Top 40 did in the 60's."

I thought no new formats have been created in the last 30 years.

Which is it?

Now, where did I say that there were no new formats? Every new format, though, is a mutation or combination of formats that preceeded it. But there are plenty of new versions or adaptations.

Formats that did not exist in 1976: Urban AC, Smooth Jazz, CHurban, Adult Hits, Alternative Rock, All Sports, AAA, Classic Country, Rhythmic AC, Hot AC, about 5 Spanish language formats (regional, adult hits, tropical, Hurban, etc.) and so on.

The difference is that radio is evolutionary, not revolutionary... so everything is very gradual. Many "new" formats are actually transformations of older ones, based on changes in music, etc. But there certainly are new formats.

 

[zumahans]

You argued that formats were not splintering. Now you say they are "specializing".

In the "K-Earth 101 Having Thousand-Song Weekend (With No Repeats!)" thread, on November 06, 2006, at 09:04:26 pm, you said and I quote "formats are not splintering."

Formats are not splintering. Formats have not splintered since the 70's when FM became viable. Today, they just mutate as some die and others come on the scent.

Now you say they are "specializing."

When hard or progressive rock came out of late 60's Top 40, the Top 40's did not play anything but the very commercial cuts. So other stations, especially new independent FMs, took up that kind of music and created a new format... which evolved into AOR. Those who liked more familiar songs opened the way to oldies stations, and those who did not like harder stuff gave a base for AC. Top 40 spawned a half-dozen formats, and most of the listeners left Top 40 for good, making it a teen proposition... not the easiest thing to sell as ad buys went more and more after 25-54 and not 12-17 and 12-24.

Caught you, David, you did it again.

You can change your words, change your mind, change your name all you want. Consistant you are, in lecturing us from shifting viewpoints.

 

[davideduardo]

You argued that formats were not splintering. Now you say they are "specializing".

Now you say they are specializing.

Caught you, David, you did it again.

You can change your words, change your mind, change your name all you want. Consistant you are, in lecturing us from shifting viewpoints.

That may be what you read, but not what I have always believed; I said formats mutated. The difference is that a mutation is an evolutionary development based on derivitives. Formats have been mutating since the 1930's when local independent stations began offering alternatives to the national chains and regional nets like DonLee, IMN, Yankee, etc., began forming. What we have are new formats, like Smooth Jazz in 1986 or Urban AC, etc., and mutations of others, like AC becoming subdivided into gold based, hot AC, rhythmic AC, alternative AC, etc... mutations that are evolutionary, like varieties of turtles in the Galapagos.

Anyway, I was probably nit picking... from what I see, most people who post prefer to call this splintering, so I can accept that. I was simply trying to distinguish between new formats and those derived from base formats. Listening fragments and splinters based on available alternatives... but I think a different term should be used for format evolution.

 

[zumahans]

Gracious. Agreed. Thanks.

 

[john77]

hey now they are a robust #38 25-54 adults :

pretty sickening (but predictable)

Excellent!!! ;D

 

[john77]

KMVN was the station that really got the Rhythmic AC bandwagon rolling nationwide. Soon after KZLA flipped, MOVIN" became the trendy hot new format. Nobody even waited to see how KMVN would do before claiming it was the "hot" format.

Is rhythmic AC even a viable format or is it doing especially bad in LA because the market is saturated with similar stations. If the latter is true, wasn't Emmis aware of the market landscape? (although I realize KBIG made adjustments soon after MOVIN' came on).

We will see the same thing in San Francisco, CBS started MOVIN' in a market with several stations playing similar music.

What kind of tweaks, if any, could KMVN make to help improve their situation? Would playing more of the songs that were local hits on KPWR in the late 80s/early 90s help seperate MOVIN' from the pack or are these songs too unfamiliar now?

I'm of the opinion that this format can't work in this market in it's current landscape. Emmis just saw the opportunity for a quick buck and just didn't do their homework, pure and simple...

Unless they make it more contemporary sounding and get some better imagining, it's doomed to failure. 3 things they need to do to save this sinking shit:

1. Research... doesn't take a scientist to figure out what exactly was a "hit" in this market in the past... play the hits and the listeners will come.

2. Add some currents. The station sounds VERY stale right now. They have plenty of GOLD from artists that have current hits, I'm sure the people that like their old stuff aren't going to freak out if they play a new track from one of their "core" artists.

3. Better production/imaging/more emphasis on the Dees... The promotion done for this station has been beyond abysmal. They need to really get the Dees back in the spotlight here in L.A... almost to the point of shoving him in our faces...

 

[davideduardo]

1. Research... doesn't take a scientist to figure out what exactly was a "hit" in this market in the past... play the hits and the listeners will come.

Coleman did the research. It was tested against 25-44 Hispanic females, mostly.

2. Add some currents. The station sounds VERY stale right now. They have plenty of GOLD from artists that have current hits, I'm sure the people that like their old stuff aren't going to freak out if they play a new track from one of their "core" artists.

The core has no real interest in new music

3. Better production/imaging/more emphasis on the Dees... The promotion done for this station has been beyond abysmal. They need to really get the Dees back in the spotlight here in L.A... almost to the point of shoving him in our faces...

I'm assuming that the promotion is focused on the core... so you may not have noticed it.

 

[john77]

why was "S H I P" censored?

 

[john77]

1. Research... doesn't take a scientist to figure out what exactly was a "hit" in this market in the past... play the hits and the listeners will come.

Coleman did the research. It was tested against 25-44 Hispanic females, mostly.

2. Add some currents. The station sounds VERY stale right now. They have plenty of GOLD from artists that have current hits, I'm sure the people that like their old stuff aren't going to freak out if they play a new track from one of their "core" artists.

The core has no real interest in new music

3. Better production/imaging/more emphasis on the Dees... The promotion done for this station has been beyond abysmal. They need to really get the Dees back in the spotlight here in L.A... almost to the point of shoving him in our faces...

I'm assuming that the promotion is focused on the core... so you may not have noticed it.

It looks like the research that Coleman did wasn't very good, at least so far. I know plenty of 25-44's that are Hispanic (I work with a bunch of them) and they are PLENTY into new music. You know what the most common ringtone is in the office? It's the new Beyonce song! I GUARANTEE the listeners would L-O-V-E to hear stuff like Beyonce's "Irreplaceable" on the station, and I know the Dees would love to play it and the other current similar formatted stuff that would work there. The promotion may currently be focused on the core, but judging from the comments I've heard from more than one co-worker in the supposed "target audience", it isn't at all memorable and as they have said "wouldn't make me want to listen to the station".

 

[Marv-L.A.]

I don't see it working in San Francisco either, especially with two flame-throwin' rhythmic-oriented powerhouses still going strong going back to the eighties!!!!!

 

[halloaaryn]

OK, BACK TO KMVN please.

KMVN is showing higher ratings in the IE than KZLA has in years.....

KMVN is also showing the same amount of listeners in LA. I find it hard to believe that the same amount of ppl in the LA area listened to KMVN as did the IE. It just doesnt sound right.

Once again, I think the Arbitron rating system is completey flawed.

 

[ronkaram]

When you say a bigger disaster than KDL, I assume you mean Indie 103.1, as it's ratings are little more than half of the ratings of KDL, the dance station.

 

[davideduardo]

OK, BACK TO KMVN please.

KMVN is showing higher ratings in the IE than KZLA has in years.....

That is because there is a local country FM out there. Who would have listened to KZLA when they had Froggy?

KMVN is also showing the same amount of listeners in LA. I find it hard to believe that the same amount of ppl in the LA area listened to KMVN as did the IE. It just doesnt sound right.

Movin in the Inland Empire has a 0.7. It has a 0.6 in LA.

That number represents a share of those people listening to radio on average, 6 AM to Midnight, Monday to Sunday, not a finite number of persons.

The IE has about 1/6th the population 12+ of the LA MSA. So a 0.6 of LA is about 6 times as many people as a 0.6 in the IE.

The reason we use share to compare is that it allows comparison of stations, formats, companies, etc., in different sized markets. A share point is, simply, one percent of those people who are listening to the radio in the market. A share in LA might be about 17,000 persons, and in the IE, a share is about 2,600 persons.

Once again, I think the Arbitron rating system is completey flawed.

Since you do not even understand what a share is, you have no right to make this sort of comment. You have demonstrated a total lack of knowledge of ratings, Arbitron or otherwise. Read the Purple Book and then, when you understand the methodology and the terminology, you can start giving opinions.

 

[zumahans]

BS, DE.

We can give opinions whenever we want.

Who appointed you the grand judge as to when people can post opinions?

The reliance on ratings - which impresses no one except the other KoolAid drinkers in the industry - is so darn cute.

Those same ratings show that virtually no one listens to Ipods, streaming music or sat radio.

Arbitron ratings - flawed as they are - show an 11 percent drop in TSL, something YOU never mention.

In this era, your precious ratings are as antiquated as radio itself.. both in the death grips of new technology, both desperately clawing to maintain relevance.

 

[davideduardo]

BS, DE.

We can give opinions whenever we want.

Who appointed you the grand judge as to when people can post opinions?

Someone who thinks that a 0.6 in the IE is the same audience size as a 0.6 in LA and therefore calls Arbitron flawed needs to aks quesitons first, before judging.

Ratings are the currency of radio, and will be for a long time in the future... just as circulation is the currency of newspapers.

 

[RadioStarOne]

David types 140 words a minute a couple of errors is no big deal!

 

[surfdude]

Those of us who are actively programming must deal with the way things
are (Arbitron), not the way we would like them to be.
The advertising community accepts Arbitron ratings as reliable enough
to place their ads, and we try to manipulate them to the best of our ability.
That's reality.

 

[john77]

I see that school has been in session while I've been away. 8)

 

[BACKnUSSR]

So DE,

Can we safely assume that from your response that you believe Arbitron's methodology is unflawed?
I understand it as well as you do, and I have certainly have some issues with it.