KNX Los Angeles and KCBS San Francisco to Simulcast Overnight Programming

[Mark Roberts]

I love the insight into this topic, by the way.

So I have a good deal of experience with the infrastructure. Power was good and clean in most places... stable voltages, solid frequency. The issues were all about the fact that power plants had no redundancy, and insignificant reserve capacity.

In the period from the 70's through the 90's, it was uncommon to have a week go by when the power did not go out at least once. It improved by Y2K somewhat, but power did go out much more often than on the mainland. Much has to do with the fact that Puerto Rico, and island, is not connected to a regional power grid.

The only remedy that I know of would be to bury a DC connection to the Eastern grid into the ocean floor. That would be incredibly expensive, given the distances and jurisdictions involved.

We have seen what not being part of a wide grid has done in recent years in Texas, even though Texas is about 200 times larger than Puerto Rico.

Actually, Texas does have DC links that can be activated if needed. The separation of the Texas Interconnection from either the Western or Eastern Interconnection is a political decision done to avoid Federal Energy Regulatory Commission and associated entities' regulations. The Texas grid isn't synchronized with any other grid, but, obviously, synchronization isn't an issue where DC is involved.

Regarding telcos....

Yes, and for a while there were two, both gum'mint run, serving different areas. As I mentioned, it took weeks if not months to get a new landline.

And that was better than Ecuador, where I was told one to two years for a new line for my new radio station in 1964. We got several lines by buying the "rights" to them from the heirs of people who died or a business that closed.

The first I got, 234-595, cost me S/. 1,500 to purchase. That was the studio line for Radio Musical, HCRM, 570 AM which went on the air 61 years ago last Friday.

That reminds me of a skit that I read in a high-school Spanish class. Because of my interest in electronics, it stood out. It was about how difficult it was to get phone service in Mexico. This was in the 1970s. No one in the class quite believed it. Later, a college friend from Peru said, when I told him that, "oh, it's true!"

 

[Mark Roberts]

I can't believe anyone cares about "the". The only thing I'd be curious about is to unearth a few typical KNX traffic reports and see how often they use "the". I'll bet it's neither constant nor consistent. It'd be the logical word to cut for time. "101 northbound at Cauhenga", "405 southbound at Manchester"...

I'll go back to what Andy Ludlum said in post #62:

I don’t care how they mangle and confuse weather and traffic and legal IDs.

Yo tampoco.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I'll go back to what Andy Ludlum said in post #62

Yo tampoco.

I can't believe we have gone dozens of posts and several pages about traffic reports at 2:00 am, and whether the poor sap who has to do this job is using "the" correctly for his miniscule audience.

He could probably read from "Fifty Shades of Grey" on air during the traffic reports and it would still take days for anyone to notice.

 

[asugeorge1]

Being a KNX listener here in Southern California, it is kind of weird how they are doing this KCBS and KNX simulcast. For one, the wheel of news is now on the KCBS clock with traffic and weather together on the 8’s, sports at 15 and 45 and business news at 25 and 55, all times that we usually hear traffic and weather on KNX.

It is also bizarre how they are doing the transitions from LA to San Francisco traffic and weather. The woman doing the traffic (who was stumbling on the freeway number designations confusing the 55 with the 57) mentioned that the 5 through the San Fernando Valley was good and was clear north through the Central Valley and Tracy all the way to the 580 where there was problems in Oakland on the 580. Then for weather, the guy mentioned LA and Orange County fog clearing in the morning, but north in the Central Valley, fog will linger keeping temperatures in the 40’s while the Bay Area would see temperatures in the 50’s. Since when did listeners of KNX or KCBS start caring about the traffic and weather in the Central Valley? Are they just using the Central Valley as a transitional piece from So Cal to Nor Cal?

Finally, my last gripe came with the sports report where the guy giving the scores said that the Ducks and the Kings both lost, but the “good news” is that the Sharks won in overtime 6 goals to 5 (weird way to give a hockey score but I digress). News flash, people in LA and Southern California don’t see a team from the Bay Area winning as “good news.” You better not be saying that come baseball season when the Dodgers lose but, “good news” at least the Giants won!

 

[KMan]

The woman doing the traffic (who was stumbling on the freeway number designations confusing the 55 with the 57)

It's Kiffany again tonight, who has been a regular for over a year doing both markets. This isn't new for her!

 

[KMan]

I've been told by folks who would know that KNX will originate the overnight broadcasts on weekends. The decision to have KCBS originate on weeknights was likely due to the union scale being lower in SF.

The overnight early Sunday AM is originating from KCBS.

I have heard Art Sanders with some canned reports, but have not heard him anchoring any daypart. He may be shadowing to learn the KCBS clock if KNX is going to originate these broadcasts 2x per week.

Weekday anchor Brian Douglas did the Saturday evening shift on KNX which belonged to Bob Brill (the other overnight anchor) for years.

 

[michael hagerty]

Being a KNX listener here in Southern California, it is kind of weird how they are doing this KCBS and KNX simulcast. For one, the wheel of news is now on the KCBS clock with traffic and weather together on the 8’s, sports at 15 and 45 and business news at 25 and 55, all times that we usually hear traffic and weather on KNX.

It is also bizarre how they are doing the transitions from LA to San Francisco traffic and weather. The woman doing the traffic (who was stumbling on the freeway number designations confusing the 55 with the 57) mentioned that the 5 through the San Fernando Valley was good and was clear north through the Central Valley and Tracy all the way to the 580 where there was problems in Oakland on the 580. Then for weather, the guy mentioned LA and Orange County fog clearing in the morning, but north in the Central Valley, fog will linger keeping temperatures in the 40’s while the Bay Area would see temperatures in the 50’s. Since when did listeners of KNX or KCBS start caring about the traffic and weather in the Central Valley? Are they just using the Central Valley as a transitional piece from So Cal to Nor Cal?

Finally, my last gripe came with the sports report where the guy giving the scores said that the Ducks and the Kings both lost, but the “good news” is that the Sharks won in overtime 6 goals to 5 (weird way to give a hockey score but I digress). News flash, people in LA and Southern California don’t see a team from the Bay Area winning as “good news.” You better not be saying that come baseball season when the Dodgers lose but, “good news” at least the Giants won!

The only person on this thread truly qualified to do this is Andy Ludlum (because, y'know---PD at KFWB and then KNX---and director of operations at Metro Traffic for the Southern California region before that).

It would be a hell of a problem to have corporate hand you---broadcast live simultaneously to listeners in San Francisco and L.A.---and there is no perfect solution.

My guess is that Audacy made it less perfect by adding "and don't spend any money."

The silly regionalisms that people want to make issues of ("the" before freeway names, sports rivalries) don't make it any easier. And there's no good way around them in a simulcast.

You could originate from KNX on KNX's clock and just make the smaller station in the smaller market (KCBS) live with it, but that smaller market is still seven million people and I've been told that Audacy saves more money the way they're doing it.

This is something they thought they could do because it's the same state. But the two cities are almost 400 miles apart.

 

[Mark Roberts]

I can't believe we have gone dozens of posts and several pages about traffic reports at 2:00 am, and whether the poor sap who has to do this job is using "the" correctly for his miniscule audience.

Been here long?

Followed by ...

It is also bizarre how they are doing the transitions from LA to San Francisco traffic and weather. The woman doing the traffic (who was stumbling on the freeway number designations confusing the 55 with the 57) mentioned that the 5 through the San Fernando Valley was good and was clear north through the Central Valley and Tracy all the way to the 580 where there was problems in Oakland on the 580. Then for weather, the guy mentioned LA and Orange County fog clearing in the morning, but north in the Central Valley, fog will linger keeping temperatures in the 40’s while the Bay Area would see temperatures in the 50’s. Since when did listeners of KNX or KCBS start caring about the traffic and weather in the Central Valley? Are they just using the Central Valley as a transitional piece from So Cal to Nor Cal?

I have to admire the persistence of someone who would stay up late and keep track of all of that. As for me, I'll get a good night's sleep and enjoy life.

There's a larger point in this thread about emergency preparedness, which I think has already been thoroughly discussed, but the rest of it is just digging into minor details. This is not like a computer program that you have to debug.

 

[michael hagerty]

There's a larger point in this thread about emergency preparedness, which I think has already been thoroughly discussed, but the rest of it is just digging into minor details. This is not like a computer program that you have to debug.

Yeah, but...

These stations do have audiences in these hours (and let's remember that this is eight straight hours starting at 9:00 p.m.). Are they risking regular listeners? At what point do you run up against "I used to always listen to KNX/KCBS but then they started doing all this stuff in parts of the state I've never even heard of and it takes forever to hear the thing in a traffic report that I care about..."

And then that person starts checking Twitter instead of the radio after an earthquake.

Again, I don't think anyone in L.A. will freak if there's no "the" before a freeway. I think they've gotta be going nuts if there are red lights ahead and they're hearing about traffic on 101 in Petaluma.

Andy's right. It's a mistake and it's not going to end well. There are things I can think of that would make it somewhat better, but by no means ideal or even necessarily good, and they'd all cost money.

 

[Mark Roberts]

This is something they thought they could do because it's the same state. But the two cities are almost 400 miles apart.

Probably handed down from an East Coast office by people ignorant of any geography west of Pittsburgh.

It would be tough even if SF and LA were closer together. In another thread some time ago, there was a discussion of iHeart's regionalized newsrooms. So I took a listen to some of iHeart's more far-flung stations in Colorado that were getting their newscasts from the Denver newsroom. For example, the newscast for KCSJ in Pueblo was entirely composed of Denver stories. Aside from state-government stories, it was unlikely that the Denver stories would've been of interest to a Pueblo listener. Pueblo is about 110 miles south of Denver.

Even public radio in Colorado has to deal with this. Colorado Public Radio News makes a valiant effort to cover as many bases as it can, but I can tell you that, as a Denver listener, I'm unsatisfied with the coverage that results. To my ears, it seems like CPR News covers Colorado Springs more thoroughly than it does Denver. CPR at least maintains a website focused on Denver news, so I think there's some recognition of the difficulties involved. And I haven't even gotten into Western Slope coverage.

If you regionalize your news operation, you're going to give up local flavor. It's a compromise, and compromises by definition aren't perfect. You don't make a compromise to improve the quality of your product. You do it because of other considerations.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Andy's right. It's a mistake and it's not going to end well. There are things I can think of that would make it somewhat better, but by no means ideal or even necessarily good, and they'd all cost money.

I agree with you and Andy on that point. Even though I think I'm as fierce a defender of broadcast news as anyone, I realize that the people making these decisions aren't likely to reverse them unless and until the mistake becomes blazingly apparent. Hence the linkage to emergency preparedness, because that's most likely when the faults (in more way than one) will become apparent.

To quote Warren Buffett, "Only when the tide goes out do you learn who has been swimming naked".

 

[TheBigA]

It would be a hell of a problem to have corporate hand you---broadcast live simultaneously to listeners in San Francisco and L.A.---and there is no perfect solution.

It's not impossible. Serious, knowledgeable, experienced news people are able to cover news without falling into the local trap. It sounds to me that the people at KCBS haven't been coached correctly. They may not be "on board" with the idea. Or perhaps they're suffering from "local bias." It's something that can be coached and taught to avoid. National news reporters know it and avoid it every day.

One idea I'd suggest is to not attempt to be local for both cities. Focus mainly on news that affects the entire state. Broaden the picture.

Probably handed down from an East Coast office by people ignorant of any geography west of Pittsburgh.

I've worked for a lot of big radio companies, and what I've seen is that budgets are executed locally. That's why you have regional VPs and market managers. They're the one responsible for executing budgets. The problem for KNX is how do they manage declining ad revenues and rising talent costs, especially in a union shop? This is how. It just needs to be better managed.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Andy's right. It's a mistake and it's not going to end well. There are things I can think of that would make it somewhat better, but by no means ideal or even necessarily good, and they'd all cost money.

Probably handed down from an East Coast office by people ignorant of any geography west of Pittsburgh.

It just occurred to me, after reading both of your posts, that we probably should have seen something like this coming when WCBS became WHSQ.

 

[TheBigA]

It just occurred to me, after reading both of your posts, that we probably should have seen something like this coming when WCBS became WHSQ.

What happened before that was a merging of the news departments at WCBS and WINS. But yes, that's a great example, and listeners complained about that too. This is a big problem, and can't be solved by retaining the status quo. The only way to maintain staffing is to increase revenue, and the only option these stations have to do that is add more commercials. Or hold the line on salaries. Who wants to vote for that?

 

[K.M. Richards]

You bring up something that has been kicking around in my mind for a long time now, A.

Radio audiences have never understood that we are not in the news or entertainment business. We are in the advertising business. We always have been. Our job -- yours and mine and so many others' -- is to create program content that attracts and holds a saleable audience.

I've shared this conversation before, but it's relevant in context so I will repeat it. It's the one I have practically every time someone in my private life finds out what I do for a living:

Person: Oh, so you are one of the people who decided that KXXX keeps playing the same 200 songs over and over until they are burnt to a crisp?
Me: We play the songs that people want to hear ...
Person: Well, you don't play my favorite songs.
Me: We play the songs that are in a consensus by our regular listeners.
Person: Well, no one could listen all day and not get tired of hearing the same songs three times a day.
Me: Wait. Do you listen for long periods of time, or do you come and go several times a day, listening for only 20 minutes or so each time?
Person (now trying to prove they know more than I do): I listen all day, and so do most of your audience!
Me: Um, no. The ratings show that people like you are the exception, not the rule.
Person: Well, I am still your customer, so you need to ...
Me (having to interrupt before the person goes forward with that misconception): No, the radio station is my customer. They are the ones who pay me, not you.
Person: Then I am the radio station's customer and they should tell you ...
Me: Stop. No, you aren't.
Person: Then who is?
Me: The radio station's customers are the advertisers. They pay the station to run their commercials, which is how we can broadcast without having to find some way to charge the listeners.
Person: So what does that make me?
Me: You are the product we sell to the advertisers. We sell commercial time based on the size of the audience.
Person: I don't like that idea. How long has this been the case?
Me: As long as there has been radio.

At that point, the person either walks away in anger, or I walk away before things get out of hand.

-----

If the audience ever understood this (and I am convinced that they never have), they would have tolerated the stopsets more and not gone off in search of something "that will play my music without all of those annoying commercials".

That's how we got here, and there is little we could have done differently to prevent it.

 

[TheBigA]

That's how we got here, and there is little we could have done differently to prevent it.

Unless we develop an alternate revenue stream. All of radio's problems, as far as limited playlists, too long stopsets, cutting local talent, combing of news staffs, and reliance on Nielsen, are ALL because of one thing: Radio's only revenue stream is advertising. Until there's an alternative, we will see things continue in this direction. It's all about the money. Either cut costs or increase revenue.

A few years ago, I saw Audacy hired a national VP of news. My first thought when I saw it was they're going to nationalize their all-news stations. It didn't happen then. But it's starting to happen now. The bad news is that nationalization of news isn't a real solution. I have friends in the national radio biz, and they tell me the advertising depression in local markets is worse for national sales. There is no relief if the only revenue stream is advertising. Things will not improve.

 

[michael hagerty]

In the early 1980s, Frazer Smith on KLOS did "theme" shows---usually a rip-off of a popular movie, which he'd then only loosely tie into in increasingly insane bits between records.

One morning he did "JAWS". And he was chumming the water by "tossing a listener" overboard.

He even had a custom jingle done for that one day:

(cheery jingle singers)

"Good mor-ning

(pause)

You're shark bait."

That (to K.M.'s point) is the reality---the listener is bait radio stations use to catch advertisers.

 

[TheBigA]

That (to K.M.'s point) is the reality---the listener is bait radio stations use to catch advertisers.

Absolutely. But here's the problem with that: We don't know who the listeners are. We don't have their names or phone numbers. We just know their demographics. When you don't have that kind of personal relationship, they don't feel invested. So they can stop listening, and there's nothing we can do about it. That's why I often say we program to the people who listen. Not to the mass population.

Public radio is different. They have members. The stations have contact info on those members. They hold membership events, and the members feel invested. It'll be interesting to see how members of Arkansas PBS respond to their state government ending its affiliation with PBS. I bet it won't be pretty.

 

[KilowattKat]

Been here long?

Followed by ...


I have to admire the persistence of someone who would stay up late and keep track of all of that. As for me, I'll get a good night's sleep and enjoy life.

There's a larger point in this thread about emergency preparedness, which I think has already been thoroughly discussed, but the rest of it is just digging into minor details. This is not like a computer program that you have to debug.

If you don't like what you're reading, there are plenty of threads out there not talking about late night traffic reports that should be more to your liking...Sorry, we can't all post to your liking.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Y’know, I was actually ignoring this thread today until I was notified of the preceding post.